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The problem is that minimum wage is linked to the minimum income it is predicted that will allow for a person to live on. As it rises, so too does the cost of goods and services (though inflation, supply and demand, etc more so than the rise in minimum wage I would imagine).

Thus people on minimum wage are facing a loosing battle in terms of increased wage vs increased cost of living.

Though as you say, by increasing the wage above the rate of inflation, we should hopefully mitigate those factors and make it a relatively fair wage for the least well paid jobs. Though I am sure people will still be happier on benefits than working...

I for one would be interested in bringing back some form of national service. The first areas of call for the new recruits would probably be dicipline, followed by training in how to run the postal service, and public transport services.

Renationalise the rail and bus networks and get them running properly with the aid of National Service workers.

SilverMK2 wrote:I for one would be interested in bringing back some form of national service. The first areas of call for the new recruits would probably be dicipline, followed by training in how to run the postal service, and public transport services.

Renationalise the rail and bus networks and get them running properly with the aid of National Service workers.

This sounds like a pretty good idea, we could use something like this in California... ... fething California.

As I understand it, your economy is doing quite a bit better than ours, especially in certain areas. I could be projecting a little bit here, but that article definitely spoke to what I was talking about.

To be entirely honest, I can understand entirely why someone would simply get fed up trying to get by on minimum wage, after spending years training for a career. When it comes to people who do not apply themselves to their studies at all, I can't imagine them doing anything but lower wage jobs at any rate. What it sounds like though, is that there simply is not enough work to employ all of the people who go in for degrees. On top of this, many are likely to receive little to no solid career guidance, making their transition from school into the economy, that much worse.

I would go into the emotional aspects of what many would consider failure, and how those emotions left untended can lead directly to depression and suicide. This is a very heavy subject, and most just ignore it entirely. For a kid growing up in a slum, they will be more than likely to pick up behavior patterns (just as any of us do, within whatever environments we were raised in) and continue the trail set by their parents. With guidance and support, many of the people facing this type of negative environment can go onto further themselves, and their communities.

Many of the popular degrees (usually humanities) appear to me (an engineering graduate) as essentially a waste of 3-4 years. Labour has tried to shove as many people through university as possible in the last decade, but has given no real thought as to what kind of degrees people would be doing, or creating any jobs for people with degrees.

As a result, there is a huge number of people with degrees which have no appreciable practical use other than to demonstrate (to one extent or another) the holders ability to study. It also means that now a large number of entry level jobs for pretty much anything require graduate level applicants (rather than pretty much anyone who can stand upright).

And as you said, because so little thought was put into the policy, and so little career guidance is given, many people come out of university and fall on their faces (and then get crushed by their debt).

The whole thing is compiled at the moment by the ecconomy, meaning that many companies are laying off relatively experienced staff (compared to new graduates or school leavers), who are then competing for jobs with the educated but inexperienced, and usually taking the job, leading to high levels of young person unemployment being seen.

The increase in University Graduates is one thing, but the work markets expectations are quite another. A friend of mine is highly trained in Graphic Design, yet cannot find a job in that field. It's not that the jobs aren't there, they are, it's more that even the most junior position demands 'at least one years professional experience'.

This I personally blame on a sort of 'old boys network' of sorts. It's a sad fact that even in this enlightened day and age, it's still as much who you know, as what you know. I can't really criticise it too heavily myself, as I essentially kicked in the back door to start my IT Career. Working as an Office Junior for my old Secondary School, and two weeks in the IT Technician is fired for being a douche. Head Teacher offers me the role, despite knowing as much as anyone I was totally unqualified to do the job. He said that wasn't a problem, and that they'd train me on the job, which they did. With hindsight, this was an extremely jammy opportunity which I seized with both hands, and when I've recounted it in the pub, I've had people fall out with me because they have degrees in IT, yet cannot get even the most basic job.

It's an odd world we live in right now, sort of a bridging point between the old ways, and the new ways. Now when that bridge ends, I dunno, but I hope it does. Time to move away from nepotism and embrace a meritcoracy in the work place. Largely against human nature I know, but it can happen.

It is very important to show people that they can actually accomplish something worthwhile by showing exactly what they can do.

I have been trying to get into an apprenticeship for a ludicrously long time, finding only dead ends where I should have progressed into full journeyman status by now. The only people I know personally that are doing well in their chosen professions, are at least twice my age, and have positions that they are very unlikely to lose. Over time, this has only worsened the outlook of my career, especially when I see professionals with decades of experience lacking work entirely.

I am a hard worker, and I enjoy hard work, not something most can say. I just cannot compete effectively with most jobs being better suited for outsourcing on the whole of it. This is the main reason that I chose design, regardless of what kind of menial work I will end up locking myself out of. Getting a job at Mcdonalds, aside from being a job I would despise, will be next to literally impossible when I finish my degree.

I would like to see those numbers, but since I cannot trust government data... the cycle continues.

You're right, it's much better to trust an Amercian Conservative Christian website for accurate figures on Britain's unemployment issues .

On top of this, many are likely to receive little to no solid career guidance, making their transition from school into the economy, that much worse.

Based on...?

The careers service at my University is very good.
MDG has a very good point that expectations of students are too high in our education system - it seems that a good 80% of students on my course think that they will become succesful recording artists after finishing University, but the fact is that pretty much none of them will, including myself. There are people I study with who just barely merit the term 'musician', and who shouldn't be here. But I support the drive to get young people into education, someone from my background would have found it extremely difficult 20-30 years ago. I do actually the think the Tories have some good ideas on education, vis a vis the Engineering Schools they plan to open.

For a kid growing up in a slum, they will be more than likely to pick up behavior patterns (just as any of us do, within whatever environments we were raised in) and continue the trail set by their parents. With guidance and support, many of the people facing this type of negative environment can go onto further themselves, and their communities.

Finally! THIS is the whole point. It's not that there are no jobs - rather, it's the culture of social class they grow up in, that diminishes their appetite for hard work.

Finally! THIS is the whole point. It's not that there are no jobs - rather, it's the culture of social class they grow up in, that diminishes their appetite for hard work.

It is that there are very few jobs, of which I am sure you have worked all of them, knowing fully well that only you can have an opinion about this. I have no data pertaining to the actual state of your economy, I just picked something that looked rather on point, and I put it out there.

I do think that both of us are on a much more realistic page than GBF and Mad Doc at this point.

Providing appropriate services (which would include cutting of people that are actually in the wrong from welfare) to further the positive economic contributions from these communities (and society as a whole), is a great place to start. I just wanted to make it entirely clear to this thread, that ideas that border on genocide (besides possibly breaking Dakka Rules) are not only ludicrous, but completely inappropriate.

On a side note, I would like to know your opinion about the situation in Israel Ablatross. Just a random question.

This thread needs more angst.

G

And one way of breaking the cycle, and to my mind the most effective way, is enforced birth control.

The thread needs more Rock


and Overkill


And just a hint of regret

Wrexasaur wrote:If that fails, grab some lemons, and make lemonade. I met a bloke who made a whole 5 dollars, and it only took him an entire day. If that isn't something to be proud of, I don't know what is.

You Sir, made me laugh!

I'd make vodka sours but there is that whole "gotta have a liquor license and cant sell to minors bs"...$5 per sour for 50 cents worth of liquor and lemonade, just like the bars do it.

It is that there are very few jobs, of which I am sure you have worked all of them, knowing fully well that only you can have an opinion about this.

@Wrex - You're right! I've worked at every possible job in the UK - you may have seen me on the news . But seriously, yes, there are fewer jobs in certain sectors obviously, and no, I'm not trying to say that only my opinion counts in this matter, if that's what youre driving at. My position is this: Not ALL people on benefits are scumbags, but there is a relatively large number of people in many communities who can work, who choose not to. These people are not contributing to the 'Greater Good' of British society, and are raising a generation of kids who will not succed in education or in the workplace because they are following bad examples. According to official figures, nearly 5 million people have never had a job under this Labour government!

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1209072/Five-million-job-Labour--raising-fears-Shameless-generation-benefit-addicts.html


As for population problems being solved by dropping birth-control gas on African villages - apart from the fact it's totally degrading and racist, infant mortality rates are ridiculously high in sub-saharan Africa - 1 in every 6 children dies before the age of five.

Almost half of all deaths of children under five occurred in sub-Saharan Africa. Yet only 22 percent of children were born there.

this is taken from: http://www.wsws.org/articles/2008/jan2008/mort-j31.shtml

I think it's us we should be worrying about.

As for Israel - meh. Creating the country has proven to be a monumental error, to put it in (perhaps) overly simplistic terms. I have absolutely NO time for Zionism, and the settlement building needs to stop YESTERDAY.

Albatross wrote:My position is this: Not ALL people on benefits are scumbags, but there is a relatively large number of people in many communities who can work, who choose not to. These people are not contributing to the 'Greater Good' of British society, and are raising a generation of kids who will not succed in education or in the workplace because they are following bad examples. According to official figures, nearly 5 million people have never had a job under this Labour government!

This sounds like a huge problem with your welfare system.

Dailymail wrote:The Crompton family, nicknamed 'Britain's Biggest Freeloaders' by their neighbours in Hull, live in a seven-bed house and get £33,000 a year.

Harry Crompton, 51, has been out of work for 15 years and his wife Tracey, 41, has never had a job. Yet thanks to the generosity of the welfare state they receive £32,656 a year.

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1209072/Five-million-job-Labour--raising-fears-Shameless-generation-benefit-addicts.html#ixzz0XYFjiqPV

I mean seriously... is this for real? How in the feth are they allowed to get away with this? Do these people have serious physical ailments?

Besides the fact that seems like the worst of most cases, it is really quite amazing that they are allowed to do this. That is an awful lot of money, to sit around doing nothing, teaching your kids to sit around and do nothing...

@Wrex - See? SEE? NOW do you get why I froth at the mouth about this stuff?
I don't disagree that it is a problem with the benefits system - I just feel that this has spread apathy amongst a pretty large section of our society.

To be entirely fair, it is two people, with... umm... their 10 children... or 9... I can't tell...

That could very well be what is required to take care of the bare minimum necessities. 11-12 people need an awful lot of stuff to survive. I am just trying to imagine a reason why they would both be eligible. After I dunno... the fifth kid or something, the state should have slapped them about a bit.

The kids have to be the main reason that they receive so much in benefits. It costs an awful lot of money to raise a single child... let alone near a bakers dozen.

Read the novel entitled Atlas Shrugged by Ann Rand (sp?). It is going to happen and I could see this seriously in the next 10 - 15 years. She was a bit of a facist so don't take it personally if you happen to have a leftist bent.

G

I think one of the main problems when it comes to the whole 'find a job' thing, is that if you want to gain qualifications whilst unemployed, you have to take some seriously convoluted routes to do so, none of which you are actually informed exist by the Job Centre. I mean, my Job Centre advisor had no information on apprenticeships when I asked about them, for example.

With regards to the more standard qualifications route though, it's a bloody joke. I was going to do an Access to Teaching course this academic year. 15 hours a week so I could still claim my Jobseekers Allowance, and then go on to better and brighter things. However, I never started the course- not because I didn't want to, but because the Job Centre wouldn't let me. Because I'm on New Deal, I have to be available to go on one of their 13 week jobsearch/training courses at the drop of a hat, and if you don't go then they stop your benefits. So therefore, instead of spending the last week doing something I want to do in order to progress my life, I've been sitting in a room full of people who have basically given up and decided 'screw it, I'll live on the dole, because it's easier'. And I'm there for the next 12 weeks as well.

Now as it goes, the work placement I'll be going on through this course sounds like it'll be in the fields I want to go into (teaching/social work), and I'm hoping I'll be able to develop it into an actual job, but you can't say that it's right that I had to not go into training that I wanted to do to instead do something I didn't want to do, purely because that's how the system works. Oh, the other problem: single male living alone with no dependants = sweet bugger all help should you want to go to college, but if you're a single mum with a kid they'll keep paying your housing benefit for you.

As to the actual 'Desperate Measures':

Overpopulation: One child/set of naturally occurring multiple children per couple, after passing a basic yet rigourous competency exam and being able to prove that you can support said child without state handouts.

Crime getting out of hand: Bring back the death penalty, and decriminalise every single illegal drug. Make prostitution legal. Actually make the punishment fit the crime, and stop all this 'Oh yeah, you're in jail for 7 years, but you'll probably be out after two and a half' crap we're forever hearing about. I also think that no matter what your age, if you commit a crime your name should be allowed to be made public, I'm getting sick of all these reports containing the words ''The 17-year old, who cannot be named for legal reasons''. If you commit a crime, you should be prepared to accept the potential societal backlash, no matter your age.

Dragonlover