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One of the things we were talking about in my group just recently was a discussion on if sideboards would be good or bad for the game in general and tourneys in particular.

The basic idea, for those not familiar with it (and I am just picking arbitrary numbers that make sense at a glance), is that you have a "core" part of your army (not to be confused with wfb core) and then two or three optional wings/reserves/whatever.

An example will clarify considerably.

1500 point "core" 250 point "sideboard" for 40k

or

1900 point "core" 325 point "sideboard" for fantasy.

This lets you customize your list a little bit when you see what you are facing but also lets them do the same.

So, what are your thoughts on the idea?

I like the principal of this but as long as allies are allowed it makes Daemons almost unplayable.

Instead of a side board what's wrong with bringing a well rounded all-comers list and playing a bunch of games against different opponents?

I think that under this format that allies would certainly be disallowed. There is nothing wrong with the tourneys as they are, we were just talking about ways of possibly changing things around a bit and it seemed like an interesting idea. One of the "balancers" we were just tossing around was that the sideboard must be held in reserve, so you get a bit of flexibility but then you are paying for it by it being off table.

Do "sideboards" include wargear on the "core" units?

I voted no, since I thought this would be way too complicated for whfb (which I've switched over to completely now) with all of the magic items and army specific items. If I'm facing dwarves, I take the "hates dwarves" banner... if I'm facing wood elves, I take lots of magic weapons... seems to complicated!

If you didn't mean wargear on the core units, just adjusting the units in the sidebar, it's easier... but still a bit too complicated for my tastes! It also takes away from building an "all-comers" list for a tournament.

Obviously it wouldn't be "Here's my Ultramarine army, and my side-board of Orks", but I like the idea of sideboards from the same army.

How would you do it? Everyone has a 1000 point list, and then two 550 "extra" bits that they can swap in and out at will?

We've actually run a few tournaments in Denver with that format. The basic premise was a 1500pt list with 2 optional 250pt lists. Or you give the person the ability to make a 1750 list and not do the detatchment.

Some people used it some didn't. In general I never heard any complaints and everyone seemed fine with it. It's nice to help level out the horde vs. mech aspect you see a lot, since some of the older armies, cough tau, could use a bit of help.

I think it was actually one of your batreps that got me to thinking about it. I will have to go back and reread them and send it to my group.

edit: oh yeah, and no, you can't change wargear, strictly new units and you still have to abide by the normal restrictions from force org.

@hbmc - yeah that is the basic idea - I like the idea of it being limited percent wise to something not more than 25% just so the core army building for the tourney is still there but if we play test it, that might be shown to be the wrong amount.

So a Daemons army could swap out:
- Flamers for Hounds,
- Horrors for Bloodletters, or
- Herald on Jugger for Herald on Disc
depending on who it's facing?

"Oh, he's only got Scroll Caddies - I guess I'll take more Letters / Jugger"

"Oh, he's mostly skirmish & ranged - I guess I'll take more Hounds"

What joy!

That's a problem with Fantasy Daemons John, not sideboards.

Try to see the discussion for what it is...

RiTides wrote:Do "sideboards" include wargear on the "core" units?

I voted no, since I thought this would be way too complicated for whfb (which I've switched over to completely now) with all of the magic items and army specific items. If I'm facing dwarves, I take the "hates dwarves" banner... if I'm facing wood elves, I take lots of magic weapons... seems to complicated!

If you didn't mean wargear on the core units, just adjusting the units in the sidebar, it's easier... but still a bit too complicated for my tastes! It also takes away from building an "all-comers" list for a tournament.

Yeah I wouldn't think wargear substitutions would be remotely practical, just extra units in the sidebar.

I think in an environment with sideboards you'd still have to work with "all-comers" in your core list but it would allow for some specialty units that you might not otherwise consider. Units like Leman Russ Punishers come to mind or maybe a Collossus or Assault Terminator unit or something.

I'd run it something like this:

1450 Core List:

CCS Melta x4 Chimera
Vet Squad Plasma x3 Chimera
Vet Squad Plasma x3 Chimera
Vet Squad Plasma x3 Chimera
LRBT x2
LRBT x2
Vendetta
Guardsman Marbo

300 Point Sideboard 1 (anti mech):

CCS Melta x4 Chimera
Leman Russ Vanquisher

300 Point Sideboard 2 (anti infantry):

Leman Russ Punisher
Psyker Battle Squad w Chimera

So basically you setup the 1450 list as normal and have the option to hold whatever in reserve, and then declare which sideboard you are using and you must put that in reserve. Then you start the game.

also, conversely, in fantasy, you could choose to only include caddies in your sideboard and then not use them at all if you didn't need them, right? or you could have one caddie in your normal list and then your sideboards are a general or a wizard lord.

edit: yeah, Kevin Nash nailed the intent.

Mine was

anti-mech
15 screamers

anti-infantry
horrors and the scribes

definitely can add a bit of interest to what you see on the table.

Seems like it might make games as a whole a bit tighter, as you are less likely to meet the paper to your rock, as it were.

Keep in mind that any tool that you give to a player will only be used for ill.

The best use of a sideboard is to totally hose your opponent with great counters - e.g. Meltas for Mech vs Plasmas for Infantry, or to transform your army entirely - 20 extra SMs or add 8 Transports.

Personally, I'm a big fan of transformational sideboards, because you totally screw with your opponent's head that way.

I think most serious tourney players design their list to the standard number of points. Looks like there is suddenly no longer standard. I prefer no sideboard but I am not opposed to it either Somn.

G

GW did this for the GTs one year, and we (the IFL) do an annual sideboard tourney. It's an interesting format, and you can 'gimmick' it so that the players have to think ahead. Say round one they get to choose but round two they MUST use the sideboard they did not choose for round 1. Or you field your sideboards but the entire core MUST start in reserves. And so on.

As for organizing the sideboards, we've found that only allowing complete units, ie no equipment upgrades or add-ons to units in the core allowed, but you can add an entire unit to a force org slot, so you could add a dedicated transport to an existing core unit. And of course it's OK to add a completely new Force Org slot/unit. And always include the possibility that they might have to field the entire army, core and both sideboards, so the whole shebang has to be a single legal force org.

Huh i like this idea even esp. as stated in the previous post that way it throws a monkey wrench into peoples normal game so that way the really good generals can work around it.

Hmm, now that I see what you're talking about more, I like it better. This is actually how I try to build my lists, anyway- units that do not change adding up to say 1500 points, and then adding two completely new units (not changing the old ones) to go up to 2000, etc.

Cool idea... I'm changing my vote!

The sideboard concept is actually quite old for GW games. Not officially, but many people such as myself have utilized the concept for quite sometime in both friendly and competitive environments.

I enjoy the idea (mostly because I used to play M:tG) but I have seen some resistance to the idea over the last decade.

In short, if it makes the game fun for you then go for it.

I think it works very well in a tourney environment because you get less cheese lists in everybodys "all-comers" lists.

Wow. Dead split, it seems. I have no tourney experience, but I really like the sideboard idea, in theory. It adds the necessity of on-the-fly restructuring of plans, helps avoid rock-paper-scissors games, and encourages players to add a bit of extra tactical flavor to a core take-all-comers list. Sounds good to me.

I think we can safely assume that a good number of those voting against sideboards are people who both dislike tournaments and therefore see sideboards only as another way of list-tailoring/gaining an advantage at a tournament.

H.B.M.C. wrote:I think we can safely assume that a good number of those voting against sideboards are people who both dislike tournaments and therefore see sideboards only as another way of list-tailoring/gaining an advantage at a tournament.

I think we can assume no such thing.

I'm Neutral. It would be good to have an on-the-spot army tailor, but some people are just gonna find an excuse with it to do something stupid.

H.B.M.C. wrote:I think we can safely assume that a good number of those voting against sideboards are people who both dislike tournaments and therefore see sideboards only as another way of list-tailoring/gaining an advantage at a tournament.

Nope.

I think that you should have one list to take all comers. Seeing every Imperial army bust out Inquisitors with mystics and psychic hoods every time they run out into Daemons/Eldar is just wrong.

MarvinGayeIsMyDaddy wrote:I think that you should have one list to take all comers. Seeing every Imperial army bust out Inquisitors with mystics and psychic hoods every time they run out into Daemons/Eldar is just wrong.

Which has all of nothing to do with that I said, and essentially shows that you do see sideboards as a way for tournament gamers to tailor their lists.

Agamemnon2 wrote:

H.B.M.C. wrote:I think we can safely assume that a good number of those voting against sideboards are people who both dislike tournaments and therefore see sideboards only as another way of list-tailoring/gaining an advantage at a tournament.

I think we can assume no such thing.

I think we can assume a good number of WAACjob howlers would not like sideboards because it leaves the possibility of someone taking a trump card for their one trick pony goombah lists.

I think a lot of people might not like it since they're not familiar with it, but not necessarily because they don't like tournaments!

Like I said, I've warmed to the idea... and now that I see what you're talking about, it's how I build my lists anyway (adding blocks of points, whether it is 250 or 500, to an already existing core).

I voted no. I like the idea in theory, but I believe that, in practice, it would give the more flexible codexes too much of an advantage.

Marines, for example, can make some very simple tradeouts that make them extremely effective versus just about anyone else. If they know what they're facing, they've just got a huge number of choices available to them. Each tactical squad can choose between any number of weapons, as needed. Drop pods could be replaced with rhinos for a zero-point exchange. Predators and Land Speeders (and even Land Raiders) can select weapons that give them better game versus hordes or mech, versus long-range or short-range opponents. A marine army that is geared to face a horde army can change very easily to cope with a multiple land-raider force. They can run a Librarian against psychic opponents, but trade it out for a chaplain against opponents with no psychic powers.

Orks, on the other hand, have two weapon options in most cases (rokkits or big shootas). They don't have any good options if they run into a multiple land raider opponent. They have no psychic defense available, so they can't sideboard one against a psychic-heavy army.

I think this would end up hurting tournaments more than helping. As it is, if you want a psychic defense, you need to spend those points, even if you're not playing against a psyker. I think this adds a degree of balance to those other codexes that don't even have the option.

I don't like the idea of it, not for TTWG in general.

When it comes to things like Magic, and the sheer variety you can meet, it makes some sense. After all, an anti-Sliver card or four on your sideboard can help prevent a walk over.

But in these games? Most of the really pokey lists work within the restrictions. Making a sideboard makes this even easier for the beard masters, and indeed would make the Tournament again more 'what you got' than 'how you use it' for my tastes.

One day, I hope to be able to find a Tournament where common decency prevents the overtly hard lists, and I can just get down to playing a fun game with a new opponent. YMMV!

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:I don't like the idea of it, not for TTWG in general.

When it comes to things like Magic, and the sheer variety you can meet, it makes some sense. After all, an anti-Sliver card or four on your sideboard can help prevent a walk over.

But in these games? Most of the really pokey lists work within the restrictions. Making a sideboard makes this even easier for the beard masters, and indeed would make the Tournament again more 'what you got' than 'how you use it' for my tastes.

One day, I hope to be able to find a Tournament where common decency prevents the overtly hard lists, and I can just get down to playing a fun game with a new opponent. YMMV!

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