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What with all the talk about Tervigons and their interactions with Termagants I thought it would be interesting to brainstorm some ideas about how to hasten Tervigoni to their graves.

So far the best ideas I can come up with are:

1. Equipping a model bearing an Instant Death weapon with a Jump Pack and jumping over a Termagant screen and trusting to luck.

2. Using a clean and sweep tactic by which a unit armed with template weapons clears the Termagant screen to allow a unit to shoot or assault the Tervigon.

3. Disgusting amounts of direct firepower, like a Loota squad, Devastator squad, Havoc Squad, or Long Fangs. Maybe Scouts (Eldar or Space Marines), Sternguard, or Chosen.

Marker lights to negate cover save, massed tau firepower to seal the deal. Use excess marketlight hits for seeker missles.

JoTWW or Eldar Mind War == dead. Just pull up in a transport and nuke itt.

Vendettas seem like they'd do the job nicely.

I don't think a Mind War is going to be terribly effective against a T6 W6 Ld10 creature (someone correct these numbers if I'm wrong).

Jaws of the World Wolf? Yeah, that one's a bit obvious, but not really a tactic so much as a strategy to be discussed in the army list forum. Directing disgusting amounts of firepower counts as a tactic because its a matter of target-priority, concentrating firepower rather than trying to spread it around, rather than the particular kind of firepower.

Strategy: What you have available in terms of resources.
Tactics: What you can do with those resources.

Multi-assaulting the Gaunts and the Tervigon.
Dumping the attacks on the Gaunts only (or as much as possible) to kill the Tervigon with no retreat wounds.

It seems like the most effective assault method against high toughness multi-wound fearless models.
(I learned that the hard way involving scarabs and a C'tan)

Belphegor:

That's the obvious one, but how do you assault both if the Termagants are screening the Tervigon? You'd need to go over the Termagants, with Jump Packs or Wings.

Plus you'd need to win the combat by an average of 18 in order to dispose of the Tervigon quickly so you can move onto the next one.

to Nurglitch:

You wouldn't necessary need to go over the Gaunts, going through them is an option too.
Of coarse you would need to utilize a vehicle that you can assault from, or have an separate assault unit that can keep up with one.

Getting those 18 wounds would be easier the more Gaunts the Tyranid played has surrounding the Tervigon, and all you need is to get one model into contact.
Which could be from a small jump, bike or outflanking squad, so that one member is in contact with the Tervigon and one with the Gaunts.
The body of the wounds to the Gaunts can come from a different unit once that link is created.

Also it will be difficult to keep a Tervigon completely surrounded by a single squad of Gaunts, since as different units they complete their movements at a separate timing.
If the player attempts to surround it with multiple units then that leaves these other units vulnerable to the multi-charge as well.

Tervigons on the field seem like they would be vulnerable to flanking because to the amount of space their required support take up.
So pac-manning from the sides seems like the general assault approach to take.

Nurglitch wrote:
Plus you'd need to win the combat by an average of 18 in order to dispose of the Tervigon quickly so you can move onto the next one.

In other words, about 40 attacks by WS4/Str4 models allocated on the gants. So 10 charging ork boyz, 15 assault marines, space wolves or chaos marines. Or about 8 charging khorne berzerkers. Not counting nobs/fists or characters. Doesn't sound so hard.

Psyker battle squad reduces it's LD to 2.

Callidus Assassin hits it with Neural Shredder, causing insta-death wound on 2+.



(Seriously, I want to do this to a Carnifex brood one of these days)

Nurglitch wrote:Belphegor:

That's the obvious one, but how do you assault both if the Termagants are screening the Tervigon? You'd need to go over the Termagants, with Jump Packs or Wings.

Plus you'd need to win the combat by an average of 18 in order to dispose of the Tervigon quickly so you can move onto the next one.

Plus the gants are non-trivial, if you're fighting them that close to the Tervigon. Not sure of any single assault unit that would care to engage 20+ poisoned, furious-charging, counter-attacking 'gants, in addition to their Tervigon mother....

I'm going to agree with the Vendetta comment above. Long-range good-AP weapons are essential. If you're space wolves, you can probably get away with using Missile Launchers by using your nasty little runic weapons to prevent Catalyst; for everyone else, bring more lascannons.

Flavius Infernus wrote:

Nurglitch wrote:
Plus you'd need to win the combat by an average of 18 in order to dispose of the Tervigon quickly so you can move onto the next one.

In other words, about 40 attacks by WS4/Str4 models allocated on the gants. So 10 charging ork boyz, 15 assault marines, space wolves or chaos marines. Or about 8 charging khorne berzerkers. Not counting nobs/fists or characters. Doesn't sound so hard.

You forgot the wounds the gants/Tervigon do to you. They're not negligible, and the 'gants go before MEQs/orks.

Janthkin wrote:
Plus the gants are non-trivial, if you're fighting them that close to the Tervigon. Not sure of any single assault unit that would care to engage 20+ poisoned, furious-charging, counter-attacking 'gants, in addition to their Tervigon mother....

Can they be poisoned? I don't have the codex in-hand, but I thought I remembered it saying that the gants produced by a Tervigon are the basic Str3, WS3 version with no upgrades allowed. And aren't they I4 or am I misremembering that too? And doesn't the Tervigon go after at I2 or something? I guess I really should get the codex.

Flavius Infernus wrote:

Janthkin wrote:
Plus the gants are non-trivial, if you're fighting them that close to the Tervigon. Not sure of any single assault unit that would care to engage 20+ poisoned, furious-charging, counter-attacking 'gants, in addition to their Tervigon mother....

Can they be poisoned? I don't have the codex in-hand, but I thought I remembered it saying that the gants produced by a Tervigon are the basic Str3, WS3 version with no upgrades allowed. And aren't they I4 or am I misremembering that too? And doesn't the Tervigon go after at I2 or something? I guess I really should get the codex.

All 'gant units within 6" pick up the upgrades of the Tervigon (Toxin sacs (Poison) + Adrenal glands (Furious Charge)), plus get Counter-attack. Add in the SW FAQ with it's "counter-attacking units can use Furious Charge" ruling, and it get a little ugly to multicharge in there.

Yes, the Tervigon itself is very low init, which is why they should take Crushing Claws all the time.

The SW FAQ rule applying to every army in the game is a little questionable, but I wouldn't object to it being played that way. It does make Termagants a lot harder to assault though. Maybe too much so, considering they cost 5 points each and the Tervigon only 'costs' 100 points once its spawned 20 Termagants.

By the way are you all assuming the Tervigon gets a cover save from the Termagants? It really needs one from somewhere or it will simply get shot to bits by turn 2, but I don't think Gaunts are big enough at all.

Um.. Hive Guard. A mirror match there, but its not impossible to consider.

Therion wrote:The SW FAQ rule applying to every army in the game is a little questionable, but I wouldn't object to it being played that way. It does make Termagants a lot harder to assault though. Maybe too much so, considering they cost 5 points each and the Tervigon only 'costs' 100 points once its spawned 20 Termagants.

On the "bright" side, at least counter-attacking 'gants won't gain the benefits of Defensive Grenades from the Venomthrope standing just over yonder.

And to think we thought that ruling was silly! Instead, they were just looking forward for once....

Belphegor wrote:Multi-assaulting the Gaunts and the Tervigon.
Dumping the attacks on the Gaunts only (or as much as possible) to kill the Tervigon with no retreat wounds.

It seems like the most effective assault method against high toughness multi-wound fearless models.
(I learned that the hard way involving scarabs and a C'tan)

Horrible idea against the new bugs. Those little Gaunts will be ST4, I5, poisoned 4+ with their daddy lurking around with them. Against even a small brood (say 10), the Gaunts will average 7.5 wounds before saves against anything T4 or below. And this does not include other buffs like having a Venomthrope or an Old Adversary Tyrant nearby. When combined with the Crushing Claw on the Tervigon, the Tyranid player averages 1.2 wounds from the Gaunts and 0.68 wounds from the Tervigon against TEQs. Anything less than a major close combat unit (7+ Assault Terminators, diversified Nobz/Thunderwolves, etc.) will have a tough time sticking around. MEQs will take 2.475 wounds from the Gaunts and 2.075 from the Tervigon. Even Berzerkers start thinking twice and remember, those numbers are from a very small Gaunt squad at 10 models.

Wait what.. does Counter Attack allow you to gain the benefit of the Furious Charge rule?

Razerous wrote:Wait what.. does Counter Attack allow you to gain the benefit of the Furious Charge rule?

Since GW ruled "Yes" in the Space Wolves FAQ, we've been playing it that way with the Termagaunts as well just to be safe.

Razerous wrote:Wait what.. does Counter Attack allow you to gain the benefit of the Furious Charge rule?

Since it describes an interaction of USRs, not SW-specific rules, it can be argued that FC now effects all counter-attacking units.

That's great, how about we leave that argument in YMDC and get on with discussing tactical solutions to the Tervigon?

Vendettas are EZ-Mode. 3 should have shooting left over, and their elevated model means they can ignore almost all screening units for cover purposes.

Edit: Actually Vendettas will come up just short. Still, the rest of the list can undoubtedly put a single wound on the sucker. It's still one of the best shooting efficiencies available, considering all options.

I think Tervigons are absolute poop. Oh cool, I can make more gaunts. I dont own the codex, but full out gaunt farm seems like asking to lose against any mech player.

One or two tervigons are a good choice though. As far as killing them I would either charge with multiple fists, or pew pew with high strength high ap guns.

Just dont get bent out of shape about them. Someone pumping all their fire into tervigons and ignoring the tyrannofexs/tyrants is asking to lose.

sourclams:

Actually you have a good point. Getting Heavy Weapons into an elevated position 3"-6" high is going to make it hard for a Tervigon to get cover saves. Employing Lascannons and other AP2 weapons will negate any Feel No Pain.

Speaking specifically to Vendettas, my experience with them is that they themselves tend not to get cover for return-fire, but it doesn't look like Tyranids have much in the way of firepower to knock down a squadron in less than two turns.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I grappled the shoggoth:

So if you were going to charge the Tervigons with Powerfists, how would you get past the Termagant screen? If you were going to shoot them with high Strength guns, what would you do about the Tyrannofices and Tyrants and whatever else?

I mean the whole point of this thread is about killing Tervigons - whether people want to or not is beside the point because we've already started with the assumption that we want to.

Straken and Guard blobs with fists might work.

Space marines could use a 2 tac squads with flamers and a razorback with plas/las. marines burn and shoot down the gaunt squad to open up the fire lanes for the razors to shoot the tervigon. Wolves could squeeze in a combi flamer and another fist into each unit incase they need to pick off the last wound off the terivgon.

Durandal:

How might Straken and blobbed platoons work?

The idea with the Space Marines sounds interesting, but don't Tervigons have something like W6 and the option of taking regenerate? That might work over three or four turns, whereas we're working on single-turn kills.

It would work by charging the termagants with equal amounts of guardsmen. Both would furious charge into each other. The guard would probably have the advantage with flamers as long as you didn't make yourself unable to assault.

Nurglitch wrote:sourclams:

Actually you have a good point. Getting Heavy Weapons into an elevated position 3"-6" high is going to make it hard for a Tervigon to get cover saves. Employing Lascannons and other AP2 weapons will negate any Feel No Pain.

Speaking specifically to Vendettas, my experience with them is that they themselves tend not to get cover for return-fire, but it doesn't look like Tyranids have much in the way of firepower to knock down a squadron in less than two turns.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I grappled the shoggoth:

So if you were going to charge the Tervigons with Powerfists, how would you get past the Termagant screen? If you were going to shoot them with high Strength guns, what would you do about the Tyrannofices and Tyrants and whatever else?

I mean the whole point of this thread is about killing Tervigons - whether people want to or not is beside the point because we've already started with the assumption that we want to.

Me, personally, I wouldn't care that much about losing the Tervigons, especially since they're just Troop choices for me, pouring out other Troop choices. That, and with the same idea as your termagant screen, I'm also going to have 3 Venomthropes lovingly floating behind them, automatically giving them cover saves, whether they have a screen or not. That and 2-3 Tervigons giving 2-3 units of Termagants FNP helps too. (Course, I could put the Venomthropes between the Gaunts and Tervigons, giving everyone some cover love, but that might get a little tight from something like a Vindicator.)

Edit: Also, I equip my Tervigons with Regeneration. So, just as a for instance - you fire your 3 Vendettas at my Tervigon. That's 3 Twin-linked Lascannons from each bird. First three, you need 4's, so 9 lascannon shots at 50% = 4.5, 4.5 at 50% again = 2.25, 4.5 + 2.25 = 7 total.

Now, 2+ to wound. 2+ is 83%, so 83% of 7 is a little under 6. Let's say that 6 wound.

Now, I get a cover save. At 5+, my cover save is only 33%. 33% of 6 is 2. Therefore, I take 4 wounds.

My turn rolls around, I need to get back some wounds. Rolling a 6 alone is only a 16% chance, so 16% of 4 is 1. I am back up to 3 wounds. And now I'm a turn closer and I still have 2 unwounded Tervigons left.

Not saying they're the best unit in the game or anything, but they're not necessarily "EZ-mode" either.

So what you want is a unit that can kill off a tervigon in one turn, and do it without having to wade through 35325504672098672050571038571309571035 gaunts.

I recommend lascannons. Anything that has enough shots will take it down. Stern guard could do a number on one when hopping out of a pod

If you move 6' and disembark, the TW plasma will put 2 wounds, and an extra from the lascannons. For a total of 3. So it wouldn't be wiped out in one round of shooting, but I assume the nid player must now choose to either assault a unit with enough fists to do 3 wounds, or spew more gaunts that will only be shot to death next turn.

Unless it can spawn and still assault?