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Is it legal to charge into combat, and simply not attack? It could be used to protect yourself from a turn of shooting, as detailed in the title. I had a friend pull this on another friend, and was just wondering if it is permissable. Thanks in advance!

huh good question never occured to me to try that. you can assault a unit you have no hopes of killing to keep from being shoot at. but to not make any attacks when you have a chance to kill i dont think you can do that.

I don't see why you wouldn't attack if you charged, because you're opponent would always be able to atack you back. I understand why you would charge to stop being shot at, but I just don't get why you wouldn't want to fight.

I have no idea whether this is actually possible under a raw interpration, but I do know that you would have to be a very sad individual to try it

It was being used with a daemon prince, charging a squad of guardsmen, witholding from attacking in his phase, then killing them in the guard turn and ripping apart a tank in the chaos turn, all without being shot. Cheap, no?

To put a stop to this, I need a page reference that contradicts what he is doing.

well, under "Who can fight?" it says engaged models "must" fight. It goes on to say that they "will" attack [not "may"?] with their "full number of attacks."
not sure if that's a definitive answer, but I don't see a lot of room for options?

oh, it's on page 35 of the book that came with AoBR in the Assault Phase section...

P35, units locked in combat 'must fight', engaged models 'will fight in this turns assault phase with their full number of attacks'.

Took me all of 10 seconds to find. And I still got ninja'd.

37 again repeats 'must attack' for models at their initiative, and says 'each engaged model strikes'.

There's probably more, but the simple 'must fight' with 'full number of attacks' on 35 seems more than sufficient.

hehe, sorry gorkamorka, but at least there's a consensus?

Thankyou very much!

On the other hand if you have multiple weapons you could choose to attack with the worst one, and not kill as many as you would have.

Would still not work with DP as all of their attacks ignore armour saves.

Ludovic wrote:On the other hand if you have multiple weapons you could choose to attack with the worst one, and not kill as many as you would have.

Would still not work with DP as all of their attacks ignore armour saves.

If I recall correctly, you're allowed to attack without the bonuses from special weapons (like power swords, power fists, etc...), and just use normal CC attacks. However, you must explicitly state you are doing so, and things like MCs will always ignore armour saves, because they always do, regardless of what weapons you use.
I may have this wrong, or perhaps my head is stuck in 4th edition. Correct me if wrong.

4th edition, I believe.

That is indeed 4th ed - in 5th edition you MUST attack, and WILL use any special CCW you have.

There are definitely situations in which you can choose to attack with a worse weapon, I don't have the book on me so I'm not sure what they are. If you have two specials you could choose the lamer one, I know that.

ETA: but if ALL you have is a power fist you must attack with that!

Yes, IF you have a choice you may choose to attack with the worse special weapon, however if you have only ONE special CCW you must use it.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Yes, IF you have a choice you may choose to attack with the worse special weapon, however if you have only ONE special CCW you must use it.

My mistake.

Ludovic wrote:There are definitely situations in which you can choose to attack with a worse weapon.

One situation that comes to mind is having a walker involved, preferaby one without a DCCW. Your Mega-Armoured Nobz have Powerklawz and frag grenades that can be used against vehicles. How convenient if you don't want to rip the walker to shreds immediately.

sounds to me like this guy dosent know how to play his army. charging in his DP then "staying in combat" cause hes afraid to get the return fire after he wipes them makes it sound like he dosent plan ahead well, or for that matter have support for his DP. counter it by not attacking either, then "volentarilly failing" your morale check. run away with the goobers, he chases and kills, but dosent get to stay in combat then blast the bejesus outa him anyway. if he crys foul, just point out that his little shtick is foul the first....then actually get him to read the rules.

nosferatu1001 wrote:That is indeed 4th ed - in 5th edition you MUST attack, and WILL use any special CCW you have.

er ... no you must make any special close combat attacks (these are most commonly servo arms) but you get the choice of what weapon you use (well this is a lie you're never told you can use the weapon rules but it would be silly not to). This is a common miss reading i can only guess its made because people really don't want models with power fists using a pistol to go first (note you're even give the option of using a rifle's butt at the start of Fighting With Two Single-Handed Weapons ... in which case all you'd need is a a gun to hit them with ... rather then a power fist).

Except of course, that page 42, along with the main rulebook errata, pretty much spells out that you will use a special weapon if you have it. No misreading required.

Two of the same special weapon
These models gain one additional attack. All of their attacks, including the bonus attack, use the special weapon’s bonuses and penalties.

A normal and a special weapon
These models gain one additional attack. All of their attacks, including the bonus attack, use
the special weapon’s bonuses and penalties. (Second sentence from the errata)

don_mondo wrote:Except of course, that page 42, along with the main rulebook errata, pretty much spells out that you will use a special weapon if you have it. No misreading required.

Two of the same special weapon
These models gain one additional attack. All of their attacks, including the bonus attack, use the special weapon’s bonuses and penalties.

A normal and a special weapon
These models gain one additional attack. All of their attacks, including the bonus attack, use
the special weapon’s bonuses and penalties. (Second sentence from the errata)

No it doesn't you are told to do the following
- Make all your attacks (who can fight)
- Make all your special attacks that they have (who can fight)
At no point during page 42 are you told you Must use any thing. You are told ...
- what effects you get from using a normal or special weapon ...
- what effects you get from using two weapons ...

But even IF you had to use both weapons you can simply, by having a bolter (or other weapon), use the option hitting with the Butt of the gun which lets you get round the whole of the FWTSHW rule.

Yes, you must use the special weapon if you have it, unless you have another special weapon.
For example, take Karandras: armed with a powerfist AND a chainsword that bumps up strength. You can choose which one to use.

Agree with don_mondo. I think there have been several threads asking if you can switch off a power fist etc. As soon as you start having 3 or 4 weapons the rules get muddy, but otherwise you have to use them and you have to fight.

If you think of yourself as the army commander watching from the back. You can stand there and shout "stop exploding, you cowards!", but you can make your men fail armour saves or gun each other down, even when it would be beneficial to the army. They are trying to stay alive.

Tri - except that ignores the errata, which specifically states you WILL use the special weapons bonuses and penalties.

You *cannot* use a normal CCW if you have a special CCW.

Keep in mind that a Daemon Prince with Warptime can almost do this, as he can choose to re-roll all successful hits and wounds.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Tri - except that ignores the errata, which specifically states you WILL use the special weapons bonuses and penalties.

You *cannot* use a normal CCW if you have a special CCW.

Page 42 – ‘A normal and a special weapon’, first
paragraph.
The second sentence should be changed to:
All of their attacks, including the bonus attack, use
the special weapon’s bonuses and penalties.

what has that got to do with it? Its part of the rules for "Fighting With Two Single-Handed Weapons" If there is no choice for how the model is going to be fighting then the rules break. Many if not most model have the "Rifle Butt" option as well as two single-handed weapons ... Page 42 is at best a guide to tell you what will happen if you choose to use X.

"All of their attacks use". Not may, not can, but "use". In the absence of can or may, that makes it "must use", "will use", as in you gotta use them.

don_mondo wrote:"All of their attacks use". Not may, not can, but "use". In the absence of can or may, that makes it "must use", "will use", as in you gotta use them.

only if they choose to use a special and a normal weapon (of the single handed variety) ... please see page 42 for other ways to use weapons

No, it's if they are equipped with (as per the first paragraph of that section), not if they choose to use.
"Some models are equipped with two single-handed weapons they can use in close combat, with the rules given below for the different possible combinations"

don_mondo wrote:No, it's if they are equipped with (as per the first paragraph of that section), not if they choose to use.
"Some models are equipped with two single-handed weapons they can use in close combat, with the rules given below for the different possible combinations"

"...they can use..." is not must use. In the case of a chaos space-marine he can hit you with his power fist (and also using his pistol to no added effect), He can also for go using two close combat weapons and ether use the pistol on its own or use the Butt of his Bolter (rifle butts being two handed means he couldn't combine it with any thing any way)