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No, Tri, seriously, that's how it worked in 4th, that's not how it works in 5th.

As Mondo already quoted, the part which says "can use" is the part describing which models the rule applies to. And then in the part explaining how it actually works, it tells you that all of their attacks use the special weapon.

Per the errata:

GW main rulebook errata wrote:Page 42 – ‘A normal and a special weapon’, first
paragraph.
The second sentence should be changed to:
All of their attacks, including the bonus attack, use
the special weapon’s bonuses and penalties.

http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m2030054_FAQ_40Krulebook_Feb2010.pdf

Mannahnin wrote:No, Tri, seriously, that's how it worked in 4th, that's not how it works in 5th.

As Mondo already quoted, the part which says "can use" is the part describing which models the rule applies to. And then in the part explaining how it actually works, it tells you that all of their attacks use the special weapon.

Per the errata:

GW main rulebook errata wrote:Page 42 – ‘A normal and a special weapon’, first
paragraph.
The second sentence should be changed to:
All of their attacks, including the bonus attack, use
the special weapon’s bonuses and penalties.

http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m2030054_FAQ_40Krulebook_Feb2010.pdf

Which still does not change the fact there is nothing in the rule that requires you to fight with all your weapons ... If you choose to use two weapons you will have to check the rule for that combination.

I can also simply choose to attack with "rifle butt" ... being two handed it cannot be combined another weapon and as a normal weapon will strike with out causing any bonus or penalties.

Don Mondo is correct, you are required to use them in the majority of cases.

Tri wrote:
Which still does not change the fact there is nothing in the rule that requires you to fight with all your weapons ... If you choose to use two weapons you will have to check the rule for that combination.

I can also simply choose to attack with "rifle butt" ... being two handed it cannot be combined another weapon and as a normal weapon will strike with out causing any bonus or penalties.

Wrong, if you have a special weapon, you must use it and have no choice to deactivte it. You may not choose between weapons unless it is two special weapons.

You are full of edition creep.

A Bolter is not a CC weapon. It is assumed the model has basic attacks being made with whatever he is capable of producing. The marine is not equipped with a single handed CCW (pistol), 2-handed CCW (bolter) and a Powerfist. The Bolter is not a CC weapon ad is just what we imagine him using when he uses his base attacks. The second he has a special weapon, he is forced to use it and has no ability to choose this non-existent rifle butt.

Page 35 states "and use any SPECIAL close combat attack they have"

So again, you WILL use that special CCW

Tri wrote:
Which still does not change the fact there is nothing in the rule that requires you to fight with all your weapons ... If you choose to use two weapons you will have to check the rule for that combination.

I can also simply choose to attack with "rifle butt" ... being two handed it cannot be combined another weapon and as a normal weapon will strike with out causing any bonus or penalties.

True, no rule saying you have to fight with 'all' your weapons. Just a rule saying that if you have a special weapon, you must use it. Well, and another rule saying that you must make all your attacks, so that does say that if you have two single handed weapons (and only two), then you must use them all. No choosing to just attack with the pistol, for instance.

If you have a SM armed with a bolter and a holstered bolt pistol and combat blade (knife) then does that mean when it comes to combat you count the model as attacking with bolt pistol and blade??

If you want clarification, have your friend take that army and tactic to an OT. Dont argue with him, just tell him its an awesome tactic and he needs to win some swag with it. then when he gets docked for sportsmanship for trying something so cheap that isnt even legal in the first place, and then laughed outta the tourney for not bein able to read, maybe he'll learn a valuable lesson about rule loopholes and jackassery. or perhaps better yet his ego will be so crushed that he will only be able to recover by quitting the game, at which time he may give you his figs or sell em cheap. this plan works best if you refrain from mentioning the warptime abuse seeing as this could make his jackassery legal.

don_mondo wrote:

Tri wrote:
Which still does not change the fact there is nothing in the rule that requires you to fight with all your weapons ... If you choose to use two weapons you will have to check the rule for that combination.

I can also simply choose to attack with "rifle butt" ... being two handed it cannot be combined another weapon and as a normal weapon will strike with out causing any bonus or penalties.

True, no rule saying you have to fight with 'all' your weapons. Just a rule saying that if you have a special weapon, you must use it. Well, and another rule saying that you must make all your attacks, so that does say that if you have two single handed weapons (and only two), then you must use them all. No choosing to just attack with the pistol, for instance.

what? page 35? ... "and use any specail close combat" weapon i see ... no wait it doesn't say that it say "and use any specail close combat attacks" which is not the same at all. Servitor make a specail close combat attack at S:8 I:1

No, Tri, page 42, as already explained to you quite thoroughly in the thread. if you're equipped with it, you must use it.

Corennus, yes, if the model is equipped with a bolter, pistol, and ccw (reference Chaos Marines), then they get +1 attack for two weapons. In this case, you might, just might, be able to get away with Tri's rifle butt argument as you have no special ccw, but then that would go against the full number of attacks and no holding back stated elsewhere.

apparently can't do it cause in wargear section of SM troops they only have bolt pistol as CC weapon.

Oh well.

I still want to see the rule that turns every ranged piece of wargear or shooting weapon into a '2-handed CCW'

If you look at an Ork shoota boy, he has a SHOOTA and no CCWs. Because he has no CCWs it is assumed he fights with his base attacks via however he can, Rifle butt, punching, kicking, a shank from his boot.

If you look at a Mega Armor Nob, he has a Powerklaw and a Shoota. The Shoota *IS NOT* a CCW. So he is not equipped with a 2-handed CCW and a 1-handed PK. The *ONLY* CCW he has is a 1-handed Pk which means he attacks with it no matter what (except in the case of vehicles where he can choose to use grenades)

In the Marine situation, He has a Bolter, bolt Pistol and PF. He does not have a 2-handed CCW that he can choose, all he has is a Pistol and a 1-handed Powerfist. Which means the only available option for him is under 'special weapons' 1 regular, 1 special. Which means he must use the special and he doesn't get a bonus attack.

The idea of turning all ranged weapons into 2-handed CCWs is trying to say having the 3 weapons gives one a choice. I see no evidence that a Lascannon, a Shoota, a Lasgun, a Gauss blaster or any of those weapons are officially a 2-handed CCW. All of them are simply what we imagine them using in a 'fluff' sense when they attack with thier base attack profile.

That's because it doesn't exist in the sense that Tri is trying to use it. The rule he's misinterpreting is on page 42, basically the rule that states that you always get the attacks listed in your profile even if you are not specifically armed with a "close combat weapon".

NORMAL CLOSE COMBAT WEAPONS
Weapons like chainswords, rifle butts, combat blades,
bayonets, etc., do not confer any particular bonus to
the model using them. Remember that, in close
combat, pistols count as normal close combat weapons
and so the Strength and AP of the pistol are ignored.

Tri is mistakenly trying to use this to supercede more specific rules later on the same page.

Obviously, the "misinterpreting" and "mistakenly" are IMO................

In my last game I had a Painboy (along with Nobz) charge a unit of Firewarriors. I chose to hit with his profile S4 +1 for furious charge for a 2+ to wound rather than his 'Urty Syringe for a 4+ to wound. Right or wrong?

Arakasi wrote:In my last game I had a Painboy (along with Nobz) charge a unit of Firewarriors. I chose to hit with his profile S4 +1 for furious charge for a 2+ to wound rather than his 'Urty Syringe for a 4+ to wound. Right or wrong?

Wrong. Provided he did not also have a different Special CCW, You should have rolled 4+ with a Re-roll for Poisoned. Yes, it's worse than rolling 2+ to hit, but them's the breaks for being able to wound T10 on a 4+

Gwar! wrote:

Arakasi wrote:In my last game I had a Painboy (along with Nobz) charge a unit of Firewarriors. I chose to hit with his profile S4 +1 for furious charge for a 2+ to wound rather than his 'Urty Syringe for a 4+ to wound. Right or wrong?

Wrong. Provided he did not also have a different Special CCW, You should have rolled 4+ with a Re-roll for Poisoned. Yes, it's worse than rolling 2+ to hit, but them's the breaks for being able to wound T10 on a 4+

Good to know, plus, I didn't realise I got a re-roll - first time using a Painboy in over 10 years... Wasn't a deciding factor - the Nobz pretty much decimated the unit by themselves. I also suffer from occasional confusion having come from 3rd edition (after a long break)... hopefully getting better!

If I read this correctly:

I'm ok with choosing which special weapon to use if say I give my SM chaplain a PF along with his crozius. Seems to be one of the few instances this could become an issue.

Yes, if you have a choice of special weapons you can choose - if you only have 1 special and 1 normal you MUST use the special, no matter what Tri says on this.

okay on topic serious question, IF you purposely fail combat with the daemon using warp time to re-roll successes so you can use the opponets squad to avoid getting shot, then butcher them on their turn. IS THIS:

1: Brilliant

2: Poor Sportsmanship

3: Abuse of the rules

4: Legal

tell me all that apply because im fuzzy here. I believe in scraping together advantages but I try to limit myself to sideways thinking and not rape of rule wording

It is legal, but poor sportsmanship as it goes against the spirit of that rule - the fluff is that the Daemon Prince has supernatural precision, not that he flails madly.

No, it's not more poor sportmanship than avoiding firing in the shooting phase because you don't want to risk failing the assault.

You use a power to gain a benefit, it's totally within the spirit of the rules.

nosferatu1001 wrote:It is legal, but poor sportsmanship as it goes against the spirit of that rule - the fluff is that the Daemon Prince has supernatural precision, not that he flails madly.

It's easily fluff-justifiable. The Daemon Prince is toying with the pathetic humans, using his supernatural precision to knock them stumbling into each other and casually smashing their weapons before killing them.

BeRzErKeR wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:It is legal, but poor sportsmanship as it goes against the spirit of that rule - the fluff is that the Daemon Prince has supernatural precision, not that he flails madly.

It's easily fluff-justifiable. The Daemon Prince is toying with the pathetic humans, using his supernatural precision to knock them stumbling into each other and casually smashing their weapons before killing them.

Well, yes... but then again the changes to CC from 4th to 5th were about getting rid of the "hide in CC" tactics. You're forced to use special weapons if you have them and full number of attacks. Sure seems a bit shady to reroll in order to do fewer hits/wounds. Not against the rules but certainly not meant to make me play nice either.

There's nothing wrong with using Warptime in this way, it's a completely legitimate tactic. If anything you should be happy that he's using Warptime and not Lash, now there's a game breaking power.