What exactly is wrong with Arizona Immigration Law SB1070?

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**mattyrm**

This whole thing is causing a big fuss at the moment stateside.

Now, ill concede it is kinda.. you know.. harsh.

Im a pretty centre/left leaning conservative guy as your all aware, im not a religious man, im gay friendly, and i think that generally you should be allowed to do whatever you want as long as it doesnt hurt a third party, i think civilians owning assualt rifles is absurd...but i digress.

Whats THAT wrong with it? Surely the people shouting the most loudly are the illegals right? People like me would just be.. a little uncomfortable with it but see it as a necessary evil wouldnt they?

The reason i have a loathing for all the "red" left leaning dakkites (and an equal one for all the right wing nutters i must add!) is because i find hippies to be generally staggeringly hypocritical. I mean, i dislike animal testing, but id never be one of these smelly eco warriors fire bombing a scientists house because i know that if my 6 year old nephew got sick and i could heal him with drugs that were animal tested, then i would.

I dislike fox hunting, but all the farmers seem to be for it, so who am i to tell them otherwise when i live in a city?

Anyway...

My girlfriend told me this big yarn about how she got rear ended by a mexican guy, he used her cell phone to call his American girlfriend, who then showed up and said "he doesnt have insurance, so say i was driving or you get nothing" and she refused and told the cops the actual story as the mexican dudes missus was in the process of lying through her teeth, and this caused this big scene at which point the illegal semi literate guy got aggressive with her.

The (badly worded i concede, i was on the piss for three days forgive my aching brain) point im getting at, is, isnt it easy for people like us to make a statement when it doesnt affect us?

I know for a fact that there is no shortage of hand wringing liberals on here who are just going to start shouting about how it is a "nazi" law and such, but isnt mine a valid point? Its easy for me to condemn it, im sitting pretty in Yorkshire. But if i was there, in Arizona, and illegal immgration was causing huge issues with regards to many areas of my life, the local infrastructure and social cohesion, then, i think id would apprehensively support it. Isnt it a necessary ill?

Anyone who lives there on dakka and wants to give their feelings on the matter? I find the current debate very interesting, as i think i find it rather distateful, but would support it anyway if i was living there. Thoughts?

**Frazzled**

Its mean towards illegals, just like the federal law. Its desperation, because the Federal governemnt refuses to do the only job it was primarily assigned to do-protect the borders from foreign invasion. Phoeinix is now the kidnapping capital of North America.
Now we will have twenty posts by people who don't live in a border state, or even this country, to tell us how evil we are.

**SilverMK2**

Any chance of a summation of what the law says for those of us who are behind work filters and thus can't go and find it?

Frazzled wrote:Now we will have twenty posts by people who don't live in a border state, or even this country, to tell us how evil we are.

Americans are always evil, no matter where you live. They invented daytime TV, the most evil thing in the world

**mattyrm**

Im too lazy to look for a link...

Basically the police can pull people over for no reason and ask to see their papers.

**Soladrin**

I have no clue what this is about...

**Frazzled**

SilverMK2 wrote:Any chance of a summation of what the law says for those of us who are behind work filters and thus can't go and find it?

Frazzled wrote:Now we will have twenty posts by people who don't live in a border state, or even this country, to tell us how evil we are.

Americans are always evil, no matter where you live. They invented daytime TV, the most evil thing in the world

True that. However, we also invented Chicago style pizza so there ya go.

If the cops have reasonable suspension, they can question you about whether or not you are committing a crime by being here illegally. reasonable suspension is a standing level of proof-the same level required for them to stop and question you about anything.

Except for Shuma. With reasonable suspension they'd just have to taze Shuma, because he 'aint gonig down without a fight, much like Malfred aint going down without stealing at least one pair of socks.

**mattyrm**

Soladrin, see above.

**Kanluwen**

SilverMK2 wrote:Any chance of a summation of what the law says for those of us who are behind work filters and thus can't go and find it?

The law makes it a state misdemeanor crime for anyone to be unable to prove lawful residence in the United States upon being asked to provide such proof pursuant to § 1373(c) of Title 8 of the United States Code,[8] and requires police to make a reasonable attempt, when practical, to determine immigration status if there is cause to suspect they are illegal immigrants.[9] Only when making lawful contact, anyone who appears to be an illegal alien upon reasonable suspicion and fails to produce such proof is subject to arrest without warrant,[8] and, upon confirmation of the individual's illegal status by the federal government, a fine of at least $500, and up to six months in jail.[10] A person is "presumed to not be an alien who is unlawfully present in the United States" if he or she presents any of the following four forms of identification: (a) a valid Arizona driver license; (b) a valid Arizona nonoperating identification license; (c) a valid tribal enrollment card or other tribal identification; or (d) any valid federal, state, or local government-issued identification, if the issuer requires proof of legal presence in the United States as a condition of issuance.[8] SB1070 also prohibits state, county, or local officials from limiting or restricting "the enforcement of federal immigration laws to less than the full extent permitted by federal law" and provides that Arizona citizens can sue such agencies or officials to compel such full enforcement.[8][11]

In addition, the law makes it a crime for anyone, regardless of citizenship or immigration-status, to hire or to be hired from a vehicle which "blocks or impedes the normal movement of traffic." Vehicles used in such manner are subject to mandatory impounding. Moreover, "encourag[ing] or induc[ing]" illegal immigration, giving shelter to illegal immigrants, and transporting or attempting to transport an illegal alien, either knowingly or while "recklessly" disregarding the individual's immigration-status,[12] will be considered a class 1 criminal misdemeanor if less than 10 illegal immigrants are involved, and a class 6 felony if 10 or more are involved. The offender will be subject to a fine of at least $1,000 for each illegal alien so transported or sheltered.[12]

Arizona is the first state with such a law.[13] Prior law in Arizona, and the law in most other states, does not mandate that law enforcement personnel ask about the immigration status of those they encounter, and many police departments discourage such inquiries for fear that immigrants will not report crimes or cooperate in other investigations.[7]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arizona_SB1070

**hcordes**

So basically its like "random selection" at the Airport after 9-11... when everyone that was randomly selected is/was or looked middle eastern. So now this is anyone who looks mexican get pulled over and needs to show a green card.

im fine with it.

how else are they gonna check? they should have random check points, like they do for DUI's.

**SilverMK2**

That's strange. It seems to suggest that if you are from overseas and have an American visa in your passport (say) you can still be arrested, fined and jailed if you don't have ID issued in the state saying that you live/belong in Arizona, or ID issued by the American Government

**Kanluwen**

Yes/no.

The worries I've heard about the law is that it sets a bad precedent(given that y'know...it's racial profiling. Which is a "bad thing") and pretty much violates Constitutional rights to privacy.

**Frazzled**

hcordes wrote:So basically its like "random selection" at the Airport after 9-11... when everyone that was randomly selected is/was or looked middle eastern. So now this is anyone who looks mexican get pulled over and needs to show a green card.

im fine with it.

how else are they gonna check? they should have random check points, like they do for DUI's.

Its basically like that except its completely not. They have to have a minimum level of suspicion to stop you. Airport random checks were random. I saw them counting to 20.

**Kanluwen**

That was @ Hcordes. Not you Silver

**malfred**

We need to institute this in the northern border states.

Freakin' Canadians. Just make sure to confiscate the Syrup.

Yum.

**Kanluwen**

Frazzled wrote:
hcordes wrote:So basically its like "random selection" at the Airport after 9-11... when everyone that was randomly selected is/was or looked middle eastern. So now this is anyone who looks mexican get pulled over and needs to show a green card.

im fine with it.

how else are they gonna check? they should have random check points, like they do for DUI's.

Its basically like that except its completely not. They have to have a minimum level of suspicion to stop you. Airport random checks were random. I saw them counting to 20.

Oh please. The "minimum level of suspicion" here is "Hey, he looks Latino. GET 'IM!"

**Frazzled**

SilverMK2 wrote:That's strange. It seems to suggest that if you are from overseas and have an American visa in your passport (say) you can still be arrested, fined and jailed if you don't have ID issued in the state saying that you live/belong in Arizona, or ID issued by the American Government

A visa would be a valid document. Its issued by the American Government.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Kanluwen wrote:
Frazzled wrote:
hcordes wrote:So basically its like "random selection" at the Airport after 9-11... when everyone that was randomly selected is/was or looked middle eastern. So now this is anyone who looks mexican get pulled over and needs to show a green card.

im fine with it.

how else are they gonna check? they should have random check points, like they do for DUI's.

Its basically like that except its completely not. They have to have a minimum level of suspicion to stop you. Airport random checks were random. I saw them counting to 20.

Oh please. The "minimum level of suspicion" here is "Hey, he looks Latino. GET 'IM!"

Yep. Same level of suspiciion they can stop anyone for.
Actually now that I think about it, that would work. Unlike North Carolina you're pushing majority hispanic in Arizona. it wold require more that, ala speaking Spanish, waiting at a known day labor position, working at McDonalds, that sort of thing.

**malfred**

Suddenly I'm not so aced about visiting Arizona.

Who am I kidding? I don't really travel at all.

**SilverMK2**

Frazzled wrote:A visa would be a valid document. Its issued by the American Government.

"any valid federal, state, or local government-issued identification"

A visa is not a form of identification as far as I am aware. The identification would be your passport (in my case issued by the British Government, not the United States of America) in which the visa stamp resides.

**mattyrm**

So Kanlu you are against it then?

My point is, i can see its a bit harsh, but what else can you do?

If a 5 foot 9 hairy guy with a Middlesbrough accent blew up a bus or something, then id expect to get pulled over. I would deal with it, if i havent done anything, then ive nothing to fear.

If you are legally in Arizona, then its no big deal showing them. If i was there on holiday and a copper asked to see some ID i know id say "sure mate!" give him my passport and say "Aye im on holiday" and it wouldnt be a problem.

I think its a tad harsh too, but what else is the solution? As i said, it seems a pretty sensible thing to do if you ask me.

**Gitzbitah**

Why is anyone concerned about protecting the rights of illegal immigrants? The first thing that they did when they entered this country was break the law. They don't pay taxes, so they are a drain on our resources. Is there any reason we shouldn't try to repatriate them to their homelands?

There is one part of this bill that I have a problem with- the jailing of the illegal immigrants. Why would we keep them in America for being here illegally? Its like giving someone a cookie to punish them for raiding the cookie jar.

**Kanluwen**

Frazzled wrote:
Yep. Same level of suspicion they can stop anyone for.

And the same level that then gets the officers and department slapped with a racial profiling suit so fast they think they're fighting at Gettysburg, apparently.

**Frazzled**

SilverMK2 wrote:
Frazzled wrote:A visa would be a valid document. Its issued by the American Government.

"any valid federal, state, or local government-issued identification"

A visa is not a form of identification as far as I am aware. The identification would be your passport (in my case issued by the British Government, not the United States of America) in which the visa stamp resides.

You'd still have a passport no?

**Kanluwen**

mattyrm wrote:So Kanlu you are against it then?

My point is, i can see its a bit harsh, but what else can you do?

If a 5 foot 9 hairy guy with a Middlesbrough accent blew up a bus or something, then id expect to get pulled over. I would deal with it, if i havent done anything, then ive nothing to fear.

If you are legally in Arizona, then its no big deal showing them. If i was there on holiday and a copper asked to see some ID i know id say "sure mate!" give him my passport and say "Aye im on holiday" and it wouldnt be a problem.

I think its a tad harsh too, but what else is the solution? As i said, it seems a pretty sensible thing to do if you ask me.

I'm against using such a shaky premise.

Either beef up the Border Patrol's capabilities for interdiction or make some form of an incentive for illegal immigrants to use the actual "proper" ways into the country.

**Frazzled**

And my point stands. The guy not on the border state is objecting.

**Kanluwen**

Oh, I'm sorry. I guess I'm not on the frontline of the war against Mexico.

Must've missed that memo, what with having large amounts of illegal immigrants in NC coming from Central America.

**pombe**

I'm quite the liberal, and I do not endorse racial profiling of any sort...but I do agree that we have to start taking some sort of measure against illegal immigrants.

1) Economically speaking, they cost Americans billions of dollars every year from emergency room visits and unpaid taxes.

2) From a social justice point of view, there are thousands of people who are patiently waiting through legal channels to enter this country, and allowing illegal immigrants to enter this country (or even more extreme, granting those already here amnesty) is grossly unfair.

**SilverMK2**

Frazzled wrote:You'd still have a passport no?

Yes, but as I said, it is not "any valid federal, state, or local government-issued identification", it is identification issued by the redcoats. In which there is a visa stamp, which in itself is not ID, nor does it grant me any guaranteed rights to enter or remain the US.

**Redbeard**

I don't understand how it changes anything. As a legal immigrant, I am legally required to carry my green-card on me at all times.

This doesn't appear to change that.

**Kanluwen**

pombe wrote:I'm quite the liberal, and I do not endorse racial profiling of any sort...but I do agree that we have to start taking some sort of measure against illegal immigrants.

1) Economically speaking, they cost Americans billions of dollars every year from emergency room visits and unpaid taxes.

2) From a social justice point of view, there are thousands of people who are patiently waiting through legal channels to enter this country, and allowing illegal immigrants to enter this country (or even more extreme, granting those already here amnesty) is grossly unfair.

So rather than wasting tax dollars arresting them--go after the people hiring them as a cheap labor force.

When dealing with drug networks, you don't arrest and hold the low level street vendors like Joe the Spoon for any real length of time(unless he's caught with a metric buttload of hard drugs). You get them to roll over on their bosses and move your way towards the big fish.

Same principle should apply here.

**hcordes**

The biggest problem in this country is no one wants to see the bigger picture, everyone wants to get on their soap box and preach. There are too many party lines, too many agendas, too much 'racism', no one that wants to do the hard work.

I get it says resonable whatever, but truth be told, Anything out there gets thrown into racial profiling just because the officer or the people behind the politics are 'white'.

I have to card everyone in a group of people that goes into the liquor section at work, thats company policy in conjuction with state law that says its illegal to purchace liqour for a minor. I had three African Americans bring up a bottle of booze, i asked for everyones ID, and then the smart-a** dude says 'Why? Cuz i'm black?'
I look and say "no... why would you ask that? is that cuz i'm white?"

my point..... no matter what it is, there will always be acusations of "profiling" people need to get over themselves and realize that there are bigger issues in this country other than who's rights MIGHT be getting violated by something that is protecting ACTUAL US CITIZENS.