What exactly is wrong with Arizona Immigration Law SB1070?

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**Frazzled**

Kanluwen wrote:Oh, I'm sorry. I guess I'm not on the frontline of the war against Mexico.

Must've missed that memo, what with having large amounts of illegal immigrants in NC coming from Central America.

yea you did. The Mexican army is flying helicopters over into NC airspace and battling it out with the cartels. NC doesn't have the kidnapping record this year related to cartel/drugs.

**Redbeard**

Kanluwen wrote:
When dealing with drug networks, you don't arrest and hold the low level street vendors like Joe the Spoon for any real length of time(unless he's caught with a metric buttload of hard drugs). You get them to roll over on their bosses and move your way towards the big fish.

Same principle should apply here.

If you executed all the street level dealers, then there would be no more drug network. The problem is exactly that they don't go after the street level guys enough, because that doesn't make a DA's career, big busts do. Catch&release should be for sport fishing, not criminals.

**Kanluwen**

hcordes wrote:The biggest problem in this country is no one wants to see the bigger picture, everyone wants to get on their soap box and preach. There are too many party lines, too many agendas, too much 'racism', no one that wants to do the hard work.

I get it says reasonable whatever, but truth be told, Anything out there gets thrown into racial profiling just because the officer or the people behind the politics are 'white'.

I have to card everyone in a group of people that goes into the liquor section at work, that's company policy in conjunction with state law that says its illegal to purchase liquor for a minor. I had three African Americans bring up a bottle of booze, i asked for everyone's ID, and then the smart-a** dude says 'Why? Cuz I'm black?'
I look and say "no... why would you ask that? is that cuz I'm white?"

my point..... no matter what it is, there will always be accusations of "profiling" people need to get over themselves and realize that there are bigger issues in this country other than who's rights MIGHT be getting violated by something that is protecting ACTUAL US CITIZENS.

No, it's racial profiling because it's targeting someone with the idea of race being foremost in mind.

You're not picking a guy who's going under the speed limit, avoiding heavily policed areas, and doing everything in their power to look inconspicuous.

**Frazzled**

SilverMK2 wrote:
Frazzled wrote:You'd still have a passport no?

Yes, but as I said, it is not "any valid federal, state, or local government-issued identification", it is identification issued by the redcoats. In which there is a visa stamp, which in itself is not ID, nor does it grant me any guaranteed rights to enter or remain the US.

I'm, sure its going to be a problem for any English who are visiting the Arizona/Mexico border.

**Kanluwen**

Frazzled wrote:
Kanluwen wrote:Oh, I'm sorry. I guess I'm not on the frontline of the war against Mexico.

Must've missed that memo, what with having large amounts of illegal immigrants in NC coming from Central America.

yea you did. The Mexican army is flying helicopters over into NC airspace and battling it out with the cartels. NC doesn't have the kidnapping record this year related to cartel/drugs.

And since bloody when are they flying over Texas or Arizona?

Get over yourselves border states.

**pombe**

Kanluwen wrote:
So rather than wasting tax dollars arresting them--go after the people hiring them as a cheap labor force.

When dealing with drug networks, you don't arrest and hold the low level street vendors like Joe the Spoon for any real length of time(unless he's caught with a metric buttload of hard drugs). You get them to roll over on their bosses and move your way towards the big fish.

Same principle should apply here.

I don't disagree with you.

But (as someone who's not familiar with all the politics behind illegal immigration), my guess is that it's not politically viable to go after these employers, which is why they had to go after the immigrants themselves.

The Big Fish Drug guys are political bad guys...things that the politicians can sell to voters as boogie men. The Big Illegal Immigrant Employer might not be in such an easy position to go after.

**hcordes**

When did Illegals from ANY COUNTRY, suddenly need to have all these rights? I agree if you can't come to this country and do it legally, you ARE NOT A CITIZEN of this country, and thus all the rights of a LEGAL CITIZEN should not be yours. Since you do not have any rights as an ILLEGAL ALIEN, then we should send you back to your country however we see fit.

When my wife was in the Hospital having our baby girl, the nurse mentioned something about how they have to let illegal mothers give birth, and the tax payers pick up the bill?? Then because they have thier kid on US soil, the kid of course is a citizen then the mother gets to have a visa because she has to take care of her child... for free?? well not for free.... Joe American like me, tax payer, 40hr work week has to pay for it.

**Kanluwen**

You do realize that not every person who can be classified as an illegal alien is here "TO TAKE YER JERBS!" or be an economic sinkhole, yes?

Automatically Appended Next Post:

pombe wrote:
I don't disagree with you.

But (as someone who's not familiar with all the politics behind illegal immigration), my guess is that it's not politically viable to go after these employers, which is why they had to go after the immigrants themselves.

The Big Fish Drug guys are political bad guys...things that the politicians can sell to voters as boogie men. The Big Illegal Immigrant Employer might not be in such an easy position to go after.

And right there is the problem.
It's easier to scaremonger the public into thinking "THEM IMMIGRANTS GONNA GITCHA!" than "Help us take down Wal-Mart, which provides you low low prices by being one of the largest employers of illegal immigrants in the country".

**hcordes**

Kanluwen wrote:
So rather than wasting tax dollars arresting them--go after the people hiring them as a cheap labor force.
.

there this a wiki link to it at the begining of the thread. it says the there are fines and even jail time to individuals that are knowingly transports/harbors illegals.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
p.s. Walmart is whole nother ball o'wax, besides just plain violating actual labor laws.

**Kanluwen**

To individuals.

That means the people transporting them over the border(the coyotes/drivers) and any individuals offering them shelter.

It says nothing about companies, now does it?

**malfred**

mattyrm wrote:
If a 5 foot 9 hairy guy with a Middlesbrough accent blew up a bus or something, then id expect to get pulled over. I would deal with it, if i havent done anything, then ive nothing to fear.

It would take more than that:

**Frazzled**

Kanluwen wrote:
Frazzled wrote:
Kanluwen wrote:Oh, I'm sorry. I guess I'm not on the frontline of the war against Mexico.

Must've missed that memo, what with having large amounts of illegal immigrants in NC coming from Central America.

yea you did. The Mexican army is flying helicopters over into NC airspace and battling it out with the cartels. NC doesn't have the kidnapping record this year related to cartel/drugs.

And since bloody when are they flying over Texas or Arizona?

Get over yourselves border states.

Maybe you should read up on current events before you type?
http://current.com/news-and-politics/89475866_mexican-army-soldiers-captured-in-yuma-arizona.htm

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fViOuhkhejc

I'd be down with the federal government controlling the border. Thats their freeking job. But they will not do it-too many special interests are providing campaign contributions to inure the border is kept open.

**hcordes**

Kanluwen wrote:To individuals.

That means the people transporting them over the border(the coyotes/drivers) and any individuals offering them shelter.

It says nothing about companies, now does it?

Well if I have a company truck and I pick up a bunch of illegals at the local home depot, and get pulled over, you think they would just stop at me? it would carry over into the company... because they would have to ask "is it company policy to hire illegals?" and then they would end up investigating the company.

I just asked my Oakland PD friend, and he says this is way it was explained to him. But he is not entirely sure since he works in CA not AZ

**ShivanAngel**

hcordes wrote:
When my wife was in the Hospital having our baby girl, the nurse mentioned something about how they have to let illegal mothers give birth, and the tax payers pick up the bill?? Then because they have thier kid on US soil, the kid of course is a citizen then the mother gets to have a visa because she has to take care of her child... for free?? well not for free.... Joe American like me, tax payer, 40hr work week has to pay for it.

This 100000000000000x. I live in Texas and am a registered nurse. It really pisses me off that a 21 year old mexican, having her fourth kid cause she cant keep her legs shut, is surviving on WIC and food stamps, only because she made it over the border before gaking out her kid. They also get medicaid because their kids a citizen. Guess who gets the to foot that medical bill.... Yup the hospital and the taxpayers...

In my opinion Arizona is setting a great precedent, and honestly I would like to see harsher penalties for being here illegally. Lets start putting up those signs on the border fences that shows the little dude crossing the fence getting shot.

**Kanluwen**

Frazzled wrote:
Kanluwen wrote:
Frazzled wrote:
Kanluwen wrote:Oh, I'm sorry. I guess I'm not on the frontline of the war against Mexico.

Must've missed that memo, what with having large amounts of illegal immigrants in NC coming from Central America.

yea you did. The Mexican army is flying helicopters over into NC airspace and battling it out with the cartels. NC doesn't have the kidnapping record this year related to cartel/drugs.

And since bloody when are they flying over Texas or Arizona?

Get over yourselves border states.

Maybe you should read up on current events before you type?
http://current.com/news-and-politics/89475866_mexican-army-soldiers-captured-in-yuma-arizona.htm

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fViOuhkhejc

I'd be down with the federal government controlling the border. That's their freaking job. But they will not do it-too many special interests are providing campaign contributions to inure the border is kept open.

Uh, your news article is about people getting lost and crossing the border by accident.

There's no "capturing".

Also:
The Mexican Navy Helicopter...lol?
Your own video also says that the FAA and Customs/Border Protection knew about it. Why would they object to an overflight by an old piece of Russian garbage?

**agnosto**

Frazzled wrote:
Maybe you should read up on current events before you type?
http://current.com/news-and-politics/89475866_mexican-army-soldiers-captured-in-yuma-arizona.htm

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fViOuhkhejc

I'd be down with the federal government controlling the border. Thats their freeking job. But they will not do it-too many special interests are providing campaign contributions to inure the border is kept open.

Dude, have you even been to Yuma? It's more Mexican than American, no matter what the map says....more so than Brownsville.

The only thing I'd be concerned about is some poor schmuck leaves his house without his ID to walk down to the corner store and buy a candy bar then gets picked up by a cop on a mission from gawd to nail all dem der illegalz to the wall. Said poor schmuck looks brown, doesn't have ID on him and then finds himself in Juarez with $5 and no way to get back home.

http://stateswithoutnations.blogspot.com/2009/04/us-kidnaps-mark-lyttle-leaves-him.html

http://articles.sfgate.com/2009-07-27/news/17218849_1_judy-rabinovitz-immigration-laws-illegal-immigrant

http://www.mcclatchydc.com/2008/01/24/25392/immigration-officials-detaining.html

My point is, if the feds screw up so much and deport US citizens, when local yokels have the ability, it's going to be much, much worse.

**Kanluwen**

hcordes wrote:
Kanluwen wrote:To individuals.

That means the people transporting them over the border(the coyotes/drivers) and any individuals offering them shelter.

It says nothing about companies, now does it?

Well if I have a company truck and I pick up a bunch of illegals at the local home depot, and get pulled over, you think they would just stop at me? it would carry over into the company... because they would have to ask "is it company policy to hire illegals?" and then they would end up investigating the company.

I just asked my Oakland PD friend, and he says this is way it was explained to him. But he is not entirely sure since he works in CA not AZ

Depends on the company

If you're some small-time company owned by a private backer: You're fethed.

If you're Wal-Mart, you get the smile and nod to keep on trucking to provide Fox News' viewer base with more lard to sit on!

**hcordes**

ShivanAngel wrote:
hcordes wrote:
When my wife was in the Hospital having our baby girl, the nurse mentioned something about how they have to let illegal mothers give birth, and the tax payers pick up the bill?? Then because they have thier kid on US soil, the kid of course is a citizen then the mother gets to have a visa because she has to take care of her child... for free?? well not for free.... Joe American like me, tax payer, 40hr work week has to pay for it.

This 100000000000000x. I live in Texas and am a registered nurse. It really pisses me off that a 21 year old mexican, having her fourth kid cause she cant keep her legs shut, is surviving on WIC and food stamps, only because she made it over the border before gaking out her kid. They also get medicaid because their kids a citizen. Guess who gets the to foot that medical bill.... Yup the hospital and the taxpayers...

In my opinion Arizona is setting a great precedent, and honestly I would like to see harsher penalties for being here illegally. Lets start putting up those signs on the border fences that shows the little dude crossing the fence getting shot.

OH jeez, WIC and Food Stamps... there is another can of worms... any kind of state help like that, my wife and I can't qualify for because we make too much money, we barely scrap by, we both work 40+ hours a week, flip flop schedules never see each other, have to juggle the kids back and forth, and have no money in the Bank at the end of the month. But we make too much money??!?!? Half the time I wonder if it would be better if we both quit our jobs, got on section 8, food stamps, and WiC, we'd prolly end up with more money at the end of the month. *sighs*

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Kanluwen wrote:
Depends on the company

If you're some small-time company owned by a private backer: You're fethed.

If you're Wal-Mart, you get the smile and nod to keep on trucking to provide Fox News' viewer base with more lard to sit on!

I think eventually everyone gets what they deserve, no matter how big a company you are.

**Kilkrazy**

The law sounds like our Suss law of the 70s, which was repealed in the 80s because it caused too many riots, and was brought back under guise of Terrorism legislation in the 2000s.

Basically it allows the police to stop and search people on suspicion.

The problem with the law was that it was disproportionately used against black people, who not unnaturally saw that as evidence of racism on the part of the police.

I imagine Arizona and other border states probably have a high proportion of legal Mexican-American residents, who are going to be on the receiving end of the big stick as much as any illegals.

BTW there is a similar law in Japan which allows the police to stop and ask any foreigner they like for his passport or Alien Registration Card which must be carried at all times.

The Japanese have the advantage that they can easily pick on non-Japanese looking people suspecting them to be foreign. However they also pick on non-Japanese looking Japanese people (naturalised citizens) who are not obliged by law to carry ID, and this can cause friction.

**mattyrm**

agnosto wrote:
Dude, have you even been to Yuma? It's more Mexican than American, no matter what the map says....more so than Brownsville.

The only thing I'd be concerned about is some poor schmuck leaves his house without his ID to walk down to the corner store and buy a candy bar then gets picked up by a cop on a mission from gawd to nail all dem der illegalz to the wall. Said poor schmuck looks brown, doesn't have ID on him and then finds himself in Juarez with $5 and no way to get back home.

http://stateswithoutnations.blogspot.com/2009/04/us-kidnaps-mark-lyttle-leaves-him.html

http://articles.sfgate.com/2009-07-27/news/17218849_1_judy-rabinovitz-immigration-laws-illegal-immigrant

http://www.mcclatchydc.com/2008/01/24/25392/immigration-officials-detaining.html

My point is, if the feds screw up so much and deport US citizens, when local yokels have the ability, it's going to be much, much worse.

Ok thats a good argument against at least.

**hcordes**

the only logical step is to just buy out Mexico, and chop it up into a couple more states, and have done with it, how does that joke go?

everyone that can run and swim or whatever?

then no more illegal mexican problem... then all we have to worry about are those darn Canadians.

**Frazzled**

hcordes wrote:the only logical step is to just buy out Mexico, and chop it up into a couple more states, and have done with it, how does that joke go?

everyone that can run and swim or whatever?

then no more illegal mexican problem... then all we have to worry about are those darn Canadians.

Thats what the second pincer is for. Task Force Girl Scout infiltrates under the guise of a GS convention. Voila the Oil Sands are ours!

Automatically Appended Next Post:

agnosto wrote:

Dude, have you even been to Yuma? It's more Mexican than American, no matter what the map says....more so than Brownsville.

I took the 3.10 to Yuma once.

**Soladrin**

So... if i got this right.... white people can't be immigrants or something?XD

**agnosto**

Kilkrazy wrote:The law sounds like our Suss law of the 70s, which was repealed in the 80s because it caused too many riots, and was brought back under guise of Terrorism legislation in the 2000s.

Basically it allows the police to stop and search people on suspicion.

The problem with the law was that it was disproportionately used against black people, who not unnaturally saw that as evidence of racism on the part of the police.

I imagine Arizona and other border states probably have a high proportion of legal Mexican-American residents, who are going to be on the receiving end of the big stick as much as any illegals.

BTW there is a similar law in Japan which allows the police to stop and ask any foreigner they like for his passport or Alien Registration Card which must be carried at all times.

The Japanese have the advantage that they can easily pick on non-Japanese looking people suspecting them to be foreign. However they also pick on non-Japanese looking Japanese people (naturalised citizens) who are not obliged by law to carry ID, and this can cause friction.

We already have probable cause laws that allow police to detain and question if they have even the slightest evidence of wrong-doing (i.e., speeding violation) this is what you see on the show "Cops" when the officer pulls a car over for speeding to some other traffic infraction then finds drugs or something.

The whole time I lived in Asia, I was never once asked for ID except when entering a country. In fact, I was lost in Tokyo (I forget which ward) and a police officer walked away from me when I asked him, in my terrible Japanese, where the train station was. LOL. Ah, memories. That's not to say, they are lax; to the contrary, when I first entered the country, I was detained in Narita airport because my visa document had some writing on it that some twit at the dispatch service I was going to work for had scribbled on it. They checked my story and contacted the service then let me go after I wrote an apology and spoke with some official. Quite a surreal experience.

**Frazzled**

Er...define "white people" in relation. But yea everyone can be an immigrant. Especially if they are this guy.

**hcordes**

Soladrin wrote:So... if i got this right.... white people can't be immigrants or something?XD

yes, the general reasoning is that white people do it legally. the problem here is that in *most* states with a LARGE illegal problem have an issue with Mexican immigrants, unfortunetly round here when someone says illegal immigrant most will automatically think of a mexican.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
You left out the most famous illegal.

**ShivanAngel**

hcordes wrote:
Soladrin wrote:So... if i got this right.... white people can't be immigrants or something?XD

yes, the general reasoning is that white people do it legally. the problem here is that in *most* states with a LARGE illegal problem have an issue with Mexican immigrants, unfortunetly round here when someone says illegal immigrant most will automatically think of a mexican.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
You left out the most famous illegal.

You also forgot to mention that he isnt a drain on society!

**hcordes**

Of course Superman is a drain, you think he pays for building damage? Does he pay for medical bills of the people he may or may not accidently injure?? Besides him taking perfectly good superhero jobs from people born on THIS planet.

*note* all superheros are drains.. since no one knows who they are, no one gets a bills to pay for damage except Joe Taxpayer. */note*

**Frazzled**

Thats why batman was forced to kick his teeth in.

**ShivanAngel**

hcordes wrote:Of course Superman is a drain, you think he pays for building damage? Does he pay for medical bills of the people he may or may not accidently injure?? Besides him taking perfectly good superhero jobs from people born on THIS planet.

*note* all superheros are drains.. since no one knows who they are, no one gets a bills to pay for damage except Joe Taxpayer. */note*

However it COULD be argued that the only reason said damages happened were because of the supervillian.

If the supervillian wasnt around superman would have never been kicked through the tower....

HOWEVER if there were no supervillians then there would be no need for superheros!

THAT being said then they would be the same as any other illegal!!!!

/headasplodes!!!