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Alrighty Dakka, whats the verdict for a transport, and yes I'm only taking a small troop of five people.

For me it's razorbacks. Rarely do I want my mounted troops to actually assault anyone so I keep them in their box and drive around shooting the heavy bolter.

I would...but I like to give my troops a lascannon...and having it able to fire out of the rhino makes it sexy to me... this is my conundrum.

You can't give 5 Marines a lascannon, so put them in a razorback and buy a lascannon turret instead.

You can if your a black templar

Well then you kinda answered your own question, now didn't you?

Dracos wrote:Well then you kinda answered your own question, now didn't you?

Thats what I like to do but I'm trying to figure out whats better, to have my troops shooting the lascannon out of the fire point of the Rhino, OR just have the Razorback shooting a lascannon until something pops it.

The razorback can move 6" and still shoot. The troop lascannon can't fire if the rhino moves at all.

Arschbombe wrote:The razorback can move 6" and still shoot. The troop lascannon can't fire if the rhino moves at all.

Ahhhhh didn't know that! thank you kind sir, I know what I'm using now haha

Razorbacks are my favorite! they are so versatile!

Dude, you're paying 40 extra points to get the ability to move and shoot instead of standing still. Oh, and you get to twin-link your lascannon. BT razorbacks are HORRIBLY expensive.

I'm going to expand just a bit on this.

Things change when you start adding in HQs and what not. If you take a Librarian/rune priest, they need firing ports to use any ranged shooting psychic power. In which case the two fireports on the rhino are clearly the better option. This also includes units that can use special weapons.

So take a rhino with a ten man marine squad. Combat squad out the lascannon/missile launcher and then stick the other dudes in the rhino to allow for the melta/flamer/plasma to shoot while the unit is safe as they move into position to use those weapons.

Apostle
If you're only taking 5 guys the razor back is pure win. Rhinos have a way of standing around looking silly after their guys get out. Razor backs keep the pressure on.
AF

AlmightyWalrus wrote:Dude, you're paying 40 extra points to get the ability to move and shoot instead of standing still. Oh, and you get to twin-link your lascannon. BT razorbacks are HORRIBLY expensive.

They are not over pointed for me because they make my tac squads so much more effective. The synergistic effect outweighs their point value. i imagine this is the case more many people and a primary reason why they are popular choices ATM.

While the razorback has more offensive power, it's seen as a much bigger threat than the seemingly harmless rhino. the point of dedicated transport isn't to be shooty, but to transport you troops. That means moving 12'' and makes the HB useless.

waasssdddd wrote:While the razorback has more offensive power, it's seen as a much bigger threat than the seemingly harmless rhino.

My razorbacks don't usually attract a lot of attention because I have baal predators, dreadnoughts and pods that pose more immediate threats. I only run TLHBs though. I find that my razorbacks will attract the fire of mid-strength weapons that either can't hurt the heavier stuff or is very unlikely to.

the point of dedicated transport isn't to be shooty, but to transport you troops. That means moving 12'' and makes the HB useless.

That's true if you are counting on your troops to accomplish significant things. If you are running 5-man squads, you're kinda already thinking of them as disposable objective holders/grabbers and not really counting on them to deal or absorb a lot of damage. You've probably got other parts of your army that take the fight to the enemy.

Well, the Razorback become more popular with the option to combat squad a large SM unit.
A 5 men squad with melta and combi-melta, or flamer and combi-flamer,
and an associated Razorback can complement each other very well.

waaassss
to your point I agree long range weapons on a razor back don't make much sense. I would take heavy flamers since the main restriction of a flame thrower is that you need to be close, and the razor back will be getting close anyway. It's twin linked so if you cover 8 guys you'll probably force 6-8 saves, if they get any at all. That hurts even marines. AF

Why do razorbacks need to get close?

I originally started using them because of how the death company was treated in the late pdf BA codex. Each infantry unit was more expensive than it's C:SM counterpart (except termies) because they included "free" death company. It was more points efficient to run 5 man squads to increase the number of these "free" death company and 5 man squads couldn't get heavies. Assault squads didn't have access to razorbacks so I used tacs. Razorbacks were a way to get a heavier weapon on the field. The 5-man squad was just there to make the razorback scoring. Units that I actually wanted to assault with used jump packs.

If you're looking for a mobile, scoring (with the squad) armored box with a heavy weapon on it, the razorback is a pretty good deal. If you are looking for a transport to deliver a unit somewhere safely so it can then shoot or assault then the rhino is the better bet. There is no one right answer for everyone. It depends on what you want to do and how you wish to play your army.

I guess they don't *have* to get close.... usually you buy a transport to move... often towards the enemy but not always.

A razorback with a long range weapon on it suffers from "land raider syndrome" - you're paying for guns and for movement but you're only ever using 1 at a time, so no matter what you do you're overpaying. Just as a LR Redeemer resolves this problem for the land raider (ie I get my guys to the target then I start burning stuff) the heavy flamer build solves it for the razorback. Additionally you'll be committing to a gunline strategy, which does not play to marine's strong suit.

If I wanted to use foot-sloggin marines, I would totally get a razorback as their transport, leave them out, and add more vehicles to kill with. Razors never need to move an inch, all they need to do is provide SUPPORT firepower. They won't remove that unit over there, but the ensuing assault led by your assault marines sure will. They also, with lascannons, can defeat tough tanks and vehicles at range, again, supporting your tacticals and protecting them from nasty dreads, tanks, and even the occaisional LR.

Apostle Pat wrote:Alrighty Dakka, whats the verdict for a transport, and yes I'm only taking a small troop of five people.

Yeah, give them the razorback. The can all fit into the transport and have HB's or LC's to make up for the lack of firepower

Razorbacks provide mobile firepower. Also, unlike landraiders and rhinos, their job isn't to drive closer, its to drive away. What, you just deep striked that squad next to my razorback firebase? Better start moving. C'mon, play chase the transport, I dare you.

Anyways, I've always felt that tactical squads were a bit inefficient when it comes to points vs firepower. With really bad weapon combinations (very short with heavy long range weapons) being pushed on them, I just like them as cheap as possible. So that means I take razors, with TL plasma + lascannon. Same firepower against heavy things as a las plas marine squad has, but without paying for the extra bolter guys. It's design philosophy is similar to my sister of battle army that has more heavy flamers and melta guns than it has bolters. Why pay points for bolters when you can have high S good AP or template weapons?

AbaddonFidelis wrote:I guess they don't *have* to get close.... usually you buy a transport to move... often towards the enemy but not always.

A razorback with a long range weapon on it suffers from "land raider syndrome" - you're paying for guns and for movement but you're only ever using 1 at a time, so no matter what you do you're overpaying. Just as a LR Redeemer resolves this problem for the land raider (ie I get my guys to the target then I start burning stuff) the heavy flamer build solves it for the razorback. Additionally you'll be committing to a gunline strategy, which does not play to marine's strong suit.

This is entirely incorrect.. I'm not sure if you realize this, but the normal LR can move 6" and fire both lascannons at separate targets due to PotMS. Or you can move 12" and still fire one weapon due to PotMS. So yes they can move and shoot therefore using both. Sure, they can't use their MAX move AND Max fire, but thats far from being only able to use one or the other at a time.

Flame templates absolutely do not play to the MEQ advantage, as their BS 4 is wasted. You have stated that a gunline is not effective for Marines, but that is not true. Just because you can't get it to work doesn't mean that the gunline marine armies don't work well.

Dracos.
I do realize this. A transport moving at 1/2 of its movement is only doing 1/2 of it's primary job: which is to deliver the infantry squad. For that reason, while you can slow down your land raider to shoot to full effectiveness, it's not really a good idea. You need to choose a role for your tanks and stick to it, not halve their effectiveness by trying to get them to do two things at once.

BS 4 is good but auto-hitting is better. Hence flamer templates, even for marines, are an upgrade from the to-hit perspective.

The converse to your point about "just because I can't get it to work doesn't mean it's bad" is that "just because you beat your buddy with it 1 time doesn't mean it's good." I would give a marine gunline good odds against certain opponents (orks) but they're doomed against others (tau, guard) because they don't have the goods to outshoot them. This is playing rock paper scissors, not 40k, so I don't think it's a viable strategy.
AF

I played in Astronomi-con and came in 4th beating 2 guard gunlines with my marine mobile gunline. edit: I should clarify, the first player played mech-vets with 2 vendettas (the 3 tl lascannons), 2 russ hulls (demo and plasma) and chimeras. The 2nd was a hybrid foot/mech list.

I have experience to prove it.

My losses were to 1st place eldar (the guy wins the events in canada all the time, he won the same event in another city a couple months prior) and 3rd place orks (who made a rules error I didnt catch and won the game because of it).




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AbaddonFidelis wrote:Dracos.
I do realize this. A transport moving at 1/2 of its movement is only doing 1/2 of it's primary job: which is to deliver the infantry squad. For that reason, while you can slow down your land raider to shoot to full effectiveness, it's not really a good idea. You need to choose a role for your tanks and stick to it, not halve their effectiveness by trying to get them to do two things at once.

BS 4 is good but auto-hitting is better. Hence flamer templates, even for marines, are an upgrade from the to-hit perspective.

The converse to your point about "just because I can't get it to work doesn't mean it's bad" is that "just because you beat your buddy with it 1 time doesn't mean it's good." I would give a marine gunline good odds against certain opponents (orks) but they're doomed against others (tau, guard) because they don't have the goods to outshoot them. This is playing rock paper scissors, not 40k, so I don't think it's a viable strategy.
AF

Why does the LR have to deliver its cargo so fast? Saying that a marine player needs to choose a role and stick to it is missing the point of the flexibility in their units. I think we have vastly different views on how to play marines. What your saying implies that razorbacks are useless, because if they don't move 12" they are wasting half their primary job.

You are missing a wide range of what makes marines good. Mobile gunlines like to move 6" a turn to get their shooting in. Sure their are times when you need to close the gap immediately, but that is not as common as you are saying.

AlmightyWalrus wrote:Dude, you're paying 40 extra points to get the ability to move and shoot instead of standing still. Oh, and you get to twin-link your lascannon. BT razorbacks are HORRIBLY expensive.

Your very right hahahahahaha...

15 more points than the exact same model from the Vanilla Marines... I've been experimenting with different ways to use my troop choice which are the Initiates and just them, so I tried selecting drop pods with deathwind missile launchers and instead of putting them in the DP I just have them deployed already and use the DP as gun I can put anywhere on the field, its a good idea in theory but having those initiates run is kinda crappy...specially against my tau friend who likes to field 9 crysis suits >.>

I may just drop transports totally though, having a squad that can be up to 20 guys is kinda awesome lol, but nothing can hold that many guys so walking/running maybe the way to go.

Thanks everyone for the input, I'm definitely getting some much needed tips.

Dracos
what I said was that once the marines get out of the razorback it's done it's main job so it's nice to have something else for it to do afterwards. Scroll up to confirm.

Yes I don't believe in flexibility as a primary role for a unit. I believe in defining the mission, picking the best unit for that mission, and then performing that mission 1st in the battle. Anything they do after that is gravy. That may be a difference in play styles though so whatever.

What was your gunline list? What was theirs? Won't criticize or argue I'm just curious to see it.
AF

I didn't get copies of either players list, as they didn't bring copies for everyone :(

Tourny was 1500 points

I ran my standard

HQ Librarian Terminator armor, storm shield, force weapon, psychic hood (avenger, nullzone) 140
Elite Terminator Assault Squad (5) 4x Thunder hammer + storm shield, 1x Twin Lightning claws 200
Dedicated Transport Landraider Crusader multimelta, extra armor 275
Troops Tactical Squad (10) 7xboltgun, 1x flamer, 1x missile launcher, sgt: chainsword + bolt pistol 170
Dedicated Transport Rhino 35
Troops Tactical Squad (5) 4xboltgun, sgt: boltgun 90
Dedicated Transport Razorback TL assault cannon 75
Troops Tactical Squad (5) 4xboltgun, sgt: boltgun 90
Dedicated Transport Razorback TL assault cannon 75
Fast Attack Landspeeder Tornado Squad (2) 2x(Heavy flamer + multimelta) 140
Fast Attack Landspeeder Typhoon Typhoon missiles + heavy bolter 90
Heavy Predator Autocannon, 2x lascannon side sponsons 120

The mechvet guy was something like

CCS 3?4?plasma
2x vets in chimera 3xmelta
1x vets in chimera 3xplasma
1x vets in vendetta 3x melta
1x vets in vendetta 3x plasma
russ demolisher
russ executioner (i think, the plasma one anyways)

I tabled this guy. He got first turn and the alpha strike was devastating, but all it took was protecting my LR and delivering the terminators.

the hybrid guy I'm not entirely clear on. something like

straken with CCS? they had plasma in chimera
1x pcs in chimera meltas
2x infantry squads with autocannons
1x HWS lascannons
1x HWS autocannons
1x outflanking penal legion
LRBT
LR demolisher
hellhound? (poison template fast tank)

This guy I beat on objectives.

Other armies I played beat were CSM and Nids.


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Taking small units of 5 marines in a razorback works even for C:SM. You just have to realize that all they are going to be doing is staying in their ride as long as possible and offering support fire to soften targets for the terminators and take objectives.