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Hmmm.... thanks for sharing.... No one in my area runs mech guard, but as near as I can tell they try to kill the other team with a combination of artillary and special weapon spam.

AbaddonFidelis wrote:Dracos
what I said was that once the marines get out of the razorback it's done it's main job so it's nice to have something else for it to do afterwards. Scroll up to confirm.

Yes I don't believe in flexibility as a primary role for a unit. I believe in defining the mission, picking the best unit for that mission, and then performing that mission 1st in the battle. Anything they do after that is gravy. That may be a difference in play styles though so whatever.

What was your gunline list? What was theirs? Won't criticize or argue I'm just curious to see it.
AF

Wait, you get out of your razorbacks? I never get out unless shot out.

On the topic of LR moving, my crusader first turn usually just moves 12 and pops smoke. Mostly since its a 24 inch range vehicle, and its hurricane and MM shots aren't very good at that range. After that though I just move 6 and fire everything, daring my opponent to leave something in assault range. Forcing your opponent to move based on what is inside is often more powerful than sending them out. (my termies die a depressingly large amount against small arms.) If I was running a regular LR, I would pretty much just hang back and use the cargo as counter charge. If I was running a redeemer, I would always move as fast as I could so I could use at least one of the weapons to great effect (super short range of the flame template require fast movement to get into position). I tailor my LR movement on which variant I run. TH/SH termies are going to be fine safe in their hug box, they don't really need to go out there right away and do their thing. They are cheap for what they can do you know. (and yes, 200 points for a dedicated assault squad is cheap) The LR is not, so might as well get as much out of the shooting while you can. (and if you rush into melta range, that won't be very long)

wuestenfux wrote:Well, the Razorback become more popular with the option to combat squad a large SM unit.
A 5 men squad with melta and combi-melta, or flamer and combi-flamer,
and an associated Razorback can complement each other very well.

How? The Razorback doesn't have any fire points.

Codex: Space Marines (page 77) wrote:Fire points: None.

I do realize this. A transport moving at 1/2 of its movement is only doing 1/2 of it's primary job: which is to deliver the infantry squad. For that reason, while you can slow down your land raider to shoot to full effectiveness, it's not really a good idea. You need to choose a role for your tanks and stick to it, not halve their effectiveness by trying to get them to do two things at once.

There's more to using a transport then moving 12" every turn. It depends on the situation, the unit inside and the mission.

If a razorback carrying a scoring units moves 6" or less all game but then moves 12" to claim the objective at the end of the game -- I think it has fullfilled its role quite well. Even better if it was able to provide additional firepower throughout the game.

notabot
I don't run razorbacks. I was just making a point to Dracos that if you sit back and shoot with a lascannon it's a waste of the squad's potential. How many points does that 1 lascannon cost? The vehicle isn't moving, the guys inside aren't doing anything. It's a bad use of resources. At least if you get up close your marines can contest or claim the central objectives, you can use their rapid firing bolters, their attacks, etc., and you can still use the razorback's gun. What you don't want is your guys getting stranded in the backfield and having to spend the rest of the game holding the rear objective.

Against lascannon fire the Land Raider is probably safe but if you're getting in their face with it.... there are just too many meltaguns out there right now for me to feel safe. I want to use the assault vehicle rule, which is the main reason to bring the frikkin thing imo. The crusader and redeemer are both nice. The crusader is probably stronger since it can carry more terminators and that's the Land Raider's primary mission, but the redeemer's templates can be pretty devestating too... I like them both. I agree you want to use their shooting as much as possible...
AF


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winter
if a razorback carrying 5 marines moves 6" all game while shooting its lascannon and then 12" at the last moment to claim an objective, then all the use you got out of a 200+ point unit was to shoot a lascannon 4 times (you don't know when the game is going to end, remember.) Look at it this way: would you pay 50 points to shoot a lascannon once? If not then you shouldnt pay 200 to shoot it four times.

The objective holding is besides the point since they can do that with or without the razorback. If you want to play your best game you have to get full use out of your units on every single turn.
AF

AbaddonFidelis wrote:notabot
I don't run razorbacks. I was just making a point to Dracos that if you sit back and shoot with a lascannon it's a waste of the squad's potential. How many points does that 1 lascannon cost? The vehicle isn't moving, the guys inside aren't doing anything. It's a bad use of resources. At least if you get up close your marines can contest or claim the central objectives, you can use their rapid firing bolters, their attacks, etc., and you can still use the razorback's gun. What you don't want is your guys getting stranded in the backfield and having to spend the rest of the game holding the rear objective.

Against lascannon fire the Land Raider is probably safe but if you're getting in their face with it.... there are just too many meltaguns out there right now for me to feel safe. I want to use the assault vehicle rule, which is the main reason to bring the frikkin thing imo. The crusader and redeemer are both nice. The crusader is probably stronger since it can carry more terminators and that's the Land Raider's primary mission, but the redeemer's templates can be pretty devestating too... I like them both. I agree you want to use their shooting as much as possible...
AF


Automatically Appended Next Post:
winter
if a razorback carrying 5 marines moves 6" all game while shooting its lascannon and then 12" at the last moment to claim an objective, then all the use you got out of a 200+ point unit was to shoot a lascannon 4 times (you don't know when the game is going to end, remember.) Look at it this way: would you pay 50 points to shoot a lascannon once? If not then you shouldnt pay 200 to shoot it four times.

The objective holding is besides the point since they can do that with or without the razorback. If you want to play your best game you have to get full use out of your units on every single turn.
AF

I think your math on the shots you get is kind of wonky here, AF.

Ten tac marines in a rhino pay 210 points to have a lascannon that they can shoot if they don't move.

Five tac marines in a razorback pay 165 points for a lascannon (on the razor) that can shoot every turn whether you move or not. And the lascannon is twinlinked.

So for the cost of two rhinos full of tac marines that can get a max of 2 lascannon shots--as long as they don't move--you can get 3 razorbacks with 3 twin-linked lascannon shots and make a wall of razors rolling forward 6" every turn while shooting.

I think you're suffering from Ailarositis with the idea that a transport has to haul a$$ full speed toward the enemy every turn or else be a waste of points. Maybe it's because of all those years I spent playing Eldar in 3rd and 4th edition, Nobody accuses a falcon full of dire avengers that stands off and shoots of being a waste of points. Like a falcon, a razorback is a light gunboat that also happens to carry troops.

AF,

You seem to have a fundamentally different approach to how you build your lists. I use razorbacks as mobile cover, support fire platforms and objective grabbers. The troops inside are often superfluous though I often add a special weapon and a fist or power weapon to them "just in case." I don't expect much of them so I'm not disappointed when they fail to accomplish much or "get their points back." For my codex (BA) they are the best option I have for holding objectives on my side of the table when the rest of my army takes the fight to the enemy. A six man assault squad with fist and melta gun costs with 173 with the razorback. I think it's a good deal.

Flavius
90 + 75 = 165 it's true but who runs tac squads without upgrades? I'm assuming the presence of a powerweapon or a plasmagun, extra armor on the razorback, etc. 35 points seems like a fair estimate to me.... especially when you consider how many dakkites were ra-raing for power fists on the other thread... that's 25 extra points right there.

At least the razorback can move some and shoot. Paying 210 points for a tac squad that just sits in a box and shoots its lascannon is madness. A huge waste. It's probably going to be 250 or more but w/e.

If Ailaros is saying that transports need to haul to do their job he's right. At least for marines. It's job is mobility 1st and foremost. Which is why I think the lascannon razorback is a bad idea.... the lascannon distracts from the units main purpose.
AF


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Arsch
since blood angels razorbacks are fast I think the lascannon build makes sense there.... if it's just 5 guys inside a rhino then yeah I guess they are kind of superfulous.... As a general rule I think you want all units killing as much as possible all the time....
AF

AbaddonFidelis wrote:Flavius
90 + 75 = 165 it's true but who runs tac squads without upgrades?

Um, I do. A combi-weapon on the sergeant, maybe meltabombs, and that's all you need. Combat tactics and the firepower of your razorbacks, dreads, predators & speeders takes care of any unfortunate assault situations.

You have to buy troops, and if your army is fully-mech vanilla marines and you want your troops to have some kind of heavy weapon, then your two choices are 10 guys in a rhino or 5 guys in a razorback (or scouts, hahahaha). Since you agree that 10 guys in a rhino with a ton of upgrades is a waste, what other alternative besides razorbacks are you suggesting?

AbaddonFidelis wrote:Flavius
90 + 75 = 165 it's true but who runs tac squads without upgrades?

Apparently people who win with them...

AbaddonFidelis wrote:the lascannon distracts from the units main purpose.

I think this is the crux of the disagreement. You are making an assumption about what the razorbacks purpose is and also what it should be. I think it depends greatly on the rest of the list and what the player wants. If I am taking troops that I want to close with and destroy the enemy then I will take rhinos and fill them with big squads. If I want troops to hold objectives in my backfield, snipe targets of opportunity, and provide some late game objective grabbing capability, then I'm taking small squads and putting them in razorbacks with basic heavy bolters.

AbaddonFidelis wrote:Flavius
90 + 75 = 165 it's true but who runs tac squads without upgrades?

Dude you really need to stop talking, every time you start something completely nonsensical comes out.

90+75 is the cost of a 5-man tac squad and a Razorback.

You can't take heavy weapons or special weapons in a 5-man squad.

This is cheaper than taking a 10-man squad with a lascannon, and much more mobile.

Alternately, take a ten-man Tac squad and combat squad them. Put 4 with boltguns and the Sarge in the Razorback to get them into assault, let the rest sit back and take advantage of the range on their heavy weapon.

Really good point, Arschbombe.

Consider this list, AF, as an extreme example that illustrates the point.

The purpose of a razorback in an army with 11 razorbacks (and only 55 marines with essentially no upgrades) is not to rush forward and drop off a bunch of marines with boltguns. The purpose of a razorback in a list like this is to jockey around for objectives/firing positions and blow the crap out of the enemy--while incidentally carrying a scoring unit along. (The sternguard units are an exception, but they might as well be rhinos.)

I agree that one or two razorbacks isn't going to do much more than one or two rhinos. When you start to get up into the three or four razorback range is when you start to see significant redundant firepower and mobility without any upgrades on the troops inside.

I see lots of new players excited about razor backs. I field an all rhino list. If you are shooting the heavy bolter you can only move 6 inches, and all it is one twin linked heavy bolter. Even a rhino with standard marine can drive up and shoot its storm bolter and two fire points. At its worst its 6 str 4 shots. Put a flamer in your squad and combi flamer on your sergent and you can rush up 12 and cause some serious damage to orks or nids. You can also drive right up to an enemy tank like your razor back and shoot your melta from the safety of your rhino. If you have the points use a lib with avenger, now you have a rhino that shoots a str 5 ap 3 flame template. The only application i can see my self taking them for is the twin linked lascannon (if i didnt have the points for a better tank killer)

saint hazard
do you know what combat squads are?
if so do you know what they do?

Arsch
yes.... we have different assumptions....

Flavius
if someone is making a list to spam razorbacks that's a different beast. I couldn't really comment on it.... but yes 2 or 3 sitting back just doesn't get the job done.

AbaddonFidelis wrote:saint hazard
do you know what combat squads are?
if so do you know what they do?

What kind of ridiculous question is this? I just illustrated what they do in the form of a short narrative. What the hell are you smoking?

kaidsin wrote:If you are shooting the heavy bolter you can only move 6 inches, and all it is one twin linked heavy bolter. Even a rhino with standard marine can drive up and shoot its storm bolter and two fire points.

Passengers can't fire if their transport moves more than 6".

saint hazard
when you tell me that a group of 5 marines inside a razorback can't carry special weapons or heavy weapons, it prompts questions like: do you know what combat squads are?

If you do, then your earlier comment makes no sense.
If you don't, then why are you posting on a space marine thread?
AF

Wow.

Just... just wow.

You were referring to the 165 point combination.

That's five blank Marines and a Razorback with Lascannon/TL Plasma or TL Lascannon.

You can't put heavy weapons on that. It can't be done.

If you want a ten-man squad, with combat squads, one of whom rides in a Razorback, see my earlier goddamn comment where I said exactly that, you thick twit.

no....hazard....wrong again.
I said that it was a 200+ point squad
FLAVIUS said it was a 165 point squad.
YOU got the idea that I was talking about a 165 point squad by commenting on MY response to FLAVIUS.

AF


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in fact never mind. you're a waste of my time. ignore.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Flavius
I missed your earlier post. Sorry about that.
If you run a 5 man squad in a razorback with no upgrades then I guess it's not quite as bad.... I just don't like to park a squad for the purpose of shooting 1 lascannon, because a lascannon's chance of killing even the lightest targets, in cover, is so small. 165 just seems like alot to pay for a squad that claims an objective and shoots a lascannon.... ymmv.
AF

I've privately warned two people on this thread. Further posts violating Dakka Rule #1 will lead to suspensions. Lets get it back on track people.

@Arschbombe

Passengers can't fire if their transport moves more than 6".

I am aware of that, you can start in the transport and move your 12 until you get close enough. Your librarian inside is moving at his normal 6 when he is atking from a rhino yes, but in this case you can use avenger multiple times without as much risk of being caught in combat. Also a decent extra layer of protection for only 35points. Plus the bonus of smoke if you are going to be in the open on the way there is a pretty handy bonus.

It all depends on what you wanna do. if i did it, id have a combat squad and razorback, and park it behind an objective and use the squad to capture it, having the razorback with TL bolters... use it for covering fire and quick suppost

If you're running regular SM, it depends on the unit and how you plan to use it. You mentioned you play Black Templars, so I'm not that familiar with them, but if they are anything like SM in that they can Combat Squad, I can share my insight then.

If it's for a Tactical Squad, I would use Razorbacks because of the Combat Squad ability. I put the Heavy Weapon in the back, and the Sgt and Special Weapon push forward in the Razorback. This way, I potentially get to shoot all of my guns, and make sure of all of my resources. Plus, Razorbacks come stock with a TL Heavy Bolter, for only 5 more points than a Rhino. The only thing you're losing is the ability to Self Repair.

If I'm running units that benefit more from not Combat Squading (ie - Sternguard Vets, Devastator Squad) then I'd use a Rhino.

Hope that helps, and good luck!

@Rurouni Benshin

I would agree with that for. I guess i dont like razor backs because i would rather get all 10 of my guys in rapid fire range and i am not too concerned about using the heavy weapons. I feel i may not even get a chance to use it if i am playing aggressively. I would rather anti tank with a melta or a power fist. I used to be alright with shooty style marines my first year or two with marines.

I'm going with RB's in future, a Rhino cannot really contribute to the shooting phase other than (maybe firing a HK Missile or SB). A Razorback with TL Las can be a serious threat to other Armour on the table, it will however be a bullet magnet. Field 3 of these as AF has advised me on other threads and you can saturate the Enemy and neutralise them. KILL THE LAND RAIDER...uh I digress....
RB's big drawback? Small transport capability, good for CMD Squads and Sternguard though

Sanctjud wrote:

AbaddonFidelis wrote:Flavius
90 + 75 = 165 it's true but who runs tac squads without upgrades?

Apparently people who win with them...

This

put assault marines without jump packs inside them... flame thrower or melta for the special, power weapon for the sergeant.
AF

Razorback:

whatcha get?
Less troop capacity [not important]
Heavy weapon [for all of five points]
not much else.

Same armour, so same survivability.
Same combat ability - can shoot all it's weapon at the same speeds.

The razorback is, in every way, better then a razorback. unless you like wasting 110 points on not using a troops attacks

I'm not really sure why some people are dead set against marines being in 5 man no upgrade squads. I don't even bother taking ten man tacs anymore. The combination of heavy weapons and special weapon is terrible in tac squads. If I keep them together I'm wasting at least one models potential, possibly more (if you are out of range of bolters or shooting at armor which bolters can't hurt). If I combat squad them, it means one squad is out in the open (drawing anti infantry fire that I hoped to make useless by bring a mech list, and increases kill points in missions where that matters). If I take a LC/TLplasma razor back, not only do I get a special weapon and a heavy weapon, it's the most expensive 2 if I had taken a full squad and given them that. Sure I can only fire 1 of them If I move, but having both means you can put out a fair amount of heavy infantry and armor busting power when you get to midfield. Its also brings back the popular 5 man las plas squad. Its cheap enough that you can bring 4-6 of them, and still have enough points for support.

As for wasting the "potential" of the guys inside: Ideally I never get them out and never fire the bolter they have. The biggest asset the SM have it their survivability. Really. You pay 90 points for 5 of them for their T4 and 3+ save. Not their S4 AP who cares rapid crap weapons. Will bolter fire down things? Sure, bring enough of it, models die. Same can be said of lasguns. But a 5 or even 10 man squad is rather ineffective for its points if its entire purpose is to deliver bolter shots. I buy them since I have to, they are durable scoring units, and they unlock useful things like transports with 2 powerful weapons (or a TL one). The only time I hope to get out of my razor is if its destroyed, I'm far away from the main force and a 5+ squad is out in the open in RF range, or I'm low on forces and need to contest with the razor and score with the unit.