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May a painboy take 'ard armor?

Some players disagree, on the grounds that he is a Painboy, not a Nob... but IMO yes, they can.

- The codex allows 'any Nob' to take 'eavy Armour,
- One Nob may be a Painboy.

It doesn't say that he is replaced with a Painboy, or that he is upgraded to a Painboy... just that he may be one, which, to me, doesn't preclude him still also being a Nob. He is a Painboy, but he is also a Nob, by simple virtue of being a member of a Nobs Mob.

No, he cannot.

He is not a Nob, he is a Painboy, so cannot take 'evy Armour. The same way that an Apothecary is not a Veteran.

insaniak wrote:He is a Painboy, but he is also a Nob, by simple virtue of being a member of a Nobs Mob.

This is not true. He is a member of a Nobz Unit, but is not a Nob, the same way as an Aspiring Champion in a CSM Squad is no longer a CSM so cannot take a Special or Heavy that a "Chaos Space Marine" can take.

If only it said he was upgraded to a painboy.

BrockRitcey wrote:If only it said he was upgraded to a painboy.

Even if it did, he would no longer be a Nob, he would be a Painboy, as per his profile.

And as per the ork faq it would be legal. You can apply the options and upgrades in any order you want and so could give a nob heavy armour and then make him a painboy. Works the same as giving the nob in you boy squad the big shoota and pk.

BrockRitcey wrote:And as per the ork faq it would be legal. You can apply the options and upgrades in any order you want and so could give a nob heavy armour and then make him a painboy. Works the same as giving the nob in you boy squad the big shoota and pk.

In the ork boyz entry it actually says that one ork (and nob is an ork) may replace its slugga/shoota to a big shoota.

BrockRitcey wrote:And as per the ork faq it would be legal. You can apply the options and upgrades in any order you want and so could give a nob heavy armour and then make him a painboy. Works the same as giving the nob in you boy squad the big shoota and pk.

Considering that it doesn't apply to the nobz squad, only the boyz squad, as well as the fact that the Rules are clear, you are incorrect.

This is like saying a doom of malantai isnt a zoanthrope, swarmlord isnt a hive tyrant etc .... /rollseyes

kill dem stunties wrote:This is like saying a doom of malantai isnt a zoanthrope, swarmlord isnt a hive tyrant etc .... /rollseyes

No, it's not like that at all.

A Nob is not a Painboy and a Painboy is not a Nob.
A Apothecary is not a Veteran and a Veteran is not an Apothecary.
A Aspiring Champion is not a Chaos Space Marine and a Chaos Space Marine is not an Aspiring Champion.

Each have their own options and rules. You wouldn't claim that a Mek in a Burna Squad can get a KFF because a Big Mek can, would you?

I have the same opinion as Gwar on this, the Ork FAQ does not say that the Nob in a Boys squad can take Boy upgrades and then get promoted. What it says is that after he is promoted and made a Nob, he can take any Nob upgrade. If he no longer has the wargear left for a unit upgrade then he is not affected by the unit's upgrade. Heavy weapons for that one squad are different since is says Orks and not Boyz.

Homer

I think the Apothecary to veterans is the best comparison here.

Is a Painboy also a Flash Git is he is also a Nob?

Flash gitz have 'may be a painboy' as well. And his statline says 6+ save even though Gitz come with default 4+. And Since Flash Gitz ddo not have access to Nob armory, there is now ay to get him 'eavy armor'.

I don't think a Painboy is a NOB or Flash git anymore than a Slaver is a grot.

So, rules as written, the painboy goes in naked. Fluff-wise, that also makes sense. What I don't want is for my lists to be declared illegal at a tournament.

Personally, I think that the painboy should be HQ.

thunderingjove wrote:
Personally, I think that the painboy should be HQ.

They're already subjugated to an expensive but squishy Nob unit, or the worst unit in the Ork Codex [Gitz], though.

If Gitz were amazing, I'd agree.

If you want a "Painboy" HQ, there's always Mad Dok

Who, I believe, is not a Painboy, therefore cannot use the Dok's Tools.

I dont have the codex handy, but what does it say for taking bikes?

Is it A:

Any Nob may take a bike ------- XX Points

Or is it B:

Any Nob or Painboy may take a bike ------- XX Points



Same for Mega Armor. I have seen people use painboys in bike nob squads and mega armor squads.

Mad Dok has his own Dok's Tools listed under his entry.

Magnalon wrote:Mad Dok has his own Dok's Tools listed under his entry.

But under their entry (in the Painboy entry) it states that the Painboy uses them.

Not Mad Dok Grotsnik.

Since Mad Dok Grotsnik is not a Painboy, Mad Dok Grotsnik cannot use the Dok's Tools.

You'd really tell someone that in a game?

Magnalon wrote:You'd really tell someone that in a game?

Er, no?

SaintHazard wrote:Who, I believe, is not a Painboy, therefore cannot use the Dok's Tools.

Then why say it like a declarative statement?

If you aren't putting the disclaimer "yet it's obviously not intended that way", new users are going to look at that, and play like that.

Magnalon wrote:

SaintHazard wrote:Who, I believe, is not a Painboy, therefore cannot use the Dok's Tools.

Then why say it like a declarative statement?

Because this is not a game? This is a place to discuss rules.

Magnalon wrote:Then why say it like a declarative statement?

What he said:

kirsanth wrote:Because this is not a game? This is a place to discuss rules.

I never once specified that this is how I play the game. Just that this is what the rules say.

Magnalon wrote:If you aren't putting the disclaimer "yet it's obviously not intended that way", new users are going to look at that, and play like that.

I need to put a disclaimer that says, "This is what the rules say, but this is not how I play it" in front of every single one of my posts? No thank you, I'll just assume everyone here realizes that moronic rules are moronic, and that nobody plays it that way.

SaintHazard wrote:I'll just assume everyone here realizes that moronic rules are moronic, and that nobody plays it that way.

I guess the difference is I don't assume that, especially for new players, who venerate rule lawyers.

It's just confusing to state broken RAW without a disclaimer of any sort, because new players will see it, not understand it, and actually play that way.

I state broken RAW a dozen times a day, if not more. I'm not going to attach a disclaimer to every single one of my posts.

And those new players will do what anyone who plays strict RAW does. They'll go to their FLGS, try to tell a Space Marine player that he can't fire flamers from his Rhino's firing point, and get smacked down by the veterans. They'll laugh at him, he'll re-examine his priorities, and he'll start playing by that FLGS's house rules. Then over the course of the next six months or so, he'll learn more about the rules, go on an internet message board, state broken RAW, inspire another new player to go to their FLGS and try to tell a Space Marine player that he can't fire flamers from his Rhino's firing point, and the cycle begins anew.

Magnalon wrote:It's just confusing to state broken RAW without a disclaimer of any sort, because new players will see it, not understand it, and actually play that way.

GW does this all the time.

kirsanth wrote:

Magnalon wrote:

SaintHazard wrote:Who, I believe, is not a Painboy, therefore cannot use the Dok's Tools.

Then why say it like a declarative statement?

Because this is not a game? This is a place to discuss rules.

Sure... but it's a place to do so in a way that resolves the issues, rather than creating more.

The RAW fun thread is the place for silly RAW. Otherwise, if you're going to point out rules that clearly are supposed to work but don't, adding some sort of disclaimer to the post to the effect that you don't expect anyone to actually play that way helps avoid misunderstandings.

insaniak wrote:

kirsanth wrote:

Magnalon wrote:

SaintHazard wrote:Who, I believe, is not a Painboy, therefore cannot use the Dok's Tools.

Then why say it like a declarative statement?

Because this is not a game? This is a place to discuss rules.

Sure... but it's a place to do so in a way that resolves the issues, rather than creating more.

The RAW fun thread is the place for silly RAW. Otherwise, if you're going to point out rules that clearly are supposed to work but don't, adding some sort of disclaimer to the post to the effect that you don't expect anyone to actually play that way helps avoid misunderstandings.

I had read the first response--yours--as covering most of that.

insaniak wrote:Some players disagree, on the grounds that he is a Painboy, not a Nob... but IMO yes, they can.

- The codex allows 'any Nob' to take 'eavy Armour,
- One Nob may be a Painboy.

It doesn't say that he is replaced with a Painboy, or that he is upgraded to a Painboy... just that he may be one, which, to me, doesn't preclude him still also being a Nob. He is a Painboy, but he is also a Nob, by simple virtue of being a member of a Nobs Mob.

I must have read too much into it.

/shrug

And for the guy who asked, bikes say "the whole unit", not "every Nob".

Yes, that argument has come and gone, and it isn't a real argument.