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Brother Ramses wrote:Except the crux of the argument is determining if a Nob is a Painboy and if a Painboy is a Nob.

Which is answered by the codex entry, which says that the Nob can be a Painboy...

The rules for determining if models are identical are not relevant, because you're not comparing him to another model. You're trying to determine if the model that is a Painboy is also still considered to be a Nob.

The codex entry says the Nob can be a Painboy... so if you select that option, the Nob is a Painboy. It doesn't say that the model that is a Painboy is no longer a Nob, or that one Nob can be replaced by a Painboy. Just that one Nob can be a Painboy. So if you select that option, the Nob is a Painboy. So he's a Nob (we know this is true, because it says that he is) and he's a Painboy (we know that's also true, because the entry says that he can be if you select that option).


Whether or not that's what was actually intended is anybody's guess. When GW choose to use different wording for similar optional bits, it tends to leave people unsure as to whether the difference is deliberate or just sloppy writing practices. But at the end of the day, the option to make the Nob a Painboy is worded differently to other 'character upgrade' options, and it's that difference that makes it function differently.

Dracos wrote:There is nothing stating that the painboy loses other equipment you purchase for the Nob before you make him a Painboy, so he doesn't.

This. This right here is the crux of the argument, not whether a Nob is or isn't a Painboy. Why is everyone jumping around this. This is the question we really should be asking, not whether the Nob in question has physically evolved or something.

And the answer for this question is quite simple. There is absolutely nothing that states he loses any wargear except for his weaponry, so therefore he should be allowed to keep it. End of discussion.

Juvieus Kaine wrote:

Dracos wrote:There is nothing stating that the painboy loses other equipment you purchase for the Nob before you make him a Painboy, so he doesn't.

This. This right here is the crux of the argument, not whether a Nob is or isn't a Painboy. Why is everyone jumping around this. This is the question we really should be asking, not whether the Nob in question has physically evolved or something.

And the answer for this question is quite simple. There is absolutely nothing that states he loses any wargear except for his weaponry, so therefore he should be allowed to keep it. End of discussion.

QFT.

While I think the Painboy = Nob issue is an interesting one, it really is secondary to this. Barring any direction on "proper" order of operations for purchasing unit upgrades, a Painboy with armor is perfectly valid.

Since obviously people can't read a codex:

Nob vs Painboy

Different names
Different profiles
Different wargear

Conclusion: NOT THE SAME!

Nob in 'Eavy armor vs Nob

Different profiles
Different wargear

Conclusion: NOT THE SAME!

Now the first claim that a Nob is a Painboy and a Painboy is a Nob is CLEARLY shown to be false. I have shown what makes them not the same. Please feel free to show me how they are the same.

For the second claim; A Nob may be a Painboy. Clearly, I have shown that a Nob in 'Eavy Armor is not the same as a Nob. Please feel free to show me how they are the same.

These are facts. Not my opinion, not conjecture, but straight up facts pulled from the codex in question.

No actually they aren't all facts. For starters you're still implying that when a Nob takes an upgrade he is no longer a Nob. Okay then, find me the statline of this new unit of which you speak.
Secondly you're dodging the whole point of this argument and have not recognised it.
Thirdly if a Painboy was that different, why is he not classified as an "upgrade" or worded as such?

Juvieus Kaine wrote:No actually they aren't all facts. For starters you're still implying that when a Nob takes an upgrade he is no longer a Nob. Okay then, find me the statline of this new unit of which you speak.

Page 98, Codex: Orks.

The profiles are identical save one thing, the name. Gee, it's almost like they are different somehow!

Juvieus Kaine wrote:Secondly you're dodging the whole point of this argument and have not recognised it.

Mainly because it isn't a valid argument.

Juvieus Kaine wrote:Thirdly if a Painboy was that different, why is he not classified as an "upgrade" or worded as such?

Because... erm? That doesn't make sense. If I have a stick, and upgrade it with a pointy bit of metal on the end, it's not a stick anymore, it's a spear. Likewise, if I am given a choice "Hey, you are an Apple, buy you may be an Orange for +x Points", if I become an Orange, I am no longer an Apple. I may still be a fruit, but I am no longer a specific Kind of Fruit.

The codex doesn't say the Painboy can take Nob wargear, so it can't, the same way an Apothecary cannot take Veteran wargear or a Aspiring Champion take CSM wargear.

I know what the darn dex says. I have the thing and have been using it for a while. And I know full well a Nob, once (and only when) he becomes a Painboy, is not allowed from that point onwards to select Nob wargear. That bit is fine.

What you're doing is now trying to apply that beforehand. By some magic poweres of your reading or something you've suddenly decided that when a Nob becomes a Painboy he magically gets stripped down and given new tools and left to it. Since when at any point did it say that he loses everything he owns just to become a Painboy?
There is no such wording or entry whatsoever. If you can actualyl find me the words that say "The Painboy loses all upgrades he has and replaces his weapons with X" then I will concede. Otherwise, your own argument is flawed and invalid to the actual point of this whole darn thread.

Juvieus Kaine wrote:I know what the darn dex says. I have the thing and have been using it for a while. And I know full well a Nob, once (and only when) he becomes a Painboy, is not allowed from that point onwards to select Nob wargear. That bit is fine.

What you're doing is now trying to apply that beforehand. By some magic poweres of your reading or something you've suddenly decided that when a Nob becomes a Painboy he magically gets stripped down and given new tools and left to it. Since when at any point did it say that he loses everything he owns just to become a Painboy?
There is no such wording or entry whatsoever. If you can actualyl find me the words that say "The Painboy loses all upgrades he has and replaces his weapons with X" then I will concede. Otherwise, your own argument is flawed and invalid to the actual point of this whole darn thread.

No, what I am saying is that you are somehow saying that he can take Wargear before becoming a painboy, which the codex does not say he can do. "It doesn't say I can't" is not an argument.

You need to calm down and stop being so rude.

We have the poll up, and it is winning by 3 points in favor of Painboys being their own, seperate thing.

Even then, we have some people saying that while they technically don't think it's legal, they let their Ork friends do it, and therefore allow it.

To me it seems like it's a pretty simple loophole that hasn't been FAQed yet, but I can see why people think otherwise.

Why the Painboy would be the only special case in the entire codex is beyond me, but at the current moment, we just have to house rule it. Simple solution.

Juvieus Kaine wrote: Since when at any point did it say that he loses everything he owns just to become a Painboy?

Since it says "Painboy replaces slugga and choppa with Dok's Tools and 'Urty Syringe" right there on the left hand side of the top left corner of the Nob army list entry. That right there ruins your argument in regards to weapons. I'm confused as to why you didn't read the codex close enough and lashed out at Gwar! like that.

The issue here is ARMOR and other such upgrades. It is clear that he loses his weapons. It is not clear that he loses the other upgrades, which is what the entire thread is about.

House rule it.

Meh fine. If I'm being called rude for stating something few people are grasping, so be it.
@Magnalon: I suppose House Ruling it is the best for this kind of issue.

I don't care if you're rude, but you aren't stating something that few people are grasping.

You said

Juvieus Kaine wrote: If you can actualyl find me the words that say "The Painboy loses all upgrades he has and replaces his weapons with X" then I will concede.

I said

Magnalon wrote: "[the codex states] Painboy replaces slugga and choppa with Dok's Tools and 'Urty Syringe"

Again, that's in regards to weapons, but you didn't make a distinction above.

To add on to my point, all of your weapons must be exchanged when you upgrade into a Painboy for Dok's Tools and an 'Urty Syringe.

People are suggesting that they sleaze the system by upgrading *before* the Painboy becomes a Painboy, and therefore he has the upgrades.

GW makes it clear that you cannot give a Nob a Powerklaw, and simply upgrade him - you lose the Powerklaw for an 'Urty Syringe. Yet you can take other things from the exact same wargear section *before* the upgrade? Enh. I'm not convinced.

Again, I think it's an oversight that has a clear house rule: they can't take upgrades.

Juvieus Kaine wrote:I know what the darn dex says. I have the thing and have been using it for a while. And I know full well a Nob, once (and only when) he becomes a Painboy, is not allowed from that point onwards to select Nob wargear. That bit is fine.

What you're doing is now trying to apply that beforehand. By some magic poweres of your reading or something you've suddenly decided that when a Nob becomes a Painboy he magically gets stripped down and given new tools and left to it. Since when at any point did it say that he loses everything he owns just to become a Painboy?
There is no such wording or entry whatsoever. If you can actualyl find me the words that say "The Painboy loses all upgrades he has and replaces his weapons with X" then I will concede. Otherwise, your own argument is flawed and invalid to the actual point of this whole darn thread.

Because the same principle applies:

A Nob is an ork unit that costs X amount of points and has a 6+ save
A Nob in 'Eavy armor is an ork unit that cost Y amount of points and has a 4+ save.

See the difference?

ONLY ONE OF THESE IS ELIGIBLE TO BE UPGRADED TO A PAINBOY!

Can you read the codex and quote the line about making a XXX a Painboy?

Juvieus Kaine wrote:Meh fine. If I'm being called rude for stating something few people are grasping, so be it.
@Magnalon: I suppose House Ruling it is the best for this kind of issue.

There is a habit to suggest that because someone disagrees with an argument, they must not understand it. I understand your argument, but I think Gwars! reading of the rules is correct based strictly on the codex. Regardless, I would have no problem if a Painboy took armour.

Okay it seems I'm wrong, so I am done here. I tried finding the proper answer but seems its wrong anyway. Perosnally I'd allow it but seems not many other would (disregarding the Poll).
No more from me on this one.

Brother Ramses wrote:Since obviously people can't read a codex:

Unnecessary rudeness is unnecessary. I would recommend not doing it again.

Conclusion: NOT THE SAME!

The argument isn't that they are the same. The argument is that being a Painboy doesn't mean he isn't also a Nob, in the same way that, say, a Police Sergeant is still a Police Officer... just a specific type. Or, in other words, the assumption being made is that a Painboy is a special type of Nob, rather than a replacement for a Nob. Yes, he has a different profile... because he's a special kind of Nob.

Now the first claim that a Nob is a Painboy and a Painboy is a Nob is CLEARLY shown to be false. I have shown what makes them not the same. Please feel free to show me how they are the same.

It's been pointed out several times now: The codex says "One Nob may be a Painboy" rather than "One Nob is replaced with a Painboy"

Clearly, I have shown that a Nob in 'Eavy Armor is not the same as a Nob. Please feel free to show me how they are the same.

And it was also already shown why that argument is incorrect, and would prevent a Nob from taking 'eavy armour and any other options.

These are facts. Not my opinion, not conjecture, but straight up facts pulled from the codex in question.

No, sorry, they're not.

"One Nob may be a Painboy" is a fact pulled straight from the codex in question. The moment you start explaining what you think it means, you're presenting an opinion, not a fact. However correct you personally think that your interpretation may be, it's still just your opinion, just as any differing interpretations are only 'correct' in the opinions of those making them.

For those who seem to be getting a little worked up here, I would remind you that there is no 'winner' in a rules discussion. You don't need to prove the other side wrong. The point of these discussions is to discuss how the rules work. If you have an interpretation that differs from someone else's, and the two of you don't agree that either of those interpretations is more correct than the other, then that's not the end of the world. If it's getting to the point where you're getting frustrated enough to get rude about the whole thing, it's time to let the discussion go and move on. It's not the end of the world if someone, somewhere, is playing it differently to you.

If Painboy = Nob, what does that say about Flash Gitz?

That is the part that actually confuses me. I know everyone says they are refering to the ones in the Nob listing, but either way it seems off somehow.

Agreed, kirsanth.

Painboys have their own special section in the front of the codex, with their own portrait/fluff/wargear.

Then the codex goes on to say you exchange your Nob's slugga and choppa for Dok's Tools and 'Urty Syringe. Coincidentally the exact wargear listed in the front-end section.

The Flash Gitz profile is the same as the front-end section - 6+ save, etc - and you exchange for the exact same wargear.

So are there two Painboys? A Flash Gitz Painboy who can't take upgrades, and a Nob Painboy?

kirsanth wrote:If Painboy = Nob, what does that say about Flash Gitz?

What about them?

As far as I can see, the whole mess actually causes fewer problems for Flash Gits, since the upgrades are available to 'the unit' instead of to anybody specific. So whether or not you take 'One Flash Git may be a Painboy' to mean that the Painboyz is still a FlashGit, he can take the available upgrades.

insaniak wrote:As far as I can see, the whole mess actually causes fewer problems for Flash Gits, since the upgrades are available to 'the unit' instead of to anybody specific.

That is actually the part that gets me.

I figure I just missed something.

insaniak wrote:the Painboyz is still a FlashGit, he can take the available upgrades.

But he can't.

The codex states "Painboy replaces 'eavy armor, snazzgun, and gitlinda with Dok's tools and 'urty syringe".

You can also see that the listing for Painboys under the Flash Gitz table have their own special upgrade section, that only features the one thing available from the front-end portrait entry - grot orderlies.

To me this clearly shows precedent that Painboys can ONLY take the upgrades available in his paltry section.

To drive this home even further, you say "the unit" can take these upgrades - say "ammo runts" for example. How can the Painboy take this? He does not have a gun. There is no option to "buy a Snazzgun" in the Flash Gitz section. "More dakka" says that it upgrades the snazzgun. Again, Painboys cannot take this because they are not Flash Gitz, and do not have a Snazzgun - it is replaced, and cannot be purchased.

It's the exact same way for Nobs. Nobs do not have the 4+ armor save. They have a 6+. When you take the Painboy for the Nobz Mob, you get the 6+ save. More specifically, you get the Painboy's 6+ save, that is unique to him, because you are becoming the only possible model for a Painboy.

When you take them for the Flash Gitz, you get downgraded to the 6+ save - the same 6+ save that is unique to a Painboy. Why? Because they are their own thing.

In my opinion, Games Workshop did not intend for there to be a "Flash Gitz Painboy" and a "Nob Painboy".

It was a dumb oversight of Games Workshop to not list the Painboy as his own, possibly an Elite or HQ entry, because it causes notions that it can take upgrades, when all it can take are grot orderlies.

Magnalon wrote:

insaniak wrote:the Painboyz is still a FlashGit, he can take the available upgrades.

But he can't.

The codex states "Painboy replaces 'eavy armor, snazzgun, and gitlinda with Dok's tools and 'urty syringe".

Right... so he doesn't have a gun. He can still take the upgrades, because they're available to 'the unit'... In fact, going by the usual interpretation of that wording, if any of the unit takes those upgrades, they all must ('The unit may...' rather than 'any model may...') which means that the Painboy also has to take them, even if they don't do anything for him.

I edited this part in above

Magnalon wrote:To drive this home even further, you say "the unit" can take these upgrades - say "ammo runts" for example. How can the Painboy take this? He does not have a gun. There is no option to "buy a Snazzgun" in the Flash Gitz section. "More dakka" says that it upgrades the snazzgun. Again, Painboys cannot take this because they are not Flash Gitz, and do not have a Snazzgun - it is replaced, and cannot be purchased.
.

The "unit" upgrades you're talking about are 5 points *per* model - not for the entire unit.

The upgrades are

more dakka
shootier
blastas
ammo runts

The Painboy cannot utilize ANY of these because he does not have a gun.

You don't think the intention here is clear? Why would GW intend on writing the codex so that Painboys can take 20 points of upgrades they could never use? Why would you ever do that?

Edit: Oooooooooh! You think the entire model HAS to take each upgrade! Where does it say that each model *has* to take it? You can upgrade each Git individually and cherry pick those upgrades, man!

insaniak wrote:

Brother Ramses wrote:Since obviously people can't read a codex:

Unnecessary rudeness is unnecessary. I would recommend not doing it again.

Conclusion: NOT THE SAME!

The argument isn't that they are the same. The argument is that being a Painboy doesn't mean he isn't also a Nob, in the same way that, say, a Police Sergeant is still a Police Officer... just a specific type. Or, in other words, the assumption being made is that a Painboy is a special type of Nob, rather than a replacement for a Nob. Yes, he has a different profile... because he's a special kind of Nob.

Now the first claim that a Nob is a Painboy and a Painboy is a Nob is CLEARLY shown to be false. I have shown what makes them not the same. Please feel free to show me how they are the same.

It's been pointed out several times now: The codex says "One Nob may be a Painboy" rather than "One Nob is replaced with a Painboy"

Clearly, I have shown that a Nob in 'Eavy Armor is not the same as a Nob. Please feel free to show me how they are the same.

And it was also already shown why that argument is incorrect, and would prevent a Nob from taking 'eavy armour and any other options.

These are facts. Not my opinion, not conjecture, but straight up facts pulled from the codex in question.

No, sorry, they're not.

"One Nob may be a Painboy" is a fact pulled straight from the codex in question. The moment you start explaining what you think it means, you're presenting an opinion, not a fact. However correct you personally think that your interpretation may be, it's still just your opinion, just as any differing interpretations are only 'correct' in the opinions of those making them.

For those who seem to be getting a little worked up here, I would remind you that there is no 'winner' in a rules discussion. You don't need to prove the other side wrong. The point of these discussions is to discuss how the rules work. If you have an interpretation that differs from someone else's, and the two of you don't agree that either of those interpretations is more correct than the other, then that's not the end of the world. If it's getting to the point where you're getting frustrated enough to get rude about the whole thing, it's time to let the discussion go and move on. It's not the end of the world if someone, somewhere, is playing it differently to you.

A Police Sergeant is still a Police Officer, but I can guarantee you that he doesn't have the same duties, same assets available to him, nor the same pay. And that is the WHOLE point of why a Nob is not a Painboy and a Painboy is not a Nob. You are trying to force real world logic into a game mechanic. The 40k game mechanics considers a Nob to be a Nob and a Painboy to be a Painboy. That is bonafide RAW without argument. A Space Marine Sergeant is sure as hell is a Space Marine, but in 40k world mechanics he is not. That is ALL the rules care about, not that logically all orks are the same because they are all spores.

And that is a fact, per the established game mechanics of Warhammer 40k. It is not my opinion, it is not my interpretation. According to the BRB for determining identical models, a Nob is not a Painboy and a Painboy is not a Nob.

As I mentioned it is not the 5th edition rules preventing a Nob with 'Eavy Armor taking a powerclaw it is the age of the Ork codex in regard to the rules that 5th edition has set forth for determining like and unlike models. You act as if a change in the core ruleset has never broken a codex before. Tau and target priority ring a bell? WAAGH and running/fleet?

Per RAW, a Nob in 'Eavy Armor cannot take a powerclaw. I wouldn't play it that way due to my accepting that the codex is not inline with the current core ruleset. However, with the RAW dictating that a Nob is not a Painboy and a Painboy is not a Nob, with the Painboy's exchange of gear, and new profile, I will stand by that a Nob in 'Eavy Armor is not allowed to become a Painboy because he is not a Nob.

Magnalon wrote:Edit: Oooooooooh! You think the entire model HAS to take each upgrade! Where does it say that each model *has* to take it? You can upgrade each Git individually and cherry pick those upgrades, man!

It says that every model has to take the upgrade in the first line. Again: 'The unit may...' rather than 'Any model may...'

Where that wording is used in GW's rules, it refers to taking that option for the entire unit, or for none. You don't have an option to take the upgrade for just some models. That's been the standard for 15 years or so now, and has been the way they have ruled it wherever it has been clarified in the past.


However, the Painboy does actually get a reprieve from the Ork FAQ:
"Q. If a Flash Gitz mob includes a Painboy and/or
Kaptin Badrukk, and it selects any of the
weapon upgrades, does the player have to pay
the +5 points for these characters, even though
they don’t benefit from the upgrade?
A. No, as they are not equipped with snazzguns,
and therefore the upgrade does not make sense
for them."

This is a specific change to the rules. If the entire unit didn't have to take the upgrade to begin with, there would be no need to rule that the Painboy doesn't have to take it.