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It's oooon!

Direct people to this thread.

Let's put it this way, if I lose, I win. I play Orks, and love to run Painboyz. If they can take upgrades and I have the backing of the majority of Dakka, I'll be happy

So I have been following this thread and have known for quite sometime where the answer lies and wanted to see if anyone would touch on it themselves. So onto my two points of this conversation and the RAW support:

1. A Nob is not a Painboy and a Painboy is not a Nob.

It is defined in the BRB on determining identical models. Both name, profile, and wargear are different for a Painnboy and a Nob. While logic seems to dictate they are the same, in the World of Warhammer 40k, they are by definition different.

2. You can't give a Nob 'eavy armor and then make him a Painboy.

In conjunction with the above mentioned rule for determining identical models a Nob in 'eavy armor is not a Nob. The rule for creating a Painboy requires a Nob, not a Nob in 'eavy armor.

So, even if we were to say that a Painboy is a Nob (which he isn't), a Nob in 'eavy armor is different from a Nob and thus not eligible to be a Painboy.

So if you upgrade a nob to have eavy armor, you can't give him any other upgrades?

edit: Also please quote or reference the sections that describe the rules as you describe them.

What's stopping a player from upgrading a nob with eavy armor, and then making him a painboy? Teh fact that the painboy profile says 6+ armor?

Doesn't a lot of this hinge on if a Nob that can "be" a painboy remains a nob?

whoops. realized this is a massive thread. I'm sure my points have been dealt with.

Dracos wrote:So if you upgrade a nob to have eavy armor, you can't give him any other upgrades?

edit: Also please quote or reference the sections that describe the rules as you describe them.

It's undebiable that you couldn't give him, say, a power klaw, as he needs to trade his non-exsistant choppa for it.

You can give your painboy cybork body.

I would argue that the painboy could take heavy armor because the 'dex says "may be a painboy" infering thathe is also a nob. The always, in every other situation, put "may be upgraded to," so I think they meant that he may also be a nob because it has been specially reworded. I also think that there is nothing unfair about giving your painboy heavy armor. If your about gripes over a 4+ save and a 5 pt upgrade, get new opponents.

Having started this thread LAST week, legitamently in doubt as to the answer, and having read every entry posted, I have concluded that I will NEVER put 'ard armor on any foot nob, and instead give theme cybork bodies. Done.

TADA! Problem solved!

Gwar! wrote:TADA! Problem solved!

Also, I think your logic is most convincing because it's most direct.

The Tyranid FAQ Covered Similar wording for is a broodlord a genestealer and is the Doom a zoanthrope with a "Yes they are" on both counts.
Seems to me the wording says that a nob is a painboy. Nob first then painboy.

Doomthumbs wrote:The Tyranid FAQ Covered Similar wording for is a broodlord a genestealer and is the Doom a zoanthrope with a "Yes they are" on both counts.
Seems to me the wording says that a nob is a painboy. Nob first then painboy.

Except that applying the Nid FAQ to the Ork army makes as much sense as applying the DA one to Space Wolves or the Skaven one to Necrons...

I play orks alot and personally i have no problem with my opponent getting hevy' armor or a bike for his painboy.
It makes sense to me fluff wise and I like to play my games as Fluffy as possible. (Obviously without distorting the rules in a seriously crazy way)

Painboy can have Urty Syringe and Dok's Tools, any other Painboy specific upgrades, and anything else that reads as "The entire mob", or "the entire unit".
Hence, you can get a Painboy with a bike and with stikkbombz, but no Nob specific upgrades.

This is my vote.

Gwar! wrote:Except that applying the Nid FAQ to the Ork army makes as much sense as applying the DA one to Space Wolves or the Skaven one to Necrons...

Your repeated assertion of this does not make it any more true. There is a clear difference in that one is using information from an army which uses the same rule system, whereas your parallel does not. This is a fallacious and entirely useless comparison.

edit: Really, just stop mentioning skaven or any other non-40k army. It is disingenuous and entirely a false premise.

Nah, he's right. FAQ's for a codex do not apply to other things. If for the purposes of argument he wants to use a Fantasy codex then sure he can, one could even use the fact that dictionary definitions are not suitable for use in 40k or the saftey manual for my jumppack says 'do not operate at night' so you can't move your guys with them during 'night fighting'.

Taking something out of it's context and applying it to something it was not intended for is a no-no, how extreme of ridiculos we want to make our examples... limited by our imagination.

ChrisCP wrote:Nah, he's right. FAQ's for a codex do not apply to other things. If for the purposes of argument he wants to use a Fantasy codex then sure he can, one could even use the fact that dictionary definitions are not suitable for use in 40k or the saftey manual for my jumppack says 'do not operate at night' so you can't move your guys with them during 'night fighting'.

Taking something out of it's context and applying it to something it was not intended for is a no-no, how extreme of ridiculos we want to make our examples... limited by our imagination.

Using similar situations to create a coherent rules system seems a perfectly valid approach to figuring out how to play this game. For example, the Counter Attack + Furious Charge answer in the SW FAQ was quickly applied to IG with Straken, and I imagine was a contributing factor to how quickly that ruling got changed.

Using an arbitrary example from another game system seems an unhelpful approach to figuring out how to play the game.

---

To the point at hand, absent any direction on "proper" order of operations for applying upgrades, the Painboy can certainly end up with 'eavy armour. His upgrade options specify what wargear he exchanges- anyone forcing you to give up more than your slugga and choppa is "Not Playing By The Rules"

That said, I'm glad OP arrived at the correct tactical choice- 5++ and FNP is much more useful (IMHO) than 'eavy armor.

? I don't understand how your example which was a clarification for the people who couldn't work out "the +1 assault bonus to their attacks, exactly as if they too had assaulted that turn." did not meet the conditions of "In a turn in which they assaulted into combat they add +1 to both their Initiative and Strength characteristics when attacking in close combat" the rules themselves were already adequate for the situation.

Whereas

Doomthumbs wrote:The Tyranid FAQ Covered Similar wording for is a broodlord a genestealer and is the Doom a zoanthrope with a "Yes they are" on both counts.
Seems to me the wording says that a nob is a painboy. Nob first then painboy.

is not the same at all. Is it?

Except that that's not how they initially ruled that. The SW FAW initially said that Counterattack DID trigger FC.

The point I was making was that using other codices rulings in similar/identical situations can be helpful- the tyranid example, in this particular case, not very helpful. The general principle is sound, though.

As opposed to hyperbolic ranting about FAQs from other systems- not ever helpful.

One Nob may be a Painboy.

Is a Nob in 'eavy armor the same as a Nob?

According to the BRB, no they are not. So,

A Nob in 'eavy armor may not be a Painboy because he is not a Nob.

/end thread

Gwar dont forget about the C:sm book and command squads. when you upgrade a vetern to command champion does he have acess to war gear.... then the question is if i give him gear before i up grade him does he still have the gear?

StarGate wrote:Gwar dont forget about the C:sm book and command squads. when you upgrade a vetern to command champion does he have acess to war gear.... then the question is if i give him gear before i up grade him does he still have the gear?

Look at the post above yours.

StarGate wrote:Gwar dont forget about the C:sm book and command squads. when you upgrade a vetern to command champion does he have acess to war gear.... then the question is if i give him gear before i up grade him does he still have the gear?

What I outlined in my post above works exactly the same with SM command squads and the argument about BA Honor Guard Sang Noviate and Blood Champions.

Brother Ramses wrote:One Nob may be a Painboy.

Is a Nob in 'eavy armor the same as a Nob?

According to the BRB, no they are not. So,

A Nob in 'eavy armor may not be a Painboy because he is not a Nob.

/end thread

Only a Nob may purchase a powerklaw, so is it also your assertion that a Nob in 'Eavy armour is also unable to purchase a powerklaw?

Dracos wrote:

Brother Ramses wrote:One Nob may be a Painboy.

Is a Nob in 'eavy armor the same as a Nob?

According to the BRB, no they are not. So,

A Nob in 'eavy armor may not be a Painboy because he is not a Nob.

/end thread

Only a Nob may purchase a powerklaw, so is it also your assertion that a Nob in 'Eavy armour is also unable to purchase a powerklaw?

I agree, that line of logic is flawed.

What isn't flawed is that Painboy ≠ Nob the same way as 7 ≠ 2. Painboyz can't buy Wargear, so they can't buy it. Not that hard.

Gwar! wrote:I agree, that line of logic is flawed.

What isn't flawed is that Painboy ≠ Nob the same way as 7 ≠ 2. Painboyz can't buy Wargear, so they can't buy it. Not that hard.

But that's okay, because there is no restriction on the nob that is upgraded preventing you from upgrading a nob that has already purchased eavy armor.

7 not being equal to 2 is not the same as a Painboy not being equal to a Nob.

One is provable mathematically, whereas the Painboy is simply being a Nob who has some additional rules also making him a painboy. Again, your analogies are completely unhelpful.

Not that hard. See what I did there?

Dracos wrote:So if you upgrade a nob to have eavy armor, you can't give him any other upgrades?

edit: Also please quote or reference the sections that describe the rules as you describe them.

Per the 5th Editon BRB RAW you cannot. Not because my logic is flawed but because a Nob in 'eavy armor is no longer a Nob in terms of upgrades purchasble only by a Nob. This isn't anything more then the Ork codex showing it's age compared to the 5th Edition rules.

You will notice that this conflict is eliminated in the newer codices such as the BA Captain entry. A BA Captain in power armor is not the same as a Captain in TDA and the entry reflects this by giving specific wargear entries allowd to a BA Captain in TDA despite having some of the exact same wargear available when he is in power armor. Per the 5th Edition BRB, you need permission to give him the gear while in TDA despite him logically still being a BA Captain.

The entry relevant to this is under Complex Units on page 25 which details how to determine identical models in game terms.

Can you please quote the sections of the BRB you are referring to?

edit: You seem to be referring to the section on how models are removed from complex units. I don't see anything that would be at all related, so I'm looking for the exact entry that would make a Nob in Eavy armor not a Nob.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Brother Ramses wrote:You will notice that this conflict is eliminated in the newer codices such as the BA Captain entry. A BA Captain in power armor is not the same as a Captain in TDA and the entry reflects this by giving specific wargear entries allowd to a BA Captain in TDA despite having some of the exact same wargear available when he is in power armor. Per the 5th Edition BRB, you need permission to give him the gear while in TDA despite him logically still being a BA Captain.

Except how is this any different? If you buy your Captain a Relic blade, isn't he now (by you line of reasoning) not a Captain but a Captain with a Relic blade, and therefore can't purchase any other options (such as melta bombs, for instance) which are available to a Captain?

In essence your argument is complete incorrect and does not match the way the game works at all. A Captain is still a Captain, regardless of what equipment he has. Same for a Nob etc.

Dracos wrote:Can you please quote the sections of the BRB you are referring to?

edit: You seem to be referring to the section on how models are removed from complex units. I don't see anything that would be at all related, so I'm looking for the exact entry that would make a Nob in Eavy armor not a Nob.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Brother Ramses wrote:You will notice that this conflict is eliminated in the newer codices such as the BA Captain entry. A BA Captain in power armor is not the same as a Captain in TDA and the entry reflects this by giving specific wargear entries allowd to a BA Captain in TDA despite having some of the exact same wargear available when he is in power armor. Per the 5th Edition BRB, you need permission to give him the gear while in TDA despite him logically still being a BA Captain.

Except how is this any different? If you buy your Captain a Relic blade, isn't he now (by you line of reasoning) not a Captain but a Captain with a Relic blade, and therefore can't purchase any other options (such as melta bombs, for instance) which are available to a Captain?

In essence your argument is complete incorrect and does not match the way the game works at all. A Captain is still a Captain, regardless of what equipment he has. Same for a Nob etc.

Except the crux of the argument is determining if a Nob is a Painboy and if a Painboy is a Nob. In the entire BRB there is only one section for determining if models are identical.

And your example is flawed since the entry you are referencing does not specify that a specific Captain is able to take melta bombs. So a captain with a relic blade would have no problem taking melta bombs. However notice that for him to take TDA he has to turn in a specific set of wargear(nothing more, nothing less) to get the TDA.

By your standard that a Nob is a Nob, then how are people legally playing the wound allocation game with hem when they have different wargear? By your standard that a Nob is a Painboy and a Painboy is a Nob, are you going to roll your saves for them as an identical group? How about by your standard I take two Wolf Lords, give one a 2+ Runic Armor save, join them together and roll 2+ saves against all shooting? Afterall by your standard a Wolf Lord is a Wolf Lord regardless of what gear they have.

Because wargear is only taken into consideration when you are allocating wounds...

Dracos wrote:Because wargear is only taken into consideration when you are allocating wounds...

Really? I just showed you an example where a Space Marine Captain has to have a specific set of wargear to exchange for TDA. The Nob has to have a certain wargear set to turn in for the Painboy gear.

It is probably an exercise in futility, but write down the profiles AND wargear for the following:

Nob
Nob in 'eavy armor
Painboy

Now, yes or no, are they the same?

How about this,

Captain on a bike
Captain in TDA
Captain in power armor

Yes or no, are they the same?

Well maybe your example would hold some water if the stated restriction on Painboys was more than "One Nob may be a painboy", and "painboy replaces his slugga and choppa with dok's tools and 'urty syringe". Sure, your codex states that the Captain has to exchange certain wargear to get TDA, but does that make him not a Captain anymore? Of course not. Just because he has a different profile does not make him no longer a Captain.

Having different profiles doesn't mean you can't buy the same equipment. Show me somewhere that the different profile limits what you can buy - you can't because there isn't. There is nothing stating that the painboy loses other equipment you purchase for the Nob before you make him a Painboy, so he doesn't.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

Brother Ramses wrote:The Nob has to have a certain wargear set to turn in for the Painboy gear.

This is misleading - the only wargear the painboy has to have are his slugga and choppa to swap, as I have quoted many times there is no further restriction listed.