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Gwar! wrote:

Dracos wrote:Please show me where in the Ork codex it says that the Nob who is chosen as the one upgraded to the painboy can't have 'eavy armour.

Show me where it says he can.

Please, show me the line that says "A Painboy may have 'evy Armour."

THAT EXACT LINE. If it isn't there, he can't have it, period. A Nob can have it, because the rule say they can, but they do not say a Painboy can, so he cannot.

This is an example of very flawed logic with the rules.

If I were to ask you to show me the exact line that says "An Ork Loota can move 6 inches" can you do it? Does you lack of ability to do it mean that Lootas can't move 6"?

No. The rules work together to get an outcome. Demanding that you have a line with such specifics isn't always possible. Sometimes you have to put multiple rules together to figure out what a unit/model can do.


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Dracos wrote:There is no raw to support your position Gwar. All it says is that

"Any Nob may take any of the following: 'eavy armour 5 points [...]"

and

"One Nob may be a Painboy".

It also says "Painboy replaces slugga and choppa with dok's tools and 'urty syringe".

Therefore you take one nob with the required slugga and choppa, and buy him eavy armour. Then you upgrade that one Nob to a Painboy. This is 100% what the codex tells you that you can do.

Here it is Gwar, only because you asked me to recopy it and can't seem to be bothered to scroll up a few posts.

This is just one of those pot holes in the codex in my opinion. My local club allows Ork players to use 'eavy Armour for the Nob, because...

...it doesn't say you can, or can't, so if anything I'd say you can take 'eavy Armour on a Painboy. Simply because it doesn't say you can't.

Until GW release a FAQ stating otherwise, I say it's legal.

[I'll run the question past the Beasts of War team, and see what they think, as they do their own FAQ on their site and Youtube page.]

Dracos wrote:This is an example of very flawed logic with the rules.

If I were to ask you to show me the exact line that says "An Ork Loota can move 6 inches" can you do it? Does you lack of ability to do it mean that Lootas can't move 6".

No, I can show you where it says All Infantry can move 6".

You cannot show me where it says all Painboyz can have Evy Armour.

Scroll up, I've already explained this to you.

Dracos wrote:Scroll up, I've already explained this to you.

No, you haven't. You have said some stuff that is incorrect, have had it pointed out to you and as usual you are ignoring it.

But lets assume I am blind and cannot find this "explanation", where in the codex does it say you can give Painboyz evy Armour?

In what way is it wrong? Its hard to have a meaningful discussion when you make absurd demands and just state I'm wrong without backing it up.


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Dracos wrote:There is no raw to support your position Gwar. All it says is that

"Any Nob may take any of the following: 'eavy armour 5 points [...]"

and

"One Nob may be a Painboy".

It also says "Painboy replaces slugga and choppa with dok's tools and 'urty syringe".

Therefore you take one nob with the required slugga and choppa, and buy him eavy armour. Then you upgrade that one Nob to a Painboy. This is 100% what the codex tells you that you can do.

Here it is Gwar, only because you asked me to recopy it and can't seem to be bothered to scroll up a few posts.

Dracos wrote:In what way is it wrong? Its hard to have a meaningful discussion when you make absurd demands and just state I'm wrong without backing it up.

Ok, here is me backing it up:

Nowhere does it say a Painboy can have 'evy Armour.

Ergo, a Painboy cannot have evy Armour.

It's not that hard to understand.

Dracos wrote:Here it is Gwar, only because you asked me to recopy it and can't seem to be bothered to scroll up a few posts.

This is the third time I've posted this now gwar, please just read people's posts next time.

Where does it say a Painboy stops being a Nob? I can be promoted to Captain in the army, but still remain an Army officer. What prevents a Nob upgraded to Painboy from still being a Nob as well?

Why is it not right? As I said, simply saying "no your wrong" is not helpful, or useful. You have to give a reason.

Dracos wrote:Which is fine, because at the time you chose the upgrade he was still a nob!

And afterwards you should be referencing painboy rules, which would include wargear.


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Mannahnin wrote:Where does it say a Painboy stops being a Nob? I can be promoted to Captain in the army, but still remain an Army officer. What prevents a Nob upgraded to Painboy from still being a Nob as well?

Which may be, I would love to see the reference.

This is why I am asking things.

Mannahnin wrote:Where does it say a Painboy stops being a Nob? I can be promoted to Captain in the army, but still remain an Army officer. What prevents a Nob upgraded to Painboy from still being a Nob as well?

It's profile.

An Apothecary isn't a Veteran and a Painboy isn't a Nob. A Terminator Sergeant isn't a Terminator anymore (so cannot take a Heavy) and an Aspring Champion is not a CSM anymore (so cannot take a Heavy).

Actually the painboy rules only tell you to replace some of his wargear. It does not say "A pain boy has XXX wargear"

I've already quoted the relevant passages many times. This is becoming strange that you guys are ignoring it/ refusing to address it directly.


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Gwar! wrote:But I digress. This is yet another post where certain people are arguing against the RaW simply because I am backing it up. Not surprising and as such I will take leave of this thread.

Wow, just wow. There is so much egotism here that its painful.

You seriously need to get over yourself. I have taken a side of the debate and offered RAW to support it. You are turning this into a melodramatic cryfest that people don't just agree with you. This isn't your personal soapbox Gwar.

The order of operation in the Ork FAQ applies to a model taking upgrades legal for that model in the first place. It says, I paraphrase really: The upgrade Nob can swap his choppa for another Nob legal upgrade. It then does not have the choppa to swap out when the remaining Boys swap theirs. To extend this to say that a Boy without base equipment can be upgraded to a Nob requiires an assumption of timing which does not exist in the rules.

Homer

Sorry Dracos you are wrong on this one. If it says my SM Scout Sergeant can take a combi-melta and then I upgrade him to Telion that does not give Telion a combi-melta...

This is the same situation as any upgrade to a Veteran status, you simply cannot give a model wargear then change the models type (Nob to Painboy) and retain that wargear unless you have special permission to do so. You do not have that permission.

calypso2ts wrote:Sorry Dracos you are wrong on this one. If it says my SM Scout Sergeant can take a combi-melta and then I upgrade him to Telion that does not give Telion a combi-melta...

The difference in this particular case, IMO, is one of wording.

The Scout entry says that the squad replaces the Sergeant with Telion. So yes, in that situation Telion would not have any of the Sergeant's gear. It's a straight swap.

The Nob entry doesn't say that the Nob is replaced. It just says that the Nob can be a Painboy. There is nothing that specifically says that he stops being a Nob... If I have 10 cakes, and one of them can be chocolate, the chocolate one is still a cake.

insaniak wrote:There is nothing that specifically says that he stops being a Nob

Yes, there is. The Painboys Profile.

insaniak wrote:The Nob entry doesn't say that the Nob is replaced. It just says that the Nob can be a Painboy. There is nothing that specifically says that he stops being a Nob... If I have 10 cakes, and one of them can be chocolate, the chocolate one is still a cake.

Yes, because it's a "chocolate cake". You didn't change anything about the fact that it is a cake. It's analogous to arguing that a nob given a power klaw is still a nob.

But a painboy isn't a flavor of nob, it has it's own completely separate profile. They cannot be the same thing.

Gorkamorka wrote:But a painboy isn't a flavor of nob, it has it's own completely separate profile.

It has a separate profile, yes... but that still doesn't mean that it can't be a type of Nob. It just means its a type of Nob that has a separate (although identical) profile.

insaniak wrote:

Gorkamorka wrote:But a painboy isn't a flavor of nob, it has it's own completely separate profile.

It has a separate profile, yes... but that still doesn't mean that it can't be a type of Nob. It just means its a type of Nob that has a separate (although identical) profile.

You do realize that makes absolutely no sense right? It's not a Nob, it's a Painboy. Nothing says it stays a Nob, so it doesn't.

insaniak wrote:

Gorkamorka wrote:But a painboy isn't a flavor of nob, it has it's own completely separate profile.

It has a separate profile, yes... but that still doesn't mean that it can't be a type of Nob. It just means its a type of Nob that has a separate (although identical) profile.

If I have ten cakes, and one of them can be pie, the one that is pie isn't a cake. It's a pie.

Just to chime in, there is a clear precedence for timing in the Ork Faq. There is no clear precedence for units losing wargear unless the entry specifically states it does.

SM Veterans/Apothecary is a flawed example. The Apothecary is never a veteran, he comes as an Apothacary. With Nobs, you start out with plain nobs. The only thing that the army list entry tells you to do for the painboy is to replace his slugga and choppa. There is no RAW impact on any other equipment.

Gorkamorka: Family orders chocolate cake with candles on it. They suddenly want angelfood. Do the candles disappear? (And yes I know it is a bad analogy)

Gorkamorka wrote:If I have ten cakes, and one of them can be pie...

...then you have a nonsensical statement.

One of your cakes could be replaced with a pie, but one of the cakes can't be a pie, because a pie is not a type of cake.


If you replace a cake with a pie, you have a pie instead of a cake, and the pie does not have to be considered a type of cake... it can be anything. The Painboy doesn't replace the Nob, though. The entry simply says that the Nob can be a Painboy. Grammatically, then, it has to be a Nob who is a Painboy.

But it doesn't matter that he used to be a nob, he isn't a nob anymore, so cannot take something that only nobs can take.

It's the same with every single other "upgrade" guy.

By your logic, a Flash Gitz Painboy has a 4+ save, when his profile, wargear and rules make it clear he has a 6+.

Actually the Flash gitz entry specifies that the eavy armor is replaced. That example actually supports the idea that only the equipment listed as replaced is actually replaced.

edit: Interesting that you didn't even bother to read the rules before using that as an example.

insaniak wrote:

Gorkamorka wrote:If I have ten cakes, and one of them can be pie...

...then you have a nonsensical statement.

But that is exactly how the rule as written is worded... a painboy has an entirely separate profile, an entirely different name, is an entirely different model, and is no longer a nob at all. The wargear buys specifically require that the model be a "nob", not a painboy.
If you want to argue that it doesn't make sense grammatically or that there's an order of operations or something then that's fine, but that's what it actually says.

What he is saying is that the analogy is useless. The resulting situation in the analogy is not analogous with the discussed situation.

The only real question here is if there is any reason to think that you may/may not take upgrades for the nob before he is upgraded to the painboy. I see no reason why not, but others might. While I think the position I've taken is the one most supported by RAW, I acknowledge that its not entirely clear.

Gwar! wrote:But it doesn't matter that he used to be a nob, he isn't a nob anymore, ...

This is an assumption that is not backed up by the actual unit entry. It doesn't say he ceases to be a Nob. It doesn't say to replace a Nob. It says that one Nob can be a Painboy.

So which model is the Painboy? That Nob is. He's a Nob who is a Painboy, because that's what the entry says happens.

Gorkamorka wrote:

insaniak wrote:

Gorkamorka wrote:If I have ten cakes, and one of them can be pie...

...then you have a nonsensical statement.

But that is exactly how the rule as written is worded...

Exactly. Which tells you that the Painboy has to still be a Nob. Because otherwise the option is nonsensical. For the option to result in the Painboy being something other than a Nob, it would have to specify that making him a Painboy means he is no longer a Nob.

If the entry said that the Painboy replaces the Nob, then you remove the Nob, and put a Painboy in his place.
If the entry said that the Nob is upgraded to a Painboy, then the result would still be somewhat ambiguous... you could argue that an upgrade is just a better version of the original, so a Painboy would just be a better class of Nob, or you could argue that the upgrade makes it something different.
But the entry simply says that one Nob can be a Painboy.

A car can be a Ford. That results in something that is both a Ford, and a car.
A Space Marine can be a Space Marine Captain. That results in something that is both a Space Marine Captain and a Space Marine.
A Nob can be a Painboy... See where this is going?

a painboy has an entirely separate profile, an entirely different name, is an entirely different model, and is no longer a nob at all.

The last is, once again, an assumption.

A Space Marine Captain has a separate profile and a different model to a regular Space Marine... but rules that apply to Space Marines still affect him, because he is both of those things.

Sorry For spending time with the Kids; now Gwar you asked me where the "magic order of operations" is that allows me to upgrade a nob with gear and then make him a Painboy.

I ask you to show me where the magic Order of operations is that says I must make a nob a Painboy before buying him any other gear.

You buy the base models for the units; these are all nobz, you can then upgrade those nobz with anything on the list, including becoming a painboy.

If you decide to upgrade the nob with Wargear before you decide to make him a painboy then you have a painboy with whatever items you had bought for the nob prior to making him a painboy(since he does not lose any wargear purchased for him).

If you decide to buy the unit and then immediately make one of them a painboy then of course no, he cannot be further upgraded with any of the wargear.

insaniak wrote:

Gorkamorka wrote:

insaniak wrote:

Gorkamorka wrote:If I have ten cakes, and one of them can be pie...

...then you have a nonsensical statement.

One of your cakes could be replaced with a pie, but one of the cakes can't be a pie, because a pie is not a type of cake.

But that is exactly how the rule as written is worded...

Exactly. Which tells you that the Painboy has to still be a Nob.

...then you have a nonsenstical statement.

One of your nobs could be replaced with a painboy, but one of the nobs can't be a painboy, because a painboy is not a type of nob.

Except that your Nob ISNT replaced by a painboy. One of your nobs IS a painboy.