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SaintHazard wrote:I need to put a disclaimer that says, "This is what the rules say, but this is not how I play it" in front of every single one of my posts?

If every single one of your posts is doing nothing more than pointing out broken RAW, then perhaps you need to re-evaluate just what you're doing here.

So can the painboy not take cybork either?

gitsnak wrote:So can the painboy not take cybork either?

Well, the language is clear: "All models in the Painboy's unit may have cybork bodies" (Ork Codex, p. 98); the painboy is among the models in his group.

Dang, and I was finally going to get back to that.

"The entire mob may be upgraded to:"
- Nob Bikers

Haelix wrote:Dang, and I was finally going to get back to that.

"The entire mob may be upgraded to:"
- Nob Bikers

Not that that matters; we have no Profile for "nob Bkers", so how do we determine their stats or upgrades?

I can continue to raise the point that if Gwar decrees either:
A) Wargear timing rules(per the Shoota Boyz and a Nob w/PK) does not apply to a Painboy(even though the Painboy upgrade only replaces very specific wargear items)
-or-
B) Painboyz cannot take nob gear because they are Painboyz not nobz

Then No nobz on bikes("nob Bikerz) can take any upgradesdue to no longer being Nobz; they are now "nob Bikerz"(and you could definitely never have a Pain boy on a Bike because you ypgrade your Nob to a Pain boy, then buy the upgrade for the unit and reset your Painboy to "nob biker").

Kommissar Kel wrote:
Not that that matters; we have no Profile for "nob Bkers", so how do we determine their stats or upgrades?

You don't need a profile. The book says nob bikers are mounted on warbikes. In the equipment section it refers you to page 46, were it tells you what a warbike is.

Kommissar Kel wrote:
I can continue to raise the point that if Gwar decrees either:
A) Wargear timing rules(per the Shoota Boyz and a Nob w/PK) does not apply to a Painboy(even though the Painboy upgrade only replaces very specific wargear items)
-or-
B) Painboyz cannot take nob gear because they are Painboyz not nobz

Then No nobz on bikes("nob Bikerz) can take any upgradesdue to no longer being Nobz; they are now "nob Bikerz"(and you could definitely never have a Pain boy on a Bike because you ypgrade your Nob to a Pain boy, then buy the upgrade for the unit and reset your Painboy to "nob biker").

A) There is a difference between the shoota boyz, and the nobz. In the boyz section it says the "Entire Mob." In the Nobz section all but the first two Options state "Any Nob"

B)Nob Bikers are still Nobz. As you already stated there is no profile for Nob bikerz, or no separate entry. Nob bikerz are simply a sub set of Nobz, and therefore inherit everything that a Nob would inherit. One of the things a Nob Bikers inherit is the ability to turn one Nob into a Painboy. The Painboy gets to replace his slugga and choppa, it does not state that he is removed from his bike.
The Painboy is also not a Nob, and cannot take any of the equipment that a Nob could take.

This is exactly the same 'issue' as shoota-nob + powerklaw, it's faqqed.
Upgrade the nob before you turn him into a painboy, since the upgrade doesn't mention losing anything in the process, he'll keep anything he had as a nob.

nostromo wrote:This is exactly the same 'issue' as shoota-nob + powerklaw, it's faqqed.
Upgrade the nob before you turn him into a painboy, since the upgrade doesn't mention losing anything in the process, he'll keep anything he had as a nob.

This doesn't seem right to me. The FAQ said the Nob could take his upgrades and then not have the wargear to swap away. It did not say, may take any Boy upgrade and then get made a Nob.

Homer

homer: there are no boy upgrades.

Geemoney: You are correct that the upgrades all say any nob, So you upgrade a Nob with Heavy armor, and any and/or all other upgrades that do not remove his Slugga and Choppa, then you upgrade that nob to a Painboy. You lose the slugga and Choppa for Doks tools and 'urty syringe, but no other wargear on him is changed.

Except you can't, as I have already pointed out...

Gwar! wrote:Except you can't, as I have already pointed out...

No, you really haven't you pointed out that a painboy cannot select any gear.

you then "pointed out" that the FAQ(which is codex-specific, not unit specific) "upgrade timing" somehow only applies to the boyz mobs. which by the way is an entirely arbitrary decision.

I pointed out that using upgrade timing you can upgrade a nob with nob gear and then upgrade that nob to be a painboy.

There is no raw to support your position Gwar. All it says is that

"Any Nob may take any of the following: 'eavy armour 5 points [...]"

and

"One Nob may be a Painboy".

It also says "Painboy replaces slugga and choppa with dok's tools and 'urty syringe".

Therefore you take one nob with the required slugga and choppa, and buy him eavy armour. Then you upgrade that one Nob to a Painboy. This is 100% what the codex tells you that you can do.

Dracos wrote:This is 100% what the codex tells you that you can do.

No, it doesn't. Nowhere does it say a Painboy can have 'evy armour.

But that's okay, because it does tell you that a Nob can have heavy armor, and that the only things the nob needs to become a Painboy is a slugga and choppa to exchange. So while it does not contain the phrase "A Painboy can take eavy armor", it gives you rules that allow you to aquire a painboy with eavy armor.

Gwar! wrote:

Dracos wrote:This is 100% what the codex tells you that you can do.

No, it doesn't. Nowhere does it say a Painboy can have 'evy armour.

nowhere does it say a painboy cannot have Heavy armor, but it does say that a nob can buy heavy armor and then that any Nob(including the one that bought the Heavy armor) could be upgraded to a painboy. That Painboy would then Have heavy armor(since he only exchanges the slugga and choppa when becoming a painboy)

When you upgrade to a painboy, isn't part (most?) of the point to change wargear?

The point is that they upgrade allows you to exchange some of his gear. Since it only says you exchange the slugga and choppa, that is the only gear that changes!

The errata is a different situation. Since the "entire mob" can take shootas that means the Nob can actually have one. The time issue is that if he exchanges the PK for the choppa before hand, then he no longer has a choppa and slugga to trade for a shoota. If the wording had said "all boyz" then there would be no issue.

Eavy armor can only be taken/worn by a nob, since the painboy is no longer a nob he can't have the same things Nobs can have. The two situations are not comparable because of the wording "any Nob" vs "the entire mob."

Except that there is no exception listed for the gear that the Nob who is chosen to upgrade to the Painboy can have. The only requirement is that you trade his slugga and choppa in for the tools and syringe. There is nothing applicable in the FAQ. Please show me where in the Ork codex it says that the Nob who is chosen as the one upgraded to the painboy can't have 'eavy armour. You already have your permission as I have explained, so now you need to find a restriction. You'll find that there is no such restriction.

When he becomes a painboy, would you not use the painboy as reference for what he carries?

Dracos wrote:Please show me where in the Ork codex it says that the Nob who is chosen as the one upgraded to the painboy can't have 'eavy armour.

Show me where it says he can.

Please, show me the line that says "A Painboy may have 'evy Armour."

THAT EXACT LINE. If it isn't there, he can't have it, period. A Nob can have it, because the rule say they can, but they do not say a Painboy can, so he cannot.

Wow, I opened up quite the discussion.

Here's an auxiliary question, based on the knowledge that some lists get canned by tournament organizers: Is it more prudent to leave the 'ard armor on or off the painboy?

Dracos wrote: You'll find that there is no such restriction.

Found it! "Any Nob may take..."

thunderingjove wrote:Wow, I opened up quite the discussion.

Here's an auxiliary question, based on the knowledge that some lists get canned by tournament organizers: Is it more prudent to leave the 'ard armor on or off the painboy?

Leave it off, because that's what the rules support.

Gwar; can you show me the line that says "a nob with upgrades loses those upgrades when made into a painboy"?

Or better yet: "One nob without any of the above gear may be a painboy"?

Kommissar Kel wrote:Gwar; can you show me the line that says "a nob with upgrades loses those upgrades when made into a painboy"?

Or better yet: "One nob without any of the above gear may be a painboy"?

No, I can't.

However, that's not how the rules work, and you know it. "It doesn't say I can't" is not a valid argument.

Nice try though, if not unsurprising.

You are claiming you can, so show me where it says you can.

I can't show you where it says you can't, the same way as I can't show you in the rulebook where it says I can't throw a brick at your car if you kill one of my terminator nor where it says I can't make you pay me $7,000 for every scout of mine you kill.

it does say that I can upgrade any/all Nobs; it then says that I can upgrade 1 nob to a Painboy, it does not say that that nob must not have any other upgrades, nor that he would lose any upgrades in the process of becoming a painboy; therefore I do have permission in this permissive rule-set to give a nob Eavy armor, and then make him a painboy thus having a painboy with eavy armor.

Personally I don't because I give the whole unit Cybork bodies and don't see the point in spending the points on both.... but that is just tactical choice not what the rules allow.

Kommissar Kel wrote:it does say that I can upgrade any/all Nobs; it then says that I can upgrade 1 nob to a Painboy, it does not say that that nob must not have any other upgrades, nor that he would lose any upgrades in the process of becoming a painboy; therefore I do have permission in this permissive rule-set to give a nob Eavy armor, and then make him a painboy thus having a painboy with eavy armor.

And this magic order of operations is found... where?

It's very simple:

Are these two words the same?

Painboy
Nob

Yes or No?

A Painboy is NOT A NOB, so cannot have items that only Nobs can take.

Listen Gwar, I've already delineated exactly where the order of operations is found. Its fine that you disagree, but stating that it does not exist is clearly incorrect.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Geemoney wrote:

Dracos wrote: You'll find that there is no such restriction.

Found it! "Any Nob may take..."

Which is fine, because at the time you chose the upgrade he was still a nob!

Dracos wrote:Which is fine, because at the time you chose the upgrade he was still a nob!

Again, where is this magic order of operations found in the Codex? Please, re-state it because I cannot seem to find it in my copy.