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Sorry if this has been talked about before, I don't come on the forums often. But I just tried searching for a similar topic and I couldn't really find anything. Anyways here are my thoughts. I have a tldr at the bottom for those of you that don't want to waste your time with my rant.

I feel like the CSM Codex is outdated. Why? Pretty much all the independent characters have no real purpose other than to fulfill fluff. Daemon Prince is almost always a better choice than an independent character. I would have liked to see the independent characters affecting the army as whole like changing play style and such like the space marines have.

Possessed and spawn are useless. Fast attack well.. what chaos player actually runs fast attack competitively? Chosen CSM... an infiltrating squad that cannot hold a point? That's pretty much only ever used to summon a greater daemon? Alright alright we could put a whack of them in a rhino and load them up with a bunch of meltas or plasmaguns etc okay I'll give em that. Lesser and greater daemons are not god specific? Just generic daemons? Lame.

Heavy support? OBLITORATORZZ LOLZ HAHAHA WTFOMGOMGOMGLULZZZ111. Why would you even consider playing defilers, predators, vindicators, or land raiders when oblitorators are so 1337? Defilers because they are fluffy? Predators because you bought one before you knew how good obliterators are? vindicators? I've never seen a chaos vindicator in my life. Maybe it has its uses but oblitorators are still numbro uno. Land Raider? Nobody wants to run a land raider because everyone is complaining about how csm land raider sucks compared to the sm land raider.

I'm not saying the codex sucks. What I'm saying is its unbalanced. There are some really great units in the codex and there are some really terrible units, and then there are mediocre units. The problem is that the really great units (ie. daemon princes and oblitoratorz) over shadow the rest of the codex's choices. The main thing I'll complain about is all the cool independent characters that are pretty much useless. Okay some are usable like Kharn for instance but don't even get me started on Typhus.

The codex did well with the cult troops in that you can have a sense of dedication or a specific god. But for those that want to run a slaanesh list or nurgle list, typhus and lucious are lolnoobs when compared to the daemon prince choices. Oh and I forgot about terminators. Great when used as a 3 man termicide squad for 105 pts. But if you want to dedicate them to a specific god, then you need to run a ten man squad to make the icon price worth it. And even then, that is a very expensive squad that is not fearless. Nobody really runs 10 man terminator squads, it's just not practical. What are you going to do? Deep strike them? That's like a 300+ price squad that comes in approximately turn 3-4 on average. And on the turn it comes in it can't move. So if they come in on turn three, they aren't assaulting anything until at least turn 4. These squads are only viable in massive games because in smaller games they just take up too much of your army pts and puts it off the table leaving your three rhinos to get pwned.

And Typhus. The coolest looking independent character of all time. Lord of Nurgle. Nurgle who is the god of decay. His followers are known for being particularly resilient. Now check this out. Typhus' toughness is 4(5). Yep he gets instagibbed by powerfists. wow. And to make matters worse that's over 200 points for a model that gets instakilled and provides no bonuses to your army. LORD OF NURGLE HE IS SUPPOSED TO BE RESILIENT. A regular plague marine has toughness 4(5). A space marine with icon of nurgle has toughness 4(5). EVERYBODY AND THEIR MOTHER'S DOG HAS TOUGHNESS 4(5)!!!!! he needs eternal warrior or higher toughness. period.


TLDR

Do you think the csm codex is outdated? Unbalanced? I think it does not allow for much variety. I play chaos what should I buy. Daemon Princes and Obliteratorz durr. Oh you like slaanesh? Cool you could get lucious the eternal he's an independent character dedicated to slaanesh. Oh I forgot Daemon Princes are better. durr. What do you think of the csm codex?

Anyone know if they are going to make a new codex for csm? And if so when?

Of course it is; it's only in its 4th edition if I'm not mistaken.

There are still 3 3rd edition Codices that need an update (Necrons, DH, WH), another 3rd edition one just got its update (Darl Eldar). So join the queue.

The CSM codex is tied with Orks as far as being a competitive non-fifth edition codex in fifth edition.

IE, it's at the top, not the bottom.

Kroothawk wrote:There are still 3 3rd edition Codices that need an update (Necrons, DH, WH), another 3rd edition one just got its update (Darl Eldar). So join the queue.

Melissia wrote:The CSM codex is tied with Orks as far as being a competitive non-fifth edition codex in fifth edition.

IE, it's at the top, not the bottom.

These to posts are correct.

Yes, it is outdated and not the best Codex, however it's not uncompetitive or as bad as all the Chaos fan-boys make it out to be.

Heavily themed armies can still be at least semi-competitive and many of the choices aren't as bad as you make them out to be. Yes Daemon Princes and Obliterators dominated their respective FoC, but they aren't the 'be all and end all' and anyone with at least a semblance of imagination should be willing to consider the other choices.

I have beef with the fact that the chosen of the chaos gods, ie the independent characters in the book, don't have eternal warrior...

Beyond that the CSM book is doing quite well.

I regularly run Chaos Vindicators, as Obliterators are too goddamn fiddly to put together and I can't be arsed to convert them. Besides, Vindicators are badass. Strength 10 AP 2 ordnance weapon? I think so!

I dissagree to all this fluff about CSM codex been outdated, because I use everything in the codex very well.

Lesser/Greater Deamons I use well with a Bezerker unit but my only bad thought is Lesser Demons are basicly CSM's without bolters.

Obliterators are the bomb, to bad they only come 1-3 per unit.

Vindicators are awesome but to be effective you need 2 in your force as 1 becomes dead in turn 1 or 2.

I never use the charicters in the codex, they are usless, so I take a Chaos Lord and put him in Termi armor and give a Deamon Weapon (Bloodfeeder).

Only Gods I care to use are Khorne and Nurgle, because of the close combat effectiveness and toughness.

Chossen are good for infiltrating if armed right and have the right support such as Obliterators or a Termi unit.

Predators rock as a Med Tank and can have plenty of hvy weapon support.

Regular Demon unit choices I like are Bloodletters and Nurglings and even Furies.

Chaos used to be the best army choice for its close combat capabilities, I normally tear apart most armies unless my opponent runs an all plasma Space Wolf gun line.

I love running full 10-man Termi squads, I deep strike them to distract my opponents forces long enough to gain my primary objective. Then blast and overwelm my opponent with my Bezerker squad, a basic hack and slash manuever that I love.

I hate the Insanity rule on Chaos Dreadnoughts there usless unless put up front were they die on turn 1 or 2.

Landraiders are awesome and I am saving up to get one soon but must finish my Fallen Guard first, My Catchian Blob unit comes first.

I love the Brass Scorpion/Defiler a very nice vehicle.

Only thing I really want are legal Chaos Supper Heavies like Cannon of Khorne, Tower of Skulls Culdron of Blood and the like vehicles to be in the new Codex. Otherwise I will dump my Chaos Marines for Fallen Guard fully.

The copyright date for Codex: ChaosSM is 2007, so I think this is less about being 'out-of-date' and more about perceived codex 'wane'.

Here is the codexes' publishing history.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Codex_(Warhammer_40,000)

Perceived is right.

Melissia wrote:Perceived is right.

I was wondering if I shoulda used italics on that word.

They don't seem to need a new codex right now, but need a new unit cultist anyone .

There is potential for an update, but the codex is not really showing it's age.

Pretty much what folks have said here. The CSM Codex remains one of the better books today. Lots of good to excellent unit choices in there, some of them though are just head and shoulders above the rest; Obliterators, Daemon Princes, Khorne Berserkers, Plague Marines for a few examples.

On some of the choices that are considered dodgier, well that's life. I know that Possessed, for all the folks that seem to dislike them, seem to show up a lot at the tournaments I go to. I'll admit that their mechanic is a little mismatched with the army (give an Ork player a random table like the Possessed one and they'll love it, a Marine player, not so much), but they're still a good close combat unit and one that people seem to enjoy painting and converting. I know they tend to be some of the more interesting models on the table.

My main issue with the current CSM codex though is the Fast Attack section. There's just not much there. Raptors seem to get mixed reviews (I know I painted up some Nurgle Raptors for my buddy and while they look good, they just don't seem to work out terribly well on the table top). Bikes, I find that I just don't see, though that is probably due at least in part to the price of the models and Spawn, well, I'll field a unit or two if I'm borrowing Chaos models, but most folks won't.

Bikers have alot of potentials depending on what you give them, since all of the marks seem to compliment what the bikes do. You're right on the cost issue, that's the main reason why I dont field bikes. They also compete for points against the other stuff you see. FA choices are usually passed up in favour of more elites and heavy support. The baseline Possessed is still very powerful for what you pay for. Give them a mark and watch the havoc they can cause.

Most of the complaints are from mono-god purists, who play armies that are based around one cult trooper and one type of mark. Slaanesh DPs might be awesome at lashing people about, but Noise Marines certainly are not good as bread and butter troops (more like elites). They cant compare with a normal CSM squad given a MoS, who are basically the same statwise, but cost much less. The lists for mono-gods are also much less fluffy than they use to be. Gone are the days of Rubric Terminators (at least outside of Apocalypse) and Doom Siren Dreadnoughts, which I do find myself missing.

I agree with you in many points, such as the chosen ones, the characters (I wanted a IW character! *sad*) and Typhus (WHY the heck is he so noooooob?!). However, I dissapoint in other points:

1.- Yep, obliterators are *insert mega-sentence-with-no-meaning-but-thisisawesome here*, but I like the other heavy support choices! Defilers are really useful when bombarding the enemy or crushing it in CC, and having such a vehicle (wich has an awesome looking too) for 150 points is really good. And the other vehicles are useful too: in fact, I want a vindicator or a land raider for my IW (I'll have obliterators, of course, and a defiler). Vindicator cannon has S 10, it's heavy artillery and uses the big area, and the land raider is a very resistent vehicle. Moreover, vehicles are always useful

2.- About spawns: they are made for distraction. For you, it doesn't matter if they die or not. But for the enemy, they're a constant pain: kill them or kill the others? Because if he/she lets them come, they would attack his/her units, and remember that they're wild beasts fith S 5, R 5 and W3. So, adding a few of them will allow you to protect your most important units: I have 2 of them.

About the other, yes, you're right, specially on the demons part: oh-noes!

Hope this helps! ^^

PS: obliterators NEED new models! They look as if they were wearing flesh like necron flayed ones (instead of having daemonic substance melting their flesh, armor and weapons), and their faces are stupid! Me, I'll convert my ones ^^

It's still a very competitive codex. Sure, it can be a little bland/cookie cutter, but so is C:SM if you're not taking biker armies or all drop pods.

It sure has more units in more roles than my crazy space knight Black Templars.

MechaEmperor7000 wrote:
Most of the complaints are from mono-god purists, who play armies that are based around one cult trooper and one type of mark. Slaanesh DPs might be awesome at lashing people about, but Noise Marines certainly are not good as bread and butter troops (more like elites). They cant compare with a normal CSM squad given a MoS, who are basically the same statwise, but cost much less. The lists for mono-gods are also much less fluffy than they use to be. Gone are the days of Rubric Terminators (at least outside of Apocalypse) and Doom Siren Dreadnoughts, which I do find myself missing.

To a degree this is the main thing for most folks who can't stand the current CSM book. However I do not think for many of us its even about the power lvl, I'd (and I'm quite sure I'm not alone) happily sit at the bottom of the pile competive wise if we had the choices back. We went pretty much went from possibly the most fun, fluffy and interesting Codexes in the game to select our armies from, to one of the worst.

It was like giving us a big box of Legos for a few years, and then taking them all away apart from a couple of blocks and a quick thumbs up to reasure us that all was fine.

I haven't seen many who have played the previous codex for any decent period of time say they love the new book and prefer it to the 3rd ed one.

Morathi's Darkest Sin wrote:

MechaEmperor7000 wrote:
Most of the complaints are from mono-god purists, who play armies that are based around one cult trooper and one type of mark. Slaanesh DPs might be awesome at lashing people about, but Noise Marines certainly are not good as bread and butter troops (more like elites). They cant compare with a normal CSM squad given a MoS, who are basically the same statwise, but cost much less. The lists for mono-gods are also much less fluffy than they use to be. Gone are the days of Rubric Terminators (at least outside of Apocalypse) and Doom Siren Dreadnoughts, which I do find myself missing.

To a degree this is the main thing for most folks who can't stand the current CSM book. However I do not think for many of us its even about the power lvl, I'd (and I'm quite sure I'm not alone) happily sit at the bottom of the pile competive wise if we had the choices back. We went pretty much went from possibly the most fun, fluffy and interesting Codexes in the game to select our armies from, to one of the worst.

It was like giving us a big box of Legos for a few years, and then taking them all away apart from a couple of blocks and a quick thumbs up to reasure us that all was fine.

I haven't seen many who have played the previous codex for any decent period of time say they love the new book and prefer it to the 3rd ed one.

I dunno, I got along just fine with the new codex. Sure, some of the fluffy stuff was taken out, but that was because some of that really was quite viciously broken. Not all of it, but some. Besides, I can always look up fluff or just make up my own, I'm happy with a codex that's competitive. Of course, I actually own the 3rd Ed codex, so I have ALL the fluff I could want. Hoorah!

Gorskar.da.Lost wrote:

Morathi's Darkest Sin wrote:

MechaEmperor7000 wrote:
Most of the complaints are from mono-god purists, who play armies that are based around one cult trooper and one type of mark. Slaanesh DPs might be awesome at lashing people about, but Noise Marines certainly are not good as bread and butter troops (more like elites). They cant compare with a normal CSM squad given a MoS, who are basically the same statwise, but cost much less. The lists for mono-gods are also much less fluffy than they use to be. Gone are the days of Rubric Terminators (at least outside of Apocalypse) and Doom Siren Dreadnoughts, which I do find myself missing.

To a degree this is the main thing for most folks who can't stand the current CSM book. However I do not think for many of us its even about the power lvl, I'd (and I'm quite sure I'm not alone) happily sit at the bottom of the pile competive wise if we had the choices back. We went pretty much went from possibly the most fun, fluffy and interesting Codexes in the game to select our armies from, to one of the worst.

It was like giving us a big box of Legos for a few years, and then taking them all away apart from a couple of blocks and a quick thumbs up to reasure us that all was fine.

I haven't seen many who have played the previous codex for any decent period of time say they love the new book and prefer it to the 3rd ed one.

I dunno, I got along just fine with the new codex. Sure, some of the fluffy stuff was taken out, but that was because some of that really was quite viciously broken. Not all of it, but some. Besides, I can always look up fluff or just make up my own, I'm happy with a codex that's competitive. Of course, I actually own the 3rd Ed codex, so I have ALL the fluff I could want. Hoorah!

I'm more of a themed guy. Loosing a few battles is fine so long as I can still field my fluffy army. A Lord with a Mark of Khorne just doesnt feel like a true Khorne Berserker lord. Havocs with the Mark of Nurgle just doesnt feel like Plague Marine Havocs. True while that, gameplay wise, they're almost identical to their 3rd ed counterparts, they just dont fit in with the new Cult Trooper counterparts. The removal of God-specific daemons is also kind of a low blow. However taking a look at all of the possible Cult Trooper variants, it's easy to see why they're taken out. Plague Havocs will probably be devastating since they can mount in a rhino and run about pelting people with plas shots and are extremely hard to put down. Noise Marine Havocs will be equally annoying since they're effectively a unit of 4 micro battle cannons.

There's also the matter of loosing the Legion specific Rules. They could have just as easily put it into the new codex (say, take a raptor lord for Night Lords and you get Raptors as a Troop Choice. Have Warsmiths still part of the codex and when you take a Warsmith lord you get to take one or two tanks for Fast Attack). Codex: CSM is probably one of the more competitive one now, but they are lacking some of the variety seen in newer codexes (namely, the ones where the FoC is rearranged when you take a certain character).

My Word Bearers are still mourning the disappearance of their beloved Dark Apostle.....

MechaEmperor7000 wrote:Codex: CSM is probably one of the more competitive one now, but they are lacking some of the variety seen in newer codexes (namely, the ones where the FoC is rearranged when you take a certain character).

So... basically like every codex that wasn't made in fifth edition?

Great to hear some feedback from you all. I totally agree that the csm codex is competitive. I just don't like the fact that I have to run obliteraters and daemon princes in order to compete. I really dig the chaos fluff but I'm turned off by the fact that if I want to stay competitive I am being pushed more and more towards a cookie cutter list. I want to be able to stay fluffy and develop my own unique kind of strategy. It seems like when opponents are playing against chaos they already know what to expect as all chaos armies are pretty similar to play against. I want to be able to be unique and competitive. Chaos is probably not the army to do this with.

But all and all yeah I'll admit there are worse off codex's out there. And nobody really wants to listen to people complain about the csm codex when csm are still competitive and kicking people's butts. But I'd be more than happy to see a new codex in the next year or two.

I feel sorry for Emperors children - they got hosed, so many redundant sonic weapons that simply arent useable.

The biggest problem isnt that it cant win - it can - but that it is fairly dull. You cant build a Legion army, you can only build a renegade with cultist backing army.

I was OK with the current book, there justification of toning things down until they came out with the current Marine codex. Then I got pissed off.

Fleet Infiltratin Terminators, Rock solid characters, 3++ saves everywhere... looks like they threw "toning down" out the window!

Granted I still do well using select units from the book but so did Dark Eldar players before last Friday. When half of the units in your list range from "why the HELL would I ever run that?!" to "not nearly as good as those are" I believe it's a shoddy codex.

It's not a question of competitiveness, it's a question of the codex making you want to play that army. Which this one doesn't. Good thing I'm building Night Blood Lord Angels instead!

SlaveToDorkness wrote:It's not a question of competitiveness, it's a question of the codex making you want to play that army.

So you mean fifth edition armies do a good job making you want to play them?

I would say that bodes rather well for CSMs whenever they get their codex, wouldn't it?

stealth992 wrote:I just don't like the fact that I have to run obliteraters and daemon princes in order to compete.

I don't think you do. Sometimes paying less for a cheaper and seemingly weaker HQ unit is better. It's very rare when the more expensive one is completely and utterly superior to the cheaper one.

For example, the Daemon Prince is an MC, which means that, with a mere +1T and +1Wn, he's actually MORE vulnerable than a Chaos Lord to enemy shooting attacks.

Melissia wrote:

MechaEmperor7000 wrote:Codex: CSM is probably one of the more competitive one now, but they are lacking some of the variety seen in newer codexes (namely, the ones where the FoC is rearranged when you take a certain character).

So... basically like every codex that wasn't made in fifth edition?

Daemon and Witch Hunters have some variety since you can take Inquisitorial trooper armies, SoB armies, Grey Knight Armies or (if you had the actual books) Allied armies. Tau has Farsight Enclaves. In the newer dexes, Eldar has Wraithguard and Aspect Armies, and DA and Orks both have their own FoC reworks. The two Chaos Codexes are pretty much the only "new format" codexes that do not have their FoC reorganised when you do something special, and the Daemon Codex is excused because there's really no point in reorganising it (the only possible ones I can think of is a Full DP army or Bloodcrushers as troops, both of which will have many people Cheep cheep Cheaping all over the place).

Melissia wrote:

SlaveToDorkness wrote:It's not a question of competitiveness, it's a question of the codex making you want to play that army.

So you mean fifth edition armies do a good job making you want to play them?

I would say that bodes rather well for CSMs whenever they get their codex, wouldn't it?

And personally the 5th ed codex are rather tempting, if only for the fluffy parts. How awesome is it to field an entire army of Sanguinary Guard, or veteran bikers, or 9 tanks, or a haemonculus coven, or a list with Monstrous Creatures as Troops? They might not be competitive or even viable in some cases, but they're possible.

Fifth edition codices are not only very fluffy, they're also very competitive. Fourth and third edition codices have to struggle to match up with fifth edition ones. Yes, even Tyranids.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

MechaEmperor7000 wrote:Daemon and Witch Hunters have some variety since you can take Inquisitorial trooper armies, SoB armies, Grey Knight Armies or (if you had the actual books) Allied armies.

That's two separate codices which have some of the same units each (inquisitors and stormtroopers, which each only have a small difference between the two books). That's not variety. And most tournaments don't allow allies nowadays, so that's not variety either. Stormtroopers are incredibly outdated, especially in the Witch Hunters codex.

stealth992 wrote:Great to hear some feedback from you all. I totally agree that the csm codex is competitive. I just don't like the fact that I have to run obliteraters and daemon princes in order to compete.

As well as almost any other unit in the army list bar (possibly) Possessed. Don't want oblits? Take Vindicators.
VINDICATORS!

Melissia wrote:Fifth edition codices are not only very fluffy, they're also very competitive. Fourth and third edition codices have to struggle to match up with fifth edition ones. Yes, even Tyranids.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

MechaEmperor7000 wrote:Daemon and Witch Hunters have some variety since you can take Inquisitorial trooper armies, SoB armies, Grey Knight Armies or (if you had the actual books) Allied armies.

That's two separate codices which have some of the same units each (inquisitors and stormtroopers, which each only have a small difference between the two books). That's not variety. And most tournaments don't allow allies nowadays, so that's not variety either. Stormtroopers are incredibly outdated, especially in the Witch Hunters codex.

Three distinct army across two books, that's pretty varied. However there are a few themed builds in 5th that are not really viable. A pure Death Company Army going at an Objectives game or having a Wolf Guard Jumppack army.