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If you look at the current codex and compare it to the 3rd edition codex you'll find it is more in line with that one than the 4th edition book. Basically that is why I think Jervis Johnson is no longer writing any codices. You have a book with a few good units compared to the majority:

Lash Prince/Nurgle Prince
Greater Daemon
Obilterators
Khorne Berzerkers/Plague Marines

Occassionally you'll see some terminators. No one I know ever plays Havocs or Possessed. So it's very boring as compared to the 4th edition codex which was considered by many to be the best ever codex. To me it's just a shame when a codex takes that big of a hit. Most people I know that play CSM are fairly new to the game and did not play using the 4th edition codex. The lack of cult terminators always bothered me as well as how icons work now. So it's an okay codex if you are alright with it being a mere shade of what it used to be. Don't you think it's funny that Obliterators are T4 now when you have T5 2W Thunderwolves running around with a 3++ ?

What people play with does not equal what's good.

MechaEmperor7000 wrote:Three distinct army across two books, that's pretty varied.

No... it's not. IT was pitiful back in third edition and it's pitiful now. Third edition Guard and Marines, fourth edition Marines, even fourth edition Orks and Eldar, all have far more variety.

I dont think you'll find many players who'll say the units I listed aren't good. In fact they are the staple units for most CSM armies.

And? People skip over a lot of good choices because of the perception that they aren't.

Most of the complaints I've seen with the 3rd ed was that the CSM codex wasnt competitive. They kinda went in the wrong direction and got rid of the fluff when trying to make it competitive. 5th ed has been pretty good in that respect and there isnt as much "cookiecutter", but that's probably why most people are crying for updates. I dont know about the others but I tend to skip over units I dont think are fluffy. And for a supplimentary Codex the Inquisitorial ones did pretty good. Fourth Ed Orks and Eldar were written with the style of the 5th in mind (since you can see some of the FoC changes they make), especially the Orks which was prettymuch borderlining with the 5th ed release.

CSM tends to be one of the more cookie cutter netlists and is often referred to as lash spam. In general it does not have the flexibility of the last codex. Of course we all know that GW is currently dumbing down 40k so while that was to be expected to some extent I think it was a bit of an eye openers to older veteran CSM players. I'm not saying units like lesser daemons are junk or nobody in their right mind would ever field Possessed but honestly you don't seem them all that often. You can't totally sweep aside perception - it's there for a reason. If more people were winning with units like Enhanced Warriors then you'd here more good things about them. The internet tends to stick with the top performing units and builds - and that's for a good reason.

Actually, yes, you can sweep aside perception. To do otherwise is a logical fallacy called 'argumentum ad populum', or 'arguing that stuff must be popular for a good reason'.

If you can do it more power to you. But it's one thing to take about and another to actually do it. We talk about lots of things so that's okay.

Anyways here is a fantastic unit I dont see anyone using ever:

Chaos Havocs with MoK...
Load them up with meltaguns. Each Marine has four attacks on the charge. Not shabby at all but like I said I don't see anyone ever run any units like that. It's too bad.

That's actually a good unit. However Khorne Havocs are seen as un-fluffy =(

Perception.

It was from a brief era where GW was trying a too minimalist approach to their rules writing. Both it and the Dark Angels codex are a bit outdated as a result. It's still viable enough though, just lacking some flavor.

I sweep aside perception all the time.

I mean, there's plenty people out there that still think the Witch Hunters codex sucks and can't win games. Or that Orks have to have nob bikers (or just nob squads period) to win. Or that Guard needs to be mechanized to win.

As a Thousand Sons player, It's been a slap in the face to see more amazing psychic powers in every new codex. As well as improved psychic defenses in every new release. Don't get me started on the wolf codex, my 10,000 year old rivals get better spells and protection from other spells then the supposed best sorcerers in the universe. Garbage.

You mean Eldar?

Melissia wrote:I sweep aside perception all the time.

I mean, there's plenty people out there that still think the Witch Hunters codex sucks and can't win games. Or that Orks have to have nob bikers (or just nob squads period) to win. Or that Guard needs to be mechanized to win.

Most people I know respect SoB as a competitive. I think since the complete range consists of pewter minis they are unpopular. Nob bikers took a big hit with the nerf bat when the new IG came out with their PSB. Blob guard is okay but not as versatile as mech. To say you presented these as new and excepted ideas sounds a bit of a stretch - maybe within your own circle but not across the interwebs.

annabelle wrote:As a Thousand Sons player, It's been a slap in the face to see more amazing psychic powers in every new codex. As well as improved psychic defenses in every new release. Don't get me started on the wolf codex, my 10,000 year old rivals get better spells and protection from other spells then the supposed best sorcerers in the universe. Garbage.

Wolves are also suppose to abhor magic and sorcerors too. Oh delicious Irony.

BloodThirSTAR wrote:

Melissia wrote:I sweep aside perception all the time.

I mean, there's plenty people out there that still think the Witch Hunters codex sucks and can't win games. Or that Orks have to have nob bikers (or just nob squads period) to win. Or that Guard needs to be mechanized to win.

Most people I know respect SoB as a competitive. I think since the complete range consists of pewter minis they are unpopular. Nob bikers took a big hit with the nerf bat when the new IG came out with their PSB. Blob guard is okay but not as versatile as mech. To say you presented these as new and excepted ideas sounds a bit of a stretch - maybe within your own circle but not across the interwebs.

The internet is stupid, and also stupid.

Don't forget, the internet invented Al Gore.

BT - actually the *current* codex is the 4th ed one, the previous codex was "3.5" - second one released in 3rd ed.

It was very powerful all through 3rd/4th, as it exploited the power builds (siren bike princes, bound letters) hugely. It was also a complete mess in terms of layout, with lots of if/then/else/if combos in there.

The current codex is just Renegades, and I wanted a Legion book.

annabelle wrote:As a Thousand Sons player, It's been a slap in the face to see more amazing psychic powers in every new codex. As well as improved psychic defenses in every new release. Don't get me started on the wolf codex, my 10,000 year old rivals get better spells and protection from other spells then the supposed best sorcerers in the universe. Garbage.

I feel your pain brother. It must be a hard road following tszeech. I play my eldar buddy who always puts the avatar of kaine against me. that thing is a little over 150 pts toughness 6. Typhus is over 200 pts toughness 4(5).


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Nurglitch wrote:Actually, yes, you can sweep aside perception. To do otherwise is a logical fallacy called 'argumentum ad populum', or 'arguing that stuff must be popular for a good reason'.

Alright, perception aside. I refuse to play with daemon princes and obliterators because I want to have some sense of uniqueness. So I always run either Abaddon or Kharn or both. Here's my list at 1850 and I have a heck of a time being more than semi-competitive.

Abaddon

X4 Terminators: x4 combi weapons, x1 power fist

X10 CSM: x2 melta, champ with power fist, IoCG
rhino

X10 CSM: x2 plasmaguns, champ with power fist, IoCG
rhino

X8 Khorne Berserkers: champ with power fist, personal icon
rhino

X10 Lesser Daemons

X2 Defilers: x2 cc weapons

Land Raider: daemonic possession



Now that list being said, if I were to ask people what they think, they'd say drop Abaddon he costs too much. Even drop the Termies and the Land Raider. That's easily over 600 points right there. Throw in two Daemon Princes and a squad of obliteraters, and another squad of Khorne Berserkers in a rhino and you'll be truly frightening.

All I'm saying is I play with some mediocre units and when I play against a power gamer I get noob stomped. Honestly I don't think there should be anything wrong with this list. 4 troop choices, a number of guns for various situations. I've got heavy support defilers lobbing plates from behind. I've got a land raider rushing forward. I've got csm squads sneaking to claim victory points kited out with the means to take out a variety of opponents. I've even got lesser daemons ready to lend a hand at any given location.

So this is an anecdotal argument. I use semi-effective and effective units. And I'm certainly not winning any tournaments. But all kinds of people out there are trying out all kinds of stuff in the codex and telling each other how it works. And if you put all of that information together you will get a statistical correlation between the most competitive units and the units that are most popular.

So when we are talking about 'perception' we aren't arguing that popularity causes efficacy. We are saying that the popularity of a unit correlates with the effectiveness of the unit, in which case it would be reasonable to 'perceive' the most popular units as the best units. Because with a large enough sample size, the chance for error is reduced which makes the correlation more reliable.

Have a look at some serious tournaments, are there any winning chaos armies that do not include at least one daemon prince and/or one obliterator squad?

MechaEmperor7000 wrote:That's actually a good unit. However Khorne Havocs are seen as un-fluffy =(

actually khorne havocs are not un-fluffy at all
khorne dont care if you shoot or chop if the blood flows

Abbadon's a pussy, both in-fluff and in-game. Stop runnin' him

Hopefully a legion codex will be released so we can play proper Chaos again.

BloodThirSTAR wrote:Hopefully a legion codex will be released so we can play proper Chaos again.

"Proper" Chaos has absolutely nothing to do with Chaos Space Marines.

Melissia wrote:Abbadon's a pussy, both in-fluff and in-game. Stop runnin' him

Too many points as well, and too slow.

nosferatu1001 wrote:

Melissia wrote:Abbadon's a pussy, both in-fluff and in-game. Stop runnin' him

Too many points as well, and too slow.

I'd have to agree, but he's pretty good for "hammer and anvil" tactics. I place him up front of my army, he draws all the fire, while the rest of my force pincer moves from the side. Most of the time, he can take all the punishment too, and comeback with 4 + D6 attacks.

BloodThirSTAR wrote:
Hopefully a legion codex will be released so we can play proper Chaos again.

I'd bet we'd be one of the last to get an update though.

Except if they have any sense they'll shoot your fast flanking units first, and deal with abaddon a turn later. Hence i use suicide daemon princes - the run ahead, drawing fire, and are quick enough (15" a turn, on average) that you have to deal with them before they are in combat and relatively "safe" from harm. This lets my rhino bezerkers advance, which are the long term threat

Worked well this weekend as well, 10th out of 40...

I'd suggest people stick to the topic and rather than gripe about missing the previous Codex, discuss (although this is the internet, lets say argue) how they do in 5th edition. Which is in most cases, fine.

Here's my opinion on the Chaos choices in regards to 5th edition:

- Daemon Prince - Very Good. This really doesn't need explaining.
- Chaos Lord - Average. Over-priced and not too hard hitting, but is still a very capable IC.
- Chaos Sorcerer - Average. As above, but Warptime, Wind of Chaos and Lash of Submission are all good powers.

- Chaos Terminators - Good. Cheaper than normal terminators, access to 5pts combi-weapons and lots of CC goodies. Better than their reputation, but Reaper Auto sucks.
- Possessed - Average. Look past their random factor (which still provides good bonuses) and they are a very deadly unit. Expensive however and, yes, random. But this is Chaos.
- Chosen - Above Average. Ability to wield MANY assault weapons is very effective. Infiltration is neat too. Bit too expensive again however.
- Dreadnought - Poor. Flawed by random/self-harm factor, but with 2x CCW is still a deadly unit. Too few viable options, but Crazed/Frenzy has always been there.

- Chaos Space Marines - Good. Cheaper than their Space Marine counter-parts and have a wide variety of good available to them. Special weapons are (NOW) comparatively over-priced but they make good choices alongside the more expensive cult-troops. Solid back-bone.
- Khorne Bezerkers - Very Good. Expensive but cheap for what they can do. Very deadly in assault and scoring. Only significant problem is getting them to assault.
- Noise Marines - Average. Very expensive and sonic weapon can underwhelm. Do well in small quantities and as auxiliaries rather than back-bone though.
- Plague Marines - Very Good. One of the best troop choices in the game. Deadly and GREAT for holding an objective.
- Thousand Sons - Poor. Very expensive and under-whelming performance. Only redeeming factor is AP3. Too expensive to be readily viable.

- Spawn - Very Poor. Best used as a distraction/speed-bump. Otherwise (or including) they are a helluva waste of 40pts.
- Bikers - Very Poor. Over-costed and under-perform. Can be good delivery for lesser-daemons and special weapons but are otherwise weak.
- Raptors - Good. Marginally more expensive than their recent Codex-cousins, still effective though and can fill good roles. YMMV however.

- Havocs - Poor. Low manoeuvrability and expensive weapons. Marks don't really help either. Can 4x assault weapons or autocannons but are otherwise too weak.
- Predator - Good. Often over-looked, but still pretty cheap and can provide a considerable amount of fire power and armour saturation.
- Vindicator - Good. Some hate it, some love it. Only slightly more expensive than codex-counterpart, but none-the-less very deadly, suits the Chaos play-style and DP can work well.
- Obliterators - Very Good. One of the best heavy choices in the entire game. Versatile, tough, cheap and can be numerous. It's all good.
- Land Raider - Above Average. Lacks PoTMS but is still very tough, very deadly and can work well to deliver assault units. Often under-rated IMHO.

- Greater Daemon - Good. A still good unit, very power and cheap, can appear right in front of enemy too. However, lacks wings and DP is better.
- Lesser Daemons - Average. Reliable deep-strike and pretty good in assault, scoring too. However, lack range and are expensive.

So in my opinion at least, Chaos can still perform well in 5th edition. Definitely considering the age of the Codex. Also, if they are this good at the moment, then imagine their 5th edition codex!
I admit, they aren't the best and it can be difficult to make truly competitive builds. But there are still plenty of options, plenty of themes and are still a good and competitive codex IMHO at least.

It's a codex that was born between the transition from 4th to 5th...so literally it's outdated.

As describe by other players, it still places on Tourneys...it may not 'win' with the big name armies recently, but it's still competent.

Or it could show that players that place are good players working at a handicap/making the most out of the Codex.

Right, forgot where I was going with that. The spells in the chaos book are out-dated. Warptime is the only good one, but too expensive. Lash is a pony with few tricks, once you've been to that rodeo a couple times you have it beat. The other spells can't compare to anything newer.

Just Dave wrote:I'd suggest people stick to the topic and rather than gripe about missing the previous Codex, discuss (although this is the internet, lets say argue) how they do in 5th edition. Which is in most cases, fine.

Here's my opinion on the Chaos choices in regards to 5th edition:

- Daemon Prince - Very Good. This really doesn't need explaining.
- Chaos Lord - Average. Over-priced and not too hard hitting, but is still a very capable IC.
- Chaos Sorcerer - Average. As above, but Warptime, Wind of Chaos and Lash of Submission are all good powers.

- Chaos Terminators - Good. Cheaper than normal terminators, access to 5pts combi-weapons and lots of CC goodies. Better than their reputation, but Reaper Auto sucks.
- Possessed - Average. Look past their random factor (which still provides good bonuses) and they are a very deadly unit. Expensive however and, yes, random. But this is Chaos.
- Chosen - Above Average. Ability to wield MANY assault weapons is very effective. Infiltration is neat too. Bit too expensive again however.
- Dreadnought - Poor. Flawed by random/self-harm factor, but with 2x CCW is still a deadly unit. Too few viable options, but Crazed/Frenzy has always been there.

- Chaos Space Marines - Good. Cheaper than their Space Marine counter-parts and have a wide variety of good available to them. Special weapons are (NOW) comparatively over-priced but they make good choices alongside the more expensive cult-troops. Solid back-bone.
- Khorne Bezerkers - Very Good. Expensive but cheap for what they can do. Very deadly in assault and scoring. Only significant problem is getting them to assault.
- Noise Marines - Average. Very expensive and sonic weapon can underwhelm. Do well in small quantities and as auxiliaries rather than back-bone though.
- Plague Marines - Very Good. One of the best troop choices in the game. Deadly and GREAT for holding an objective.
- Thousand Sons - Poor. Very expensive and under-whelming performance. Only redeeming factor is AP3. Too expensive to be readily viable.

- Spawn - Very Poor. Best used as a distraction/speed-bump. Otherwise (or including) they are a helluva waste of 40pts.
- Bikers - Very Poor. Over-costed and under-perform. Can be good delivery for lesser-daemons and special weapons but are otherwise weak.
- Raptors - Good. Marginally more expensive than their recent Codex-cousins, still effective though and can fill good roles. YMMV however.

- Havocs - Poor. Low manoeuvrability and expensive weapons. Marks don't really help either. Can 4x assault weapons or autocannons but are otherwise too weak.
- Predator - Good. Often over-looked, but still pretty cheap and can provide a considerable amount of fire power and armour saturation.
- Vindicator - Good. Some hate it, some love it. Only slightly more expensive than codex-counterpart, but none-the-less very deadly, suits the Chaos play-style and DP can work well.
- Obliterators - Very Good. One of the best heavy choices in the entire game. Versatile, tough, cheap and can be numerous. It's all good.
- Land Raider - Above Average. Lacks PoTMS but is still very tough, very deadly and can work well to deliver assault units. Often under-rated IMHO.

- Greater Daemon - Good. A still good unit, very power and cheap, can appear right in front of enemy too. However, lacks wings and DP is better.
- Lesser Daemons - Average. Reliable deep-strike and pretty good in assault, scoring too. However, lack range and are expensive.

So in my opinion at least, Chaos can still perform well in 5th edition. Definitely considering the age of the Codex. Also, if they are this good at the moment, then imagine their 5th edition codex!
I admit, they aren't the best and it can be difficult to make truly competitive builds. But there are still plenty of options, plenty of themes and are still a good and competitive codex IMHO at least.

Well said. But you forgot about Defiler!! I love my defilers!!! Only when they are pwning of course... and not when they get gibbed turn 1-2.