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I'm less offended by the current CSM codex than I am by the 12-year-old webspeak in the OP.

Obliteratoz?
Lolnoobz?
1337?

:/

Melissia wrote:And? People skip over a lot of good choices because of the perception that they aren't.

Whereas YOUR perception is, of course, infallible.

ArbitorIan wrote:I'm less offended by the current CSM codex than I am by the 12-year-old webspeak in the OP.

Obliteratoz?
Lolnoobz?
1337?

:/

Melissia wrote:And? People skip over a lot of good choices because of the perception that they aren't.

Whereas YOUR perception is, of course, infallible.

go troll yourself

stealth992 wrote:

ArbitorIan wrote:I'm less offended by the current CSM codex than I am by the 12-year-old webspeak in the OP.

Obliteratoz?
Lolnoobz?
1337?

:/

Melissia wrote:And? People skip over a lot of good choices because of the perception that they aren't.

Whereas YOUR perception is, of course, infallible.

go troll yourself

you reread your post without thinking 'wait..cogent sentence goes where?' and come back to us.

Xca|iber wrote:It's still a very competitive codex. Sure, it can be a little bland/cookie cutter, but so is C:SM if you're not taking biker armies or all drop pods.

It sure has more units in more roles than my crazy space knight Black Templars.

Word, brother, word.

Well before this spirals out of control, I'd have to say the CSM codex could use an update, but as previously stated, it's not number 1 on the list by a long shot. I say it does its job admirably against a good number of the newer codexes, and it will be updated in time. For a long time I ranted about all the nuances that don't exist anymore, how the codex took legions and made them, "space pirates", and how it forces you to use one specific list if you want real results. However I realized that all that fruitless ranting and raving was just going to give me an ulcer and premature gray hairs. with all the new codexes out there today you have a lot of great possibilities for 'counts as' Chaos armies. Does it suck? yes. Will life go on? yes. Do I not understand why Typhus, Lucius, Ahriman, and Kharn aren't counted as 'Eternal Warriors" when Lysander is? yes.

Does warhammer really not have the budget to put out these codex's when they are needed? Or what is their justification for not making the codex's balanced? This game is a lot like an rts video game. If there are armies that are unbalanced or simply better than other ones, it ruins the game. I really think there should be a more efficient way of keeping the codex's up to date and balanced. For one, at least they should have new codex's released when they change the edition. There shouldn't even be any armies playing with a codex written for the 4th edition being used in a 5th edition game.

I think codex's should be electronic and updated through the internet. That way they could keep all the armies balanced and on par with one another. And maybe you could still buy the paper back codex but it does not have any stats or rules, it only has fluff and background info. That way the paperback codex would always be the same one and the rulings would be subject to change for the sake of balance and quality of game. Personally I'd gladly pay for an electronic codex that gets updated often that I just have to print off every update.

COuple reasons why not:

1) Barrier to entry. Hard to get people going if they have to go home first to find out what everything does. In addition having rules change too often is impractical - hence the tendency to leave 40k FAQs alone.

2) Longevity. Knowing your army will be valid for, usually, at least one edition (past the 3rd ed hiccups ala Chaos, Eldar and Necron with stealth / not so stealth reprints...) means you will make the investment.

3) Time to develop. Thye dont just magicaly appear, they require model support i.e. releasing a codex isnt just releasing a set of stats. It all takes time, and the core studio team isnt huge.

Hey does this mean we'll get another CSM codex with "OMG Cheeze" type shenanigans that leave people bandwagon jumping or crying like babies??
That would be sweet.

BrotherSRM and the book Storm of Iron have me considering starting a Chaos force myself as my 4th army (IRON WITHIN, IRON WITHUHHHGGGH!!!). I like painting hazard stripes. I also like modeling and playing but dislike painting, and they seem to have a pretty simple scheme. So, I've been browsing the codex quite a bit lately.

In some ways, the layout is worse, and in some ways it's better. I like not having to go to three different pages to learn Chaos Terminators can Deep Strike and have a 2+ armor save and 5+ invulnerable save.

Strange that there is no entry for the Warsmith, but there is a model, it's so typically the other way.

The real question is when are some of these models going to get an update? I'm looking at you, Chaos Dreadnoughts, with your stupid bulky frames and dumb looking noodle arms. Honorable mentions to Raptors and Obliterators, and of course Abbadon, Master of Fail.

Ouze wrote:Strange that there is no entry for the Warsmith, but there is a model, it's so typically the other way.

Sadly under the current codex he's merely an unmarked Lord with combi-melta and power weapon/power fist/lightning claw/daemon weapon. No rules for the servo arm in the CSM codex. It's very frustrating that the codex doesn't really allow the same level of personalisation as others.

Also note that Chaos terminators do NOT have relentless; most notably they cannot fire rapidfire weapons as if stationary.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Also note that Chaos terminators do NOT have relentless; most notably they cannot fire rapidfire weapons as if stationary.

Right, edited my post to clarify.

No worries. It is similar enough to relentless that its easy to miss what it doesnt allow you to do.

Good news is most plyers IRL seem t oregard that as slowed, and are happy to let you use bolters at 24" on the move.

The question is, when is it important to Chaos termies to shoot that far to break with RAW?

WHen you lose as many to DS mishaps as I do.

I run a unit of 8 Khorne marked (of course) and so foot slogging tends to be my favourite mode.

As it stands, Chaos has several jarring flaws with it:

-Heavy Support oversaturation: Obliterators, Defilers, and Predators. This is your only ranged AT slot unless you really trust in Reaper Autoterms (ha!). Thus this area gets filled up quickly as you either take Obliterators or Autolas+Havoc Predators.
-Overcosted Fast Attack: 4th edition pointcosts rear their ugly head here as Bikes are not worth taking beyond the minimum-sized suicide squads, and Raptors are similar in this regard...and don't even get started on Spawn. "La-de-da-da-da, I'm a instadeathable, no-save, fearless gimp who must charge the closest available target? What, my opponent brought functional Walkers? Nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo..."
-Meh Psychic ability: Warptime is good and Lash is...annoying. The rest is bleh. Ahriman is the worst Psyker Special Character in the game; when Zogwort is better than you, that's saying something. The lack of any Psychic Defense whatsover is also not nice...I'm not saying that Sorcerers should get Psychic Hoods (in fact, anything but that! Codex: Spiky Marines makes me sad), but more offensive forms of Psychic Defense including Warp Talismans or the Infernal Puppet would be nice.
-Elites that really aren't: Dreads...ugggh; they might or might not be usable depending on your local group's ruling on whether or not they see out their ass. The Terminators are nice and cheap but in most builds, the only time they're taken is as disposable combi-meltas. Possessed could be cool if you rolled the Power Weapon effect, then you notice the Khorne Berserkers in the Troop section. So this leaves...Chosen. Which aren't bad but "Infiltrating Suicide Melta" is kinda...eh.
-A random tendency to forget they're worshipping Chaos: Rather than upgrading individual models with the Mark of Their God, having Bob the Bearer remind them "Hey Guys, we're Worshipping Khorne" before being torrented out of his squad...yeah.

Or outflanking suicide melta. Although with IoK they throw out a handy amount of attacks.

CSM terminators aren't actually all that cheap; they just get less stuff by default than loyalist terminators. There's almost nothing that they actually do BETTER than BA termies or WGTs, mostly due to a lack of cheap TH/SS.

Is it outdated? Yes. Is it competitive and viable still? Yes.

The problem is a lack of versatility and the fact that many units are quickly becoming overcosted. Plague Marines were once an insane value. They are still good, but with FNP being handed out for nothing, the cost increase on them isn't quite the steal it used to be. There are plenty of overly expensive units and some that are "fun only".

HQ- Daemon Prince is so much more cost effective it hurts. The high proliferation of poisoned weapons is the only thing that makes me think twice. It's sad that my Nurgle DP fears 10 super gaunts more than 10 space marines The Sorcerer would be good if he had a hood equivalent or a free psychic power. The Lord can be good, but lacks options. Still a good section, just not great.

Elites- Do you like suicide Termies? Super unfluffy, but effective. Sadly other armies have way cheaper and better suicide meltas. Chosen are intriguing but the points add up too fast. I've not been impressed with Chaos Dreads. I always seem to have them do the wrong action at the wrong time. Overall, just a crappy section.

Troops- Normal CSM, Plague Marines and to a lesser extent Berzerkers are still good. Noise Marines are fun but get to expensive for what they are. Thousand Suns aren't good. No drop pods, no razorbacks mean no real versatility. Competitive enough I guess.

Fast attack- almost not worth dignifying. Raptors are cheap suicide squads or mini deathstar? Maybe. The rest...guh. Basically, you need to have a plan to take anything here. It's way to expensive and doesn't give enough output versus cost. Overall, crappy section.

Heavy Support-Some good choices. The problem is that the entire codices ranged anti tank is confined here. So CSM players almost have to fill all three. Oblits are great, but pay for their versatility. Make no mistake, they are appropriately costed. Predators and Vindicators are arbitrarily more expensive than their loyalist equivalents but are still good. A Daemonically Possessed Vindi is a nice choice. Defilers are ok. Too hard to get a cover save and otherwise very fragile. Havoks...not great. Land Raiders are ok, but no PotMS is only a 25 point discount? Overall, good section.

Daemons- This has been debated ad nauseum. People love them or hate them. I love them.

The problem with the CSM codex in my mind is that there "bests" at the major FOC slots. Why take a Lord or Sorcerer when you can have a DP for 25 more points? Why take anything but PM's or CSM's? Why take any elites or fast attack? Heavy support is the section that has the most debate, though Oblits offer the best versatility.

Not enough fluff or choice. That is why CSM is the biggest fail right now in my mind.

You take bezerkers over plagues now*, FNP is too easy to bypass and, while plagues generally dont die in combat they dont really kill much either.

*actually have done for a while. Hitting on 3s wounding on 3s, before MEQ equivs, is golden. But i would say that, being a khorne bunny....

I love them.

Lol... if only I could hear this more.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
FNP can be by passed sure, but those things take more points.

Plague marines are known to shrug off small arms and still do. They were not supposed to shrug off plasma equivalents...and people surprised that they are being scythed by said weapon surprise me honestly.

Basically.... the Chaos Codex is outdated, but it FORCED the meta to change along with the introduction of 5th ed.

Go mech and go special weapons.
That, to me, means they are still high on up there in terms of respect from me.

But there are more players who are in the 'here and now' and don't care about other factors...

Lol... if only I could hear this more.

Lesser Daemons fill an amazing role and have great synergy with Plague Marines. I saw a battle report on here a year ago or so and it gave me the idea. They are great against everything PM's aren't. Simple enough. I've had them run down Ghaz once. Go figure.

MagicJuggler wrote:I'm not saying that Sorcerers should get Psychic Hoods (in fact, anything but that! Codex: Spiky Marines makes me sad), but more offensive forms of Psychic Defense.

I agree on both counts. I'd like to see a corrupt psychic hood type wargear for sorcerors that, instead of simply canceling the spell, actually harms the caster - focusing the warp they were tapping into, onto them in a nasty way. Maybe even a D6 where 1-2 does nothing, 3-4 is a small bolter template, and 5-6 are psychic wounds that ignores saves, like a GK flamer.

Gw always cuts too deep. They did late 4th edition codices in a deliberate effort to make them streamlined, easy to use, and straightforward. That produced Dark Angles (Boring and lousy) and CSM (Boring with six really good units).

it was never a particularly popular book (HBMC's review is legend), but it stayed around due to the powerful POD list. As other books are showing that they can be both powerful and interesting, Chaos is looking more and more like an evolutionary dead end.

I wouldn't hold my breath for a new book. As has been stated, there are three 3rd edition books still out there, a rarely played black templar codex from early 4th, and the sneaky bad Eldar book.

Chaos is a great book compared to those.

The more and more I think about it the more I get pissed off. In the past year they have come out with two brand new armies; space wolves and blood angels. Plus they have redone dark eldar. This means they made a crap ton of new models and a crap ton of new rules for these codexs. Now as nice as it is to see two new armies.. Why the hell did they make new armies when we've got plenty of outdated models and codex's in the armies we have RIGHT NOW!?!!? Seems to me GW needs to get their priorities straight. ALOT of people play csm. It's one of the most popular armies. They do have the means to get their junk up to date it's just they used their means to make two new armies. Now all of us who are playing with outdated stuff got screwed over.

What is GW thinking? It's like buying racing tires for a bloody ford escort. Buy the racing car first, then buy the racing tires.

Blood Angels and Space Wolves are both popular and old Codices.

Blood Angels didn't even have an actual Codex (just a PDF) and Space Wolves were oldest, 2nd to Dark Eldar IIRC.
Dark Eldar REALLY needed updating, there's no point even arguing that.

Out of these three armies, only one of them could barely be used competitively and their models were (mostly) even older than CSM's.

Codex CSM still isn't that out-dated (as this thread has shown), there's a lot of conversion possibility, variety of army lists and loads of support from Forgeworld. Yes they are a very popular army, but so are many others which could claim a need for an update.

CSM really really shouldn't even be the next Codex, or the one after the next or even the one after that.

Get your facts straight. BA and SW are not two new armies and Chaos Space Marines have been looking fairly young and grey-hair free compared to Necrons, Grey Knights, SoB and until recently, Dark Eldar and Space Wolves too.

stealth992 wrote:The more and more I think about it the more I get pissed off. In the past year they have come out with two brand new armies; space wolves and blood angels. Plus they have redone dark eldar. This means they made a crap ton of new models and a crap ton of new rules for these codexs. Now as nice as it is to see two new armies.. Why the hell did they make new armies when we've got plenty of outdated models and codex's in the armies we have RIGHT NOW!?!!? Seems to me GW needs to get their priorities straight. ALOT of people play csm. It's one of the most popular armies. They do have the means to get their junk up to date it's just they used their means to make two new armies. Now all of us who are playing with outdated stuff got screwed over.

What is GW thinking? It's like buying racing tires for a bloody ford escort. Buy the racing car first, then buy the racing tires.

You're aware that BA and SW have been in the game since 2nd ed, right? And that they've been due a redone codex each since that time? That CSM have actually been updated more times than them?
I suggest you look into the facts a bit more, good sir.

Polonius wrote:Gw always cuts too deep. They did late 4th edition codices in a deliberate effort to make them streamlined, easy to use, and straightforward. That produced Dark Angles (Boring and lousy) and CSM (Boring with six really good units).

it was never a particularly popular book (HBMC's review is legend), but it stayed around due to the powerful POD list. As other books are showing that they can be both powerful and interesting, Chaos is looking more and more like an evolutionary dead end.

I wouldn't hold my breath for a new book. As has been stated, there are three 3rd edition books still out there, a rarely played black templar codex from early 4th, and the sneaky bad Eldar book.

Chaos is a great book compared to those.

I agree. The only thing that's annoying about this hobby IMO is that updates take way too long.

candy.man wrote:

Polonius wrote:Gw always cuts too deep. They did late 4th edition codices in a deliberate effort to make them streamlined, easy to use, and straightforward. That produced Dark Angles (Boring and lousy) and CSM (Boring with six really good units).

it was never a particularly popular book (HBMC's review is legend), but it stayed around due to the powerful POD list. As other books are showing that they can be both powerful and interesting, Chaos is looking more and more like an evolutionary dead end.

I wouldn't hold my breath for a new book. As has been stated, there are three 3rd edition books still out there, a rarely played black templar codex from early 4th, and the sneaky bad Eldar book.

Chaos is a great book compared to those.

I agree. The only thing that's annoying about this hobby IMO is that updates take way too long.

Nope not aware. Never seen SW nor BA in my life until this year. All I know is on warhammer.com when you look at the 40k 'armies' section, before this year there was no space wolves or blood angels. Now there is and they have a host of brand new units.

That's because they were their own independent armies with their own independent codices with a few of their own independent models.
However, they were simply categorised under 'Space Marines' in the online store.
They were however old, un-supported but much-loved armies that were revamped and simply moved in the online store to have their own category. Its simply the same thing that happens with every new army, except this time they had a change in label in GW's online store. That is all.

I'd really recommend knowing what you are talking - or more importantly - complaining about before you say it...