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I'm not sure of the RAW interpretation of the "heroic intervention" of the Vanguard Veteran squads (codex:SM and Codex BA)

Thy cannot perform a heroic intervention if an IC had joined the squad. you decide before the rolling of scatter dice if the Vanguard perform an heroic intervention.... Now... What if the squad deploy next to a IC already on the table at the start of the turn? The IC should join the squad ... can the vets assault with him?
Normally it's not important... we assume that vanguard an IC assault separately and then the IC can join the squad... or something similar... But what if the IC confers a special rule to the vets? for exemple a Librarian with force dome or a chaplain allowing them to reroll failed "to hit".

What do you think about this? Do you knw if there is any FAQ about this situation? (I didn't find but maybe I didn't search in the right place)

Thank very much in advance!

Well the rule clearly says that:
"The ability cannot be used if an independant character has joined the Vanguard Veteran squad"

So I would assume that no; they could not assualt with the IC if it joins them since they just arrived from deepstrike and the IC cancels the rule out.

It's clearly stated, but when do you actually use the rule? Is it when you declare the Intervention (before deepstriking) meaning you can't DS with an attached IC? Or does "use" extend to the assault that you couldn't otherwise do?

My first sensation was the same as Kaine... but in reality it's not clearly stated because the use of the heroic intervetion actually intervenes before the deployment of the unit...

I'd like also to explain the reason I would like to know the exact interpretation.

:I drop pod a tactical with a chaplain inside

: while the tactical reach an objective, the chaplain leaves it and join the vanguard that do not scatter thanks to the locator beacon of the drop pod

: The Chaplain leads the Vanguards in the assault phase to counter any unit wishing to get close to the objective

Thanks very much guys!!


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And... in addition, I simply think that the intention of the GDs was to avoid that vanguard heroicly intervene with an attached IC ...


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It would be broken... but this tactic could be quite interesting... and I also think it's pretty fluff-wise... The commander asking desperate help in the form of mighty bulky marines... But I'm not tryng to justify a rule interpretation by saying it's fluffwise... I'm just saying it would be cool!

No. Just no.

HI allows for Vanguard Vets to assault after Deep Striking. It isn't the act of Deep Striking the rule prevents the IC from doing since he can legally do that. It is the allowance of assaulting after Deep Striking that the IC is prevented from doing. So when you join the IC, the VGV cannot now HI, which is assaulting after deep striking.

Yes Ramses... but in this case the IC is not deepstriking...

maybe I confused you explaining my tactic... The drop pod arrives on the table in a round prior to the arrival of the vanguard (hopefully the drop pod in turn 1 and the vanguard in turn 2)

punkow wrote:Yes Ramses... but in this case the IC is not deepstriking...

maybe I confused you explaining my tactic... The drop pod arrives on the table in a round prior to the arrival of the vanguard (hopefully the drop pod in turn 1 and the vanguard in turn 2)

Yea I got you there. But the point of the rule is that it allows the VGV to assault after deep striking. This is lost when joined by an IC. They just revert back to a unit that has deep struck and normal rules prohibiting assaulting after deep striking apply.

uhmmm you have a point too... We should be in the head of Matthew Ward to know what is the exact purpose of tyhe rule... Anyway, I won't use this tactic in tournaments... I see It's a little too controversial... Maybe a house rule for friendly plays...

punkow wrote:uhmmm you have a point too... We should be in the head of Matthew Ward to know what is the exact purpose of tyhe rule... Anyway, I won't use this tactic in tournaments... I see It's a little too controversial... Maybe a house rule for friendly plays...

What does Heroic Intervention do?

Allows a unit to assault after deep striking.

A unit cannot perform a Heroic Intervention if joined by an IC

Ergo, a unit cannot assault after deep striking if joined by an IC.

Seems pretty straightforward to me.

I dont think you can. Would be cool if you could thought.

mmmh... I understand... my question came from the fact that according to RAW you choose to perform the heroic intervention before the deepstriking... and what if the chaplain couldn't reach assault distance without staying within 2" from the Vanguard arrived in that moment?
He cannot move there so he cannot assault? It seems absurd to me!
I'm not saying I'm right... I just say that it doesn't seem so straightforward to me...

I'd be open to letting an IC that stood where the squad landed join without interfering with the Intervention, as long as the IC isn't otherwise forbidden from assaulting. After all, what could be more Heroic than joining your HQ in assaulting the enemies of the Emperor?

But by the letter of the rule it's probably not meant to be.

Here is how I would play it based on my interpretation of the HI rule - if an IC joins the squad after they deepstrike onto the table they lose the special rule. To me this one is black and white. I'll just leave it at that.

I would say it's allowable, because as was stated, Heroic Intervention is used before the deep strike actually takes place. I think the main reason they forbade this is to prevent Dante from joining, not scattering, and then assaulting without any possibility of mishap. I would probably say that the IC can't move any further, and couldn't shoot because he is now part of the HI squad.

The rule for HI existed prior to the new BA codex. So no it was not written with him in mind.

BloodThirSTAR wrote:The rule for HI existed prior to the new BA codex. So no it was not written with him in mind.

But as it's in the new codex, it obviously was written with a scenario similar to Dante's in mind. Either way, it doesn't matter as the squad doesn't have an IC until after the heroic intervention is used.

Except heroic intervention must still be "active" in order to allow them to assault. If you join an IC to the unit HI is cancelled, preventing them from assaulting as they are now a plain old just-arrived-from-DS unit.

Exactly, if an IC joins the squad HI is lost. It's very clear.

Actually this situation happened a few weeks ago on our local monthly club game. A Vanguard Squad performed Deep Strike first, scattered a few inches but arrived safely. Next an unattached IC ( Chaplain ) dropped form the sky, aiming a safe distance from the squad. Unfortunately he rolled a really bad scatter, narrowly avoiding a Mishap, ending next to the squad. End result: the IC joined the Vanguards, who now were unable to assault the CSM squad standing stunned a few inches away . Hilarity ensued.

At the risk of losing an IC like a chaplain,would a multi assault work ? The VGV DS to do an intervention,assault and the chaplain then assaults by himself.Hopefully the VGV will cause enough casualties so that the risk to the chaplain is minimal and he will not be killed in the retaliation.

A-P wrote: Actually this situation happened a few weeks ago on our local monthly club game. A Vanguard Squad performed Deep Strike first, scattered a few inches but arrived safely. Next an unattached IC ( Chaplain ) dropped form the sky, aiming a safe distance from the squad. Unfortunately he rolled a really bad scatter, narrowly avoiding a Mishap, ending next to the squad. End result: the IC joined the Vanguards, who now were unable to assault the CSM squad standing stunned a few inches away . Hilarity ensued.

That is quite humorous and unfortunate for that blood angels player. In that case, the squad could not assault as not all members of the squad would be able to assault that turn. The IC couldn't leave either, as the IC rules say that they can't leave the squad in the shooting or assault phase.

However, heroic intervention states that it is used before deep-striking takes place. Here's the logic chain:
1) Declare deep-strike and Heroic Intervention
2) Check if ICs are attached; nope none attached when declaring.
3) Heroic intervention is now in effect. The unit can assault after deepstrike, but can no longer shoot.
4) IC (not deep-striking) Joins the squad. HI does not say to remove the assault.
5) HI works as intended and the now IC led squad can assault. However; since the unit as a whole can not shoot, neither can the IC

If you think about it logically, the real reason they disallowed ICs from using HI, is that the ICs themselves don't have it in their profile. GW is essentially saying that the HI ability does not get conferred to ICs and since the whole squad is limited by it's most restricted member (in terms of movement/assault), it can't be used. It's just like all the USRs that don't get conferred to the whole squad just because one member has them.

No if an IC joins the squad they cannot assault from deepstrike. The rules are very clear. The intent is also very clear. If they intended for it to work with an IC the rules would said so.

Did the IC deep strike also? If not, just make sure to move it out of coherency before the end of the movement phase. That is when an IC joins/leaves a unit. Since DS'ing occurs at the start of the movement phase, an IC already on the table should have that option to still move.

Homer

2 bits:

1) I support that the Intent of the Rules are Clear(No Heroic intervention when an IC deepstrikes with the squad); But the (poorly) Written rules are also Clear No ICs with the squad at all for HI to actually work. Now the Rules are not written at all to take into account an IC joining the squad after they Deepstrike, but the line about no HI with attached ICs is an independent sentence and thus all encompassing: so sorry no HI with an IC ever.

2) So long as you have you IC > than 2"(as in 2.001" away from your Vanguards, he is not attached and can assault the same squad they are independently. You do not have to worry about said IC getting Shot at, the IC fights as his own unit in assault, and now the IC is capable of shooting before the assault(assuming the IC has an assault-type ranged weapon).

Rephistorch - except HI STILL needs to be in effect when you are in the assault phase - as this is when you check for the condition "unit arrived from deepstrike?" being fulfilled. HI is negated once an IC is attached, even after deepstrike, as it gives no time limit. So when you get to assault you have no permission to make an assault move.

BloodThirSTAR wrote:No if an IC joins the squad they cannot assault from deepstrike. The rules are very clear. The intent is also very clear. If they intended for it to work with an IC the rules would said so.

Not quite. "This ability can not be used if an IC has joined their squad."

When is the ability used? Before deep-striking.
Does the squad have an attached IC before deep-striking? No.
The unit uses the power, and it lets them assault in the assault phase, but not shoot in the shooting phase.

The rule does not say, "The unit may not assault if an IC has joined their squad.", It says that the ability can not be used. Since the ability has already been used, the squad can be joined by an IC after the unit has arrived, and the power is still in affect. No where does it say, "This power stops being in affect after an IC joins the squad". Again, it only limits it's use, and the use occurs before the squad is joined.

Assaulting is not "using" heroic intervention. Heroic intervention, after being used (before deepstriking), allows assaulting.

BloodThirSTAR wrote:No if an IC joins the squad they cannot assault from deepstrike. The rules are very clear. The intent is also very clear. If they intended for it to work with an IC the rules would said so.

I wouldn't say the intent is clear in that regard. The phrase was added in clearly because they didn't want you using Dante to deepstrike with Vanguard Vets, not scatter at all, and then assault. That would be broken.

If two seperate squads deepstrike seperately, and an IC somehow finds himself in 2" coherency of another squad without mishapping, I'd let you do it out of astonishment. That should basically never happen without at least one mishap.

HI existed before Dante's new rules. Same exact wording. Now I am curious though - did someone from GW actually tell you that or is it an assumption of yours?

I'd say they kept it in for that specifically.

Also note how I didn't say I agreed, RAW - RAW they couldn't do it. RAI I'd let it happen, because it's so unlikely.

Once the vanguard has charged into contact with the enemy... HI is no longer in effect, it's done it's thing and is over. After the van charges, I see no conflict with RAW in the IC then charging into the same unit as HI is no longer in effect. Even if chargers are declared simultaneously, the IC is still not within 2" of the squad, so at the charge declaration is still not conflicting with HI / RAW.