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Heroic Intervention is NOT used before Deep Strike. It is declared. It is USED when they assault after Deep Striking. That is all Heroic Intervention does, it allows assault after Deep Striking.

Your play on sequence of events is wrong.

I thought the IC had to move to join the unit, regardless--not the other way around.

More to read.

Editing to add:
I did miss a bit, I get it.

I do not think it would work as the unit does not have HI when it declares its assault.
I think I get the other side's view, but I think it is wrong. heh

/shrug

Rephistorch wrote:
However, heroic intervention states that it is used before deep-striking takes place. Here's the logic chain:
1) Declare deep-strike and Heroic Intervention
2) Check if ICs are attached; nope none attached when declaring.
3) Heroic intervention is now in effect. The unit can assault after deepstrike, but can no longer shoot.
4) IC (not deep-striking) Joins the squad. HI does not say to remove the assault.
5) HI works as intended and the now IC led squad can assault. However; since the unit as a whole can not shoot, neither can the IC

If you think about it logically, the real reason they disallowed ICs from using HI, is that the ICs themselves don't have it in their profile. GW is essentially saying that the HI ability does not get conferred to ICs and since the whole squad is limited by it's most restricted member (in terms of movement/assault), it can't be used. It's just like all the USRs that don't get conferred to the whole squad just because one member has them.

Like I mentioned, you are completely off on your "logic" sequence.

1. Declare Deep Strike and Declare Heroic Intervention (declare, NOT use).
2. Deep Strike as normal.
3. Do not shoot.
4. USE Heroic Intervention to assault.

The ability cannot be used if an independant character has joined the Vanguard Veteran squad

Notice what I have emboldened in the rule. Not declare, but USED. When is Heroic Intervention used, not declared, but USED? When you assault. So an IC joining the VGV after it has Deep Struck, prevents the ability (Heroic Intervention) from being used, ergo, no assault after Deep Striking.

Brother Ramses wrote:Heroic Intervention is NOT used before Deep Strike. It is declared. It is USED when they assault after Deep Striking. That is all Heroic Intervention does, it allows assault after Deep Striking.

Your play on sequence of events is wrong.

Doesn't matter, as long as the IC is not with the unit when it assaults, there is no issue.

Gitsplitta wrote:

Brother Ramses wrote:Heroic Intervention is NOT used before Deep Strike. It is declared. It is USED when they assault after Deep Striking. That is all Heroic Intervention does, it allows assault after Deep Striking.

Your play on sequence of events is wrong.

Doesn't matter, as long as the IC is not with the unit when it assaults, there is no issue.

Have you even read the thread? The whole point of the OP and Rephis is attaching the IC before they assault and still using Heroic Intervention to assault. Seriously man, read the whole thread.

The IC cannot assault from deepstrike. That is the point.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
The IC cannot assault from deepstrike. That is the point.

I did read the whole thread, perhaps you should re-read it.

The original question as to whether a vanguard unit can from deep strike can essentially land near and IC already on the table and charge was cleared up pretty cleanly. No. It was proposed then by Pdero Kantor, that the van could deep strike in outside of 2" of an IC, complete their charge using HI, then the IC could independently charge the opposing unit on his own... ending up in the assault within 2" of the vanguard and by default... being joined to the unit. That's what I was responding to.

I thought that would have been obvious by the language used in my original post... if you'd bothered to read it carefully.

Gitsplitta wrote: ending up in the assault within 2" of the vanguard and by default... being joined to the unit.

That can't happen. ICs cannot join or leave units in the assault phase. While the IC would be treated as a separate unit during combat anyway, he would still be a separate unit for combat resolution/consolidation.

Ah... solves that then. Thanks Arshbombe.

Except that is never an issue as the IC is not joined to the Vanguard squad at that point - it is an irrelevant point to this discussion, as it never impacts HI. You cannot join a squad outside of the movement phase, assault /= movement phase, sorted.

Wow, that was exhausting...

Anyways, having just read through the posts of the thread, I'll add my comments on how I feel things have progressed:

1. HI is declared before Deep Strike happens.
2. Deep Strike occurs without a mishap, and VGV's are safely on the board.
3. VGV's do not shoot, but can assault.
4. If an IC is already on the table, and joins the same assault, but as a separate unit (as in "unattached from VGV"), HI is still permitted.

Golden Question: When is HI not permitted?

HI specifically states that if an IC joins the unit of VGV's before they launch their assault (after arriving via Deep Strike), then the ability is canceled/nullified/taken away/Adios amigo...

While I do believe that the RAW is pretty clear, I can see how some may interpret it differently. My take on the RAI in this case, is that GW did not intend for IC's to be able to join these assaults because of balance of power. Especially, if given the right IC for support (ie - a Chaplain or Librarian), VGV's would be absurdly overpowered. This is ALL aside from the fact that no other IC has the HI abiltiy, which, TBH, I don't think is the main reason why IC's aren't allowed to join VGV units that want to use HI.

Imagine the possibilities if it was allowed though... Add a Chaplain, and now you potentially have 40 Lightning Claw attacks on a charge, with rerolls for everything. This is the biggest, if not MOST IMPORTANT reason why I believe IC's aren't allowed to join in on HI assaults.

Rurouni Benshin wrote:
Imagine the possibilities if it was allowed though... Add a Chaplain, and now you potentially have 40 Lightning Claw attacks on a charge, with rerolls for everything. This is the biggest, if not MOST IMPORTANT reason why I believe IC's aren't allowed to join in on HI assaults.

You're not thinking big enough. Why add just one IC?

Add Dante: the vanguard don't scatter. This is huge.
Add a chaplain: now they're re-rolling misses. Pretty big.
Add a sanguinary priest: now they're S5 I5 and have FNP. Not too shabby.

Arschbombe wrote:

Rurouni Benshin wrote:
Imagine the possibilities if it was allowed though... Add a Chaplain, and now you potentially have 40 Lightning Claw attacks on a charge, with rerolls for everything. This is the biggest, if not MOST IMPORTANT reason why I believe IC's aren't allowed to join in on HI assaults.

You're not thinking big enough. Why add just one IC?

Add Dante: the vanguard don't scatter. This is huge.
Add a chaplain: now they're re-rolling misses. Pretty big.
Add a sanguinary priest: now they're S5 I5 and have FNP. Not too shabby.

I don't play Blood Angels, but yes, you are absolutely right. Hence, I think this is the biggest reason why IC's can't join VGV's in HI.

all right guys... If you don't wanna read the whole thread, at least read the title! Vanguards and IC ALREADY ON THE TABLE!!!
And the problem is:
-VGV deepstrike
-IC move next to the unit, automatically joining it
-Can the whole squad assault?

The IC is not deepstriking, and the doubt come because the intent of the authors seems (to me , i mean) to avoid that ICs could deepstrike and assault in the same phase (an IC can be truly too much powerful to allow something like that). And Also RAW are not very clear

Ramses explained his view in a clear way... But I still think that this thing is not so straightforward...

Well it IS straightforward: You USE HI to assault after deepstriking.

As soon as an IC joins you may not use HI

So if at ANY point before you assault an IC is joined to the unit you may not assault. Simples.

I was pretty sure I was answering your question with my comments, but if you're still confused, please allow me to elaborate.

Your Question:

punkow wrote:-VGV deepstrike
-IC move next to the unit, automatically joining it
-Can the whole squad assault?

My Answer: No.

Hope that clears things up.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Well it IS straightforward: You USE HI to assault after deepstriking.

As soon as an IC joins you may not use HI

So if at ANY point before you assault an IC is joined to the unit you may not assault. Simples.

^ This.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Well it IS straightforward: You USE HI to assault after deepstriking.

As soon as an IC joins you may not use HI

So if at ANY point before you assault an IC is joined to the unit you may not assault. Simples.

This is, as far as I'm concerned, not the proper order of events. Here is a relevant snippet:
"If a ... Vanguard Veteran Squad arrives from deep strike, the player can elect for the squad to perform a heroic intervention - declaring this before the deep strike dice are rolled. If he declares a Heroic intervention, the Vanguard Veteran Squad cannot shoot (or run) that turn but can assault ... cannot be used if an independent character has joined the Vanguard Veteran Squad."

The declaration of its use, is when you use the ability. Note the language, "If he declares ... can assault". It also has a qualifier: "cannot be used if an independent character has joined". When you declare its use (commonly called, "using an ability") the unit does not have an IC. Also note that the sentence uses the words "has joined". They don't say, "will join", or "if they're ever joined". "Has joined" is only relevant when the ability is used. Since ICs can join squads during deployment and be deep-struck with them, that's what they are talking about here.

Every argument I've heard is: "if they are ever joined by". However, that wording is never, ever used in this rule. "Has joined" is the only thing that we can focus on. Since when the ability is declared to be used, there is no IC attached, then no IC "has joined" that unit. An IC may join that unit later, as his rules allow him to do so, and Heroic Intervention does not say that they "lose the ability" when they are joined. None of those wordings exist in the rules, we must therefore believe that they can be joined by an IC after the arrive via deepstrike, and have declared the use of HI.

I do like (sarcastic) the "No, you're wrong" 'arguments'. Way to show off those debate skills, fellas!

BloodThirSTAR wrote:The IC cannot assault from deepstrike. That is the point.

No, the point was can the VVG assault after he moves into coherency with them. No one is advocating the joining during DeepStrike.

--------------------------
Okay, time for another episode of Bob and Fran's 40k theatre!

--curtain rises--
1. Bob's turn 3. The IC is already deployed on the table. Been there since Turn 1.
2. The VetVanguard DS in, with HI declared.
3. They land. Scatter dice is a 'hit.'
4. Bob continues his Movement phase and starts moving units. Eventually slides his Chaplain next to the VVG, "Uh, the Chap is attaching" -- note, he didn't say "join" maybe Fran won't notice -- "himself to the Vanguard."

Fran nods, looking worriedly at the VetVG and Chap and at her, close, too close, Crisis Suits.

Bob moves on to the Assault phase. Measures. "They're within six!" Moves a VetVG and the Chaplain in b2b with the Crisis Suits and ... Fran calls, "Shenanigans!"

Before the argument gets too heated, the TO wanders over. He listens to Bob's defense that the Chap 'attached' after the DS, and that it doesn't mess with HI. "HI isn't a UniversalSpecialRule, so that doesn't mean it gets canceled."

The TO nods, This is true.

Bob continues, " ... HI is its own special thingy." And therefore the VEtVG can assault using the Litanies of Hate, Bob concludes.

To counter, Fran grabs Bob's Codex:SM, opens it to page 62, puts her finger on the last sentence of HI's description. "This ability cannot be used if an independent character has joined the Vanguard Veteran Squad."

TO says, "Bob, did the Chaplain "JOIN" the Vanguard? In any way, shape or form? At any time, this Turn?"

Bob fidgets. "Uh, yeah, after the Deep Strike."

TO points to the codex. "Coulya read that?"

Bob reads. TO says, "Out loud, please." Bob recites the rule Fran's pointing to: "This ability cannot be used if an independent character has joined the Vanguard Veteran Squad."

"So," says the TO, "It makes no distinction about before or after, just a clear, if an IC joins ... Are we done here?" Bob's shoulders sag and Fran squeals: The Crisis Suits are all Helios bodyguards, Fusion Blasters and PlasmaRifles, with Target Arrays, and two attached HQs similarly armed.

As Bob puts the VetVG and Chaplain back, TO pats Bob on the shoulder, "Sorry dude, no assault. You should read the rules more carefully, or better yet, run something like this by me before the tourney starts."
------------------------------
--Close curtain--

Thank you, thank you! The Bob and Fran 40k theatre always enjoys your patronage! We'll be holding our hats out for donations in the lobby! Please take out your trash!

Rephistorch - except you are confusing the timing. HI is only USED when you want to assault, as it is the only thing allowing you to make your assault move.

Rephistorch wrote: However, that wording is never, ever used in this rule. "Has joined" is the only thing that we can focus on. Since when the ability is declared to be used, there is no IC attached, then no IC "has joined" that unit. An IC may join that unit later, as his rules allow him to do so, and Heroic Intervention does not say that they "lose the ability" when they are joined.

The orange text is where your argument is flawed. The rule says "cannot be used." Page 62's HI, last sentence: "This ability cannot be used if an independent character has joined the Vanguard Veteran Squad."

Rephistorch, stating that, "HI does not say that they "lose the ability" when they are joined" is the problem as both of these phrases: GW's "cannot be used" & your "lose the ability" -- mean the same thing. Yes, they do. I should know as I'm an English teacher. Ya know, teachin' grammar and verbs and sentence structures? I'm tellin' ya, both phrases mean the same thing. Dude. Duuu-uude.

No assault when the IC joins in the Movement phase for VetVGs.

Rephis, when do you use HI? Not when you declare, but when do you use it?

Brother Ramses wrote:Rephis, when do you use HI? Not when you declare, but when do you use it?

Declaring its use is the same as using it. Assaulting is not using the ability. Using the ability allows you to assault. It also disallows shooting, which means that it would have to be "used" at least some time before the shooting phase.

or the fun thing withe HI is if you put a Blod angel Presst withe inn 6" of the Squad and then the Squad Charges. they even get strengt 5 intetiv 5 Charge. withe out having the problom of Reroll chapline crap. good way of bending the rull to the beder then chapling crapy reroll

Rephistorch - except when you want to assault, the only thing allowing you is HI.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Rephistorch - except when you want to assault, the only thing allowing you is HI.

Exactly, you've already used heroic intervention, so the vanguard veteran squad can assault. The IC was already present on the table, and doesn't have any assault restrictions so he can assault. Ergo, the IC can join the squad, and both can assault together, as they are both allowed to assault.

If you're saying that the IC "cancels" Heroic Intervention, that opens up a whole new can of cheese.

Vanguard Veterans deep strike and declare the use of HI. Oh no! 6 Inch scatter away from the enemy, what will I do? Don't worry, there's an IC nearby! My IC joins the squad and HI is cancelled! Now they can shoot in the shooting phase!

Now there's no downside to using HI all the time. As long as there is an IC nearby, you're saying we can all safely "cancel" the HI if our scatter goes bad. Plasma pistols are going to become a lot more popular now.

Um, not quite. When you get to the assault phase you check to see if you can assault.

It is at this point that HI is "used" - as it is the only thing allowing you to assault after deepstriking.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Um, not quite. When you get to the assault phase you check to see if you can assault.

It is at this point that HI is "used" - as it is the only thing allowing you to assault after deepstriking.

That's not when it is "used". You have to declare it's use before deepstriking (aka using it). What about the shooting phase restrictions? A unit that used heroic intervention may not shoot in the shooting phase. Again, this indicates that the ability is used before the shooting phase. After using the ability, you can not shoot, but you are allowed to assault. When you assault, you're not using the ability, you're using the effects of the ability that have already taken place.

It's like if an eldar player uses doom. Whenever they reroll the results of failed wounds, they're not "using" doom, they're benefiting from the affects of the power that had been previously used.

I concur with Nos. He's got it right.

Actually Rephistorch has it right. the ability is triggered (to use a different term) when you go to deep strike. once you declare it, it opens options not usually available to deep strikers. like not being able to shoot during the shooting phase and being able to assault after deep strike. once you declare it, your using it. that's when your logic check comes in, "had an IC joined the squad?". nope, ok, now i can assault this turn, but not shoot.

so now you land, via DP beacon, next to chappy all by himself, he joins during movement. "Wait, do i still have HI?" Well, that's not really the right question. what you should be asking now is can i shoot? (we are in the shooting phase after all). the answer is no, because you used/declared a HI before deepstriking (when you had no IC). now its the assault phase. can i assault with the IC? well can the VV assault? is the chappy allowed to assault? yes because they used HI before the DS and the chappy was on the table at the start of the turn and did not run.

point is that HI is used before the DS and the quality checks are done while using it. its not an ongoing, persistent rule that gets its logic checked during each phase. its a one time declaration that unlocks other things, as well as prevents things. the HI itself is the ability, and its an ability used before deepstriking.

the sentence in the rule that says, "HI cannot be used if an IC has joined the unit" is only in effect when you use (declare, trigger, whatever) Heroic Intervention. and that, my friend, is when you deep strike.

i like the example of the Eldar Doom. is doom being used every time your re-rolling to wound? no or your librarian would get to "hood" it each time the unit was targeted with shooting.