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Actgually Doom is used, just not cast, each time you reroll wounds. Otherwise you have no permission to reroll wounds - Doom grants the permission.

Same for HI: if you try to assault you check:

1) I am a deepstriker, so I cannot assault this turn
2) This is overridden by HI being in play, so I can assault

If HI is not available to you when you come to assault the restriction on assaulting, which timing wise is ONLY checked at the assault phase, will be in place. Joining an IC to the unit disallows the use of HI, you USE HI in order to assault.

Not being able to run or shoot is a condition of HI allowing you to assault. This prevents someone from Deep Striking, scattering too far away to assault, and then deciding not to use HI and shoot or run.

That is the only reason HI is declared before rolling for scatter. You have to make the commitment to HI without knowing how bad or how good you will scatter and forgo shooting or running to allow yourself to assault after deep striking.

So declaring before scatter: done.
Not running or shooting: done
IC joins the unit: ABILITY CANNOT BE USED!
VGV cannot assault after deep striking.

Simply put what ability does HI confer?
So therefore if an IC has joined the unit, what ability cannot be used?

BRB FAQ
"Q. If an independent Character is joined to a
unit that is outflanking, when can he leave the
unit?
A. If an independent character is arriving from
reserve together with a unit, whether it is
outflanking or not, he cannot leave the unit
during the turn it arrives. He can, of course, leave
it as normal from the following turn."
If an IC is deepstriking in a DP, it can't leave that unit until the next turn.

stinkoman wrote:Actually Rephistorch has it right. the ability is triggered (to use a different term) when you go to deep strike. once you declare it, it opens options not usually available to deep strikers. like not being able to shoot during the shooting phase and being able to assault after deep strike. once you declare it, your using it. that's when your logic check comes in, "had an IC joined the squad?". nope, ok, now i can assault this turn, but not shoot.

But the IC will join the VetVG in this same Movement phase.

Ard that, according to the last sentence of the rule on page 62, cancels the ability "if an IC has joined the VetVanSquad". There's *nothing* there about the HI 'ending' once they hit the table. OR during the Movement phase, or before the assault or anything. If anything, the HI *has* to continue to ... 'exist'? Be 'in force' to allow the assault this turn.

Therefore, once the IC joins in ... HI gets canceled.

I typed up a few other replies to the rest of your points, stinkoman, considering and replying to each one. Well argued on your part, but still incorrect.

Then I thought, 'Wow, too much to wade through. Can I simplify this?'

Really, this is the crux of the matter: There's no permissive phrase or words in the (page 62) rule giving a time/turn/phase distinction/limitation. The limitation is "if an IC joins". It just flat out states, 'if an IC has joined'. As a player, you can't insert a distinction, given a game's permissive rules set. Like the TourneyOfficial points out (in my silly skit), there's no distinction in timing in the rule.

I think, until you can *find* that on page 62 where HI is listed or further errata from GW, a TO would rule as I have depicted.

Now just before I begin, I will say that I will never allow this to happen in a game I play, seeings how it looks to me as a TFG move.

For those of you who are arguing against the people that are saying it works, you have a simple problem that I thought you all, seeings how so many of you are "English Teachers", and supposed English Experts, and have in multiple threads pointed out that the english language agrees with you, missed the past tense structure to the part of the rule you are toting around and exclaiming makes it impossible. "If an IC HAS JOINED..." See that there, that is a past tense structure in a sentence.

So all this gak about it not having a time line is debunked. Just my two cents.

Noone has ignored it, at all. Has joined can be looked at at any point.

Not debunked at all. Try again.

Kapitalist-Pig wrote:Now just before I begin, I will say that I will never allow this to happen in a game I play, seeings how it looks to me as a TFG move.

Noted.

Kapitalist-Pig wrote:For those of you who are arguing against the people that are saying it works, you have a simple problem that I thought you all, seeings how so many of you are "English Teachers", and supposed English Experts, and have in multiple threads pointed out that the english language agrees with you, missed the past tense structure to the part of the rule you are toting around and exclaiming makes it impossible. "If an IC HAS JOINED..." See that there, that is a past tense structure in a sentence.

Yeah, I noticed the "has". It is simply the tense a rules writer would have to use when writing a game ... not a crippling blow to the argument.

Now, if Matt Ward has an English degree or Teaching Credential ...

Kapitalist-Pig wrote:So all this gak about it not having a time line is debunked. Just my two cents.

Not quite debunked, as there's no further *content* text regarding Movement phase, or Assault phase, etc. Phrasing changes in PastPerfect, Past or even Present tense aren't going to strike an Achilles Heel in what Nos1001 and I and others are saying. I'm guessing that the writers of the game don't put too much into had been, had, will join or any other grammar goofery. People who aren't in the 'grammar' field tend to stick with context/content, writing things like "Can't shoot in the Shooting phase" is more their concern, and far more clear for rules writing and understanding.

Nice shot though, KP.

Kapitalist-Pig wrote:Now just before I begin, I will say that I will never allow this to happen in a game I play, seeings how it looks to me as a TFG move.

For those of you who are arguing against the people that are saying it works, you have a simple problem that I thought you all, seeings how so many of you are "English Teachers", and supposed English Experts, and have in multiple threads pointed out that the english language agrees with you, missed the past tense structure to the part of the rule you are toting around and exclaiming makes it impossible. "If an IC HAS JOINED..." See that there, that is a past tense structure in a sentence.

So all this gak about it not having a time line is debunked. Just my two cents.

So in the situation that the OP describes, when the VGV with IC goes to assault after the VGV has deep struck and the IC joined, HAS an IC joined the unit and thus not allowing the ability to be used?

BloodThirSTAR wrote:Here is how I would play it based on my interpretation of the HI rule - if an IC joins the squad after they deepstrike onto the table they lose the special rule. To me this one is black and white. I'll just leave it at that.

I have to agree with this. Any other interpretation is simply trying to fudge a clear rule into enough of a grey area to break the rule to your advantage. I read the HI rule again before posting and it is crystal clear. Having to declare the HI before the Deepstrike is not the same as performing it.

I get distracted by the kick ass pick of the VV with LCs in the BA book on page 27 when i try to reread the rules for HI. i think im going to convert that guy.

anyway. a little dialogue and then some arguments.

T.O. (in response to OP): when did you use your HI ABILITY?
OP: when i declared it, before i rolled my scatter dice, like the rule says.
TO: did you have an IC attached when you used your ability? Because the rules say that "This ability cannot be used if an independent character joined the VV squad."
OP: Nope.
TO: Okay, carry on then.


look at it like a programmer would. I think there is an issue with whether the rule is something ongoing (therefore constantly checking condition) or something that is used at one time (therefore condition checked once) to grant/deny other abilities (like assaulting).

i tend to lean toward the latter since you declare the ability (to me, that's using the ability) before rolling the scatter dice. its pretty simple if you can differentiate it from an ongoing ability or a one time ability. You only need to check conditions of the rule/ability, and the "IC has joined" is a condition of the ability. by successfully meeting the conditions of the rule/ability, you are now denied the ability to shoot, but granted the ability to assault. whatever happens after the HI ability is used is moot.

seems pretty simple to me. i wouldn't even call this a loophole or a broken mechanic. i believe the RAI was to stop ICs from joining the squad before the DS. which is what is does. there are other things you can do to buff the VV when they land, like having a SP within 6 inches so they get FC. which is what i like to do. very rarely will i have a chappy all alone that could join the VV to even make use of it the way the OP said. if someone did it to me, i would say ok, it makes sense and kind of cool in a fluffy, cinematic way.

I couldn't disagree with that anymore. I would have the completely opposite reaction if my opponent tried to pull that. I would be interested to hear what Gwar! has to say on subject, not that I would listen if he disagreed with me...

I think after reading more of the actual rule, page 62 in C:SM and C:BA pg 27, they both have the same sentence that disqualifies HI with a IC attached at the time the HI was declared. Let me explain why, First it says that,"This ability cannot be used if an IC has joined..." blah blah blah. Now here comes the part about sentence structure I was speaking about. How do you use HI? Well it explains how you use it. You delcare after the squad has arrived from reserves, but before deploying by deepstrike that it will use HI. Please note, this ability cannot be used, or in other words it cannot be delcared. If it has already been declared the point for checking if an IC has joined is checked then. (This particular part all comes down to how you read the rule) Thus, those who say if an IC joins at any point makes the VGV squad not able to assault. While others say that it has been qualified when you delcare and check for it only then.

Now I think that to go a little further, if the OP has DP'd his VGV squad declaring a HI and attempts to attach an IC, he has run into a situation where the clear intent of the games designers, and codex writers, has been disregarded. Thus making it a TFG situation, but seeings how I think this is purely educational, I will give him the benifit of the doubt.

Again, please note that I think that the game designers (GW) have made it abundantly clear that you should not attempt to do this.

You still ignore that, when you come to make your assault, you are a unit that has deepstruck

In order to assault, you have to use HI. You USE HI to assault. Fairly straightforward.

So you check to ensure that HI is still valid. It is NOT valid, so you cannot assault.

nosferatu1001 wrote:You still ignore that, when you come to make your assault, you are a unit that has deepstruck

In order to assault, you have to use HI. You USE HI to assault. Fairly straightforward.

So you check to ensure that HI is still valid. It is NOT valid, so you cannot assault.

That's actually not quite right.

In order to assault from deep strike, you must have "elect[ed] to perform a heroic intervention - [having] declar[ed] this before the deep strike scatter dice [were] rolled." Of course, you can not elect to perform this action if "an Independent Character has joined". When do you elect to "perform" (aka use) HI? Before the deep strike scatter dice are rolled. The conditional check takes place before the deep strike, not at each phase thereafter.

Now, if heroic intervention was performed, the unit can not shoot, but may assault during deep strike. Now when you get to the shooting phase, and the assault phase, you check to see if the ability WAS used before the deep strike occurred. Was it? Yes. The unit can still assault.

Logic-flow:
VVS is about to elect to use HI.
Does the VVS have an IC attached? No. The VVS therefore elects to perform the HI.
An IC moves into contact after the scatter.
Assault phase: VVS wants to assault.
-Deep strike rules say they may not
-However, the HI rules say that if the unit has elected to perform a HI it may.

Had the unit elected to perform a HI? Yes they had, so they may assault. Period. You don't check if they can "use" the ability, as they have already elected to perform ("use") it. They passed the check earlier and that's all that matters.

I have to disagree. This has been covered in-depth so no need to rehash it any further now.

Gwar! We need your aid! http://xkcd.com/386/

look...I play tau and necrons...and I'm a


Automatically Appended Next Post:
look...I play necrons and tau, and I'm a VERY technical person...I like to fin loopholes and breakdowns amongst coomunications and flip stuf....I was talking to captain killjoy, and we both were looking at the rule. It says that a VVS can declare a HI, which allows them to give up there shootin or running for the turn that they arrive. It also says that it cannot be used if an IC has joined. So, we both came to the conclusion that since it HI was declared (used) before an IC joined the unit, it still goes through. period. (I want it noted that it says HAS, meaning before they had hit the table. not check every second of the game. It specifies specifically before the Deepstrike, not after......after wards is far game) (I've seen HQ'z for tau seperate from a crisis team during the assault phasze, because they get to move)

Rephistorch wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:You still ignore that, when you come to make your assault, you are a unit that has deepstruck

In order to assault, you have to use HI. You USE HI to assault. Fairly straightforward.

So you check to ensure that HI is still valid. It is NOT valid, so you cannot assault.

That's actually not quite right.

In order to assault from deep strike, you must have "elect[ed] to perform a heroic intervention - [having] declar[ed] this before the deep strike scatter dice [were] rolled." Of course, you can not elect to perform this action if "an Independent Character has joined". When do you elect to "perform" (aka use) HI? Before the deep strike scatter dice are rolled. The conditional check takes place before the deep strike, not at each phase thereafter.

Now, if heroic intervention was performed, the unit can not shoot, but may assault during deep strike. Now when you get to the shooting phase, and the assault phase, you check to see if the ability WAS used before the deep strike occurred. Was it? Yes. The unit can still assault.

Logic-flow:
VVS is about to elect to use HI.
Does the VVS have an IC attached? No. The VVS therefore elects to perform the HI.
An IC moves into contact after the scatter.
Assault phase: VVS wants to assault.
-Deep strike rules say they may not
-However, the HI rules say that if the unit has elected to perform a HI it may.

Had the unit elected to perform a HI? Yes they had, so they may assault. Period. You don't check if they can "use" the ability, as they have already elected to perform ("use") it. They passed the check earlier and that's all that matters.

Seriously Rephis, I can't even stand to read your reasoning anymore. You came to a conclusion and are now reading the rules to only fit said conclusion.

For a unit of VGV to assault after deep striking, conditions must be met:

1. DECLARE before rolling deep strike dice that they will perform HI:
2. Not run or shoot.
3. Not have an IC attached.

Now your soapbox will continue to be that declaring is using so therefore the check for and IC is made then. However this is not only grammatically wrong but also wrong in game terms.

Grammer 101:

de·clare (d -klâr ) v. de·clared, de·clar·ing, de·clares v.tr. 1. To make known formally or officially. See Synonyms at announce. 2. To state emphatically or authoritatively; affirm. 3. To reveal or make manifest; show. 4. To make a full statement of (dutiable goods, for example). 5. Games To designate (a trump suit or no-trump) with the final bid of a hand in bridge. v.intr. 1. To make a declaration. 2. To proclaim one's support, choice, opinion, or resolution. Idiom: declare war 1. To state formally the intention to carry on armed hostilities against. 2. To state one's intent to suppress or eradicate: declared war on drug dealing in the neighborhood.

In game terms:

Note Assault Phase Summary, pg 33

Step 1

Pick a unit.

DECLARE which enemy unit it is going to assault.

Move the assaulting unit.

Multiple Combats, pg 41

Attacking

Declare how they are spliting their attacks immediately before rolling to hit.

And of course the HI issue currently being discussed.

Now despite everything to the contrary proving your definition of declaring is wrong, not only grammatically and in game terms, I am sure you will maintain your desire to circumvent the rules aka cheat. Good luck with that.

Done with this thread.

BrotherRamses wrote:
Seriously Rephis, I can't even stand to read your reasoning anymore. You came to a conclusion and are now reading the rules to only fit said conclusion.

Come on now, I'm not trying to attack you or anything like that. Just trying to have a good rules discussion.

Also, I didn't come to this conclusion before I read the rules. I thought the OP's question was very interesting, so I read the rules pertaining to heroic intervention and then made my decision.

BrotherRamses wrote:
For a unit of VGV to assault after deep striking, conditions must be met:

1. DECLARE before rolling deep strike dice that they will perform HI:
2. Not run or shoot.
3. Not have an IC attached.

1. Declare that you are choosing to perform (present tense) a heroic intervention.
2. After checking to see if this is a valid move (jump packs, deep striking, no IC) you finish your deep strike.
3. Squad CANNOT shoot or run (it isn't an option, or even a condition to check, this is the result of an action that was performed.)
4. Squad CAN assault (again, this is the result of an action. This isn't "using" the ability)

BrotherRamses wrote:
Now your soapbox will continue to be that declaring is using so therefore the check for and IC is made then. However this is not only grammatically wrong but also wrong in game terms.

Grammer 101:

de·clare (d -klâr ) v. de·clared, de·clar·ing, de·clares v.tr. 1. To make known formally or officially. See Synonyms at announce. 2. To state emphatically or authoritatively; affirm. 3. To reveal or make manifest; show. 4. To make a full statement of (dutiable goods, for example). 5. Games To designate (a trump suit or no-trump) with the final bid of a hand in bridge. v.intr. 1. To make a declaration. 2. To proclaim one's support, choice, opinion, or resolution. Idiom: declare war 1. To state formally the intention to carry on armed hostilities against. 2. To state one's intent to suppress or eradicate: declared war on drug dealing in the neighborhood.

Grammar 101, right back at you:
Declare: To make known formally or officially.
Elect: Choose (in this instance)
Perform: Carry out; Do
Do: Carry out; Perform; Execute
Carry out: Complete; Accomplish

Sentence: "If a jump pack equipped VVS arrives from Reserve by Deep Strike, the player can elect for the squad to perform a heroic intervention - declaring this before the deep strike scatter dice are rolled."

Equivalent sentence as per the English language: ".. arrive from Reserve by Deep Strike, the player can [elect or choose] for the squad to [carry out, do, perform, execute, complete, or accomplish] a heroic intervention - [making this known formally or officially] before the scatter dice are rolled."

Using grammar and simple logic, it's easy to see that the ability is actually USED before the deep strike occurs, therefore that's when it's conditions are checked. Are they jump pack equipped? Yes. Any ICs in the squad? No. They can perform the heroic intervention.

BrotherRamses wrote:
Now despite everything to the contrary proving your definition of declaring is wrong, not only grammatically and in game terms, I am sure you will maintain your desire to circumvent the rules aka cheat. Good luck with that.

First of all, you keep focusing on the word declaring, when there is a gigantic "perform" a few words prior in the same sentence. How can you argue that performing the ability is not the same as using the ability?

I'm not trying to cheat. I don't even think there would ever be many situations like this in the first place. This wasn't my question, and I don't plan on using it (unless all of the stars are aligned and the god's of chaos grant me a specific scenario in which this would even be useful). I'm not trying to base my lists around this or anything like that.

BrotherRamses wrote:
Done with this thread.

Well, that's unfortunate.

An IC already on the table can join the Vanguard and still assault.

The IC does not remove the capability of the unit to assault.

What the IC does do is prevent the ability to perform the Heroic Intervention in the first place.

This means that the IC would have had to be joined to the unit before deep striking and prevented the unit from using the Heroic Intervention ability.

I think we should go back to the Doom analogy and it should clear this up.

One of the conditions for using doom is that the Farseer has to be within 24" of the target unit.

Say the Farseer targets a unit then moves more than 24" away or is killed by a stray blast shot or otherwise removed from that 24" range. Do you still get re-rolls to wound against that unit?

Of course you do because the range check is made when you use the ability not when an effect of the ability gives you a bonus. Same here.

The English is pretty cut and dried and Rephistorch is bang on.

Except in order to Assault after Deepstriking you MUST have a special rule allowing you to do so.

You check that the rule is active, note the conditions on it, and reaslise HI has been neutralised.

Doom is irrelevant, as the requirements are time limited. Not the case here.

mmmm... I'm responsible for this madness...
So I would like to say what I will do:
-I'll ask my opponent what he thinks about this rule in friendly games
-I'll avoid to use such a tactic in tournaments
-eventually, ask my opponent, or the tournament organizer to make an "exception" to allow IC to not join the unit allowing them to assault separately in the few cases in which is impossible to keep the units 2" away...(it seems reasonable to me)
I personally think the intention of GD was to avoid deepstriking IC assaulting in the same round, but all the objections made to my initial idea are pretty reasonable...
Thanks for helping guys

I'm with Rephistorch all the way here...it just makes too much sense for you to deny it.....common sense (which isn't all that common) dictates that if it said you use/activate/trigger the ability BEFORE the scatter dice are rolled, then that's when the ability is used. They give up shooting/running. They get assault. period. if conditions are met when the ability is used, then that's that.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Except in order to Assault after Deepstriking you MUST have a special rule allowing you to do so.

You check that the rule is active, note the conditions on it, and reaslise HI has been neutralised.

Doom is irrelevant, as the requirements are time limited. Not the case here.

The rule is active, because it was used at the beginning of the turn. You don't recheck the conditions every time you check if it's active.

Except you do becaue you are making an assault, and you have to see if you can assault - which requires HI to be used.

You got permission to assault after your Deep Strike when you declared the use of Heroic Intervention.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Except you do becaue you are making an assault, and you have to see if you can assault - which requires HI to be used.

See the post below yours. You were given permission when you choose to perform the HI. Do I have permission to assault? Deep strike says no, but HI was used and because it was used, it says that I can. So yes, I do.

Legality aside, why does it really matter?
If the vanguards and IC charge in joined as one unit, then once in assault they'll be treated as separate anyway.
If they charge apart, then the opponent can pick out the IC with shooting should the squad wipe out its target, but vanguard are fairly glass cannon for meq anyway, so if your opponent wants to kill the IC, he will be able to, vanguards or not.
The only time it would really pop up would be if your opponent uses it to gain an extra 2" of charge range for his IC.

The IC will be part of the unit once the assault is finished, providing him with protection from shooting. He'll also convey any rules to the Vanguard Veterans (like a Chaplain's rerolls from Litanies of Hate/Blood).