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All WoW fans out there will know it, Cataclysm is out in 3 days and I so can't wait.
There are loads of new things you get to do, at one point in Hillsbrad Foothills you get a quest that makes you do things from Plants Vs. Zombies, and all of it looks fantastic!

I want people to say what they thing is the best thing coming from it and why they love it.

Now I have only been on it for a year, and my highest level char is a Blood Elf Death Knight lvl.74 but I still love the game.
To all those who love it too please reply and tell me about all the great things coming from Cataclysm!

I know a great thing coming!

jk I hate WoW

I've not played WoW since before Burning Crusade.

Now, Cataclysm is calling me back. Like a heroin addict, I'm going to pick it up when I can afford it.

Curse you, Blizzard. Bringing Werewolves into WoW.

I think it looks pretty good. I didn't play much WotLK, but this has caught my interest far more.

I have heard that the Worgen don't actually use mounts, instead they get something called running wild, where they basically get down on all fours and start running at an amazing speed. Looks awesome

I'm 50-50 over it tbh, I get the idea, but it does look kinda odd. It won't stop me playing one mind, but I suspect I'll be rep grinding Night Elves or Humans for a different mount with mine.

As to the game improvements, I played Beta, completed Mount Hyjal, looked into Vashj'ir and Uldum and to be frank I can't wait till 11pm tomorrow night to start leveling my main for real.

The changes to the world in general have been amazing, I'm flying through zones with newer alts now, and it all seems so much more fun.
A lot less.. go collect 10 livers, kill 20 gnolls etc, and more Mind control this Ettin to lift a rock off the town forman, or put rokkit packs on these chickens which will bring them automatically to the stew pot.

The guild stuff is the biggest and fave thing for this expansion due to the social aspect of the guild I belong to. A load of us met up in London two weeks ago, so we've moved beyond a number of names on a screen. It's just going to be fun with all those extras.

So yeah, Cata by the looks of it is going to be awesome.

Can't wait. Spent a lot of time in Beta and was nothing but massively impressed. While I stopped at 82 to not ruin it for myself when I went live, I did a lot of lowbie testing on worgen and gobbos and both are an absolute joy to play.

With the shattering already after hitting most of the changes are live so cata release itself is more about the 80+ content I held out on, so it is going to be really fun for me to be on Nightshift all of jan and feb to be able to level without the massive huddle of the rest of the players

I am definately gonna lvl a Worgen Hunter as soon as I get it, and I have pre-ordered it , so I will get it real soon

I'd like to see the new stuff, but I'm gonna skip it :( burned out on WOW long ago and I absolutely hate raiding, and once you max your level raiding is all you have left.

Yeah I can understand that, tbh if not for my Guild I'd have probably burned out a while back as well.

As you can see by the alts I have, raiding is not my first thought when WoW comes to mind.

Hehe, just like levelling alts, occasional gear collecting, but mainly hanging out chatting with the guild while doing odd stuff, like collecting pets or achievements.

I'm very cool towards WoW at this point.

I will pick up catac in a month or so, but only because swtor was delayed.

I'm miiiiiiilldly curious about it. I might start up next year some time. I'm mostly impressed with it from a game design perspective- it's what they need to do to keep the game alive, I reckon.
I played WoW before and I was put off by the grindy quests, so I'd be quite happy if those were cut down.

Grindy quests are still there, the difference is that instead of "Get 40 of these hearts that only 2% of creatures will have and you will die every 3 minutes and need to sit down and drink every 30 seconds" its " Get me 10 of these berries those monkeys will poop our if you hit them hard enough" and you go harrass chimps while laughing.

They have kept the same game system, but made it a lot more fun to play while doing so. That and the phasing system means if you do something in a quest, it can affect the game world you see. The gobbo starting zone has you use a Goblin Inc Town in a Box.tm to create a full goblin village full of npcs and quest givers on an little empty patch of ground by igniting it

Stuff like that freshes the whole experience.

I dislike how they've removed ZG, Horde have the cooler mounts and ZG was the only way to get a Raptor. Alliance cannot get Wolves or Raptors, and we can only get Kodos by being lucky during Brewfest.

I know that with Archaeology you can get a fossilised raptor, but it's just bones.

Anywho, Cata better bring some class reviews with it. I'm sick to death of my Retri paladin going from OP and hated by every other class, to being UP and becoming the laughing stock of WoW with every patch. After 2 expansions, you'd expect that they'd know what they're doing with pallies...

Similarly with fury warriors. Give us abilities that cost 20-30 Rage per use and then give us 1 way of generating extra rage outside of white damage (2 if you count the meagre amount (4-6 rage) supplied by a glyph); clever.

I've left aesthetics and quests/dungeons to the sidelines because none of that matters if you're left at the end of it all without anything else to do.

If this is anything like TBC end-game, then my pally is going to refused by every raiding guild on the server unless he switches to a tank or healer (not going to happen; I don't want to be forced into a role I don't like playing), either that or he'll just be a substitute/last resort.

My warrior might fare better, considering that she's Fury/Arms, and so I can just PvP as Arms until Fury is a bit better.

Content is nice, but only when the classes you play are ableto experience it.

Fury Warriors have no reason to complain, nor do Rets. Not about damage or public opinion.

I've played a Rogue since launch. Try being hated, even when your class is dead last or so ridden with bugs that were reported months prior and claimed to be "Working as Intended"(Mutilate/Dirty Deeds bugs for Naxxramas...Ulduar...ToC...)

Anyways. Raptor mount is coming back, just at a time "To Be Announced". They're likely to add a questline for it with the Trolls that you see in both the Alliance and Horde camps.

I got nothing bad to say about wow. But im over it. I just cant go back. Just... cant...

Got two level 70's and they can stay that way.

Think Ill wait for Rift to come out instead.

Another reason I don't wanna go back to wow is it's a time sucker I have time for 1 hobby and right now I want that to be painting minis. If I go back to wow, I'll have a 1" layer of dust on my painting desk a year from now :(

I just want to say something about the whole "Alliance can't get Raptor mounts anymore" kinda thing. I am not certain about it but it could be something so that Alliance CAN get a Raptor.

Well a few months ago I was running around Un'Goro crater when I found a troll quest giver and I'm pretty sure he was'nt PvP or anything. Well basically he gave me some quests that led to me getting a little baby raptor for a companion. Every day that Raptor gave me a daily that is asking like for food or something, and if you did 20 of those dailies he would grow up and become a Venomhide Raptor mount. Now I'm not sure if they have removed it or not in Cata as I am not sure what is happening to Un'Goro's area, but if that quest giver is still there Allies could still get thier Raptor mount.

Now don't blame me if I am wrong as it is just a suggestion but it could be a solution for the Raptor mount problem.

I am pretty stoked for this expansion.

At first I was of the mindset that WoW should be finished now that the Lich King has fallen, but I have to say, just seeing the build up in the patches before Cata and such I am both super impressed and excited.

It feels like a new game and Blizz has done a good job of making it not just the same old. Whether it is leveling an alt (the new quests are very different and you get to see quests that are telling the story of Azeroth post the fall of the lich king) or leveling or main, I think many people will be pleasantly surprised.

So I decided to try WoW a while ago, and as much as running round playing a zombie was fun, I did get bored.

Is the new stuff more zombie friendly :?

Well, now you can be a zombie of any race, and you get to the start the game by being an evil SOB and slaughtering peasants that beg for their lives. Other than that though, its just eating various things in various places in increasingly garish gear.

Shas'ui T'au Kais wrote:I just want to say something about the whole "Alliance can't get Raptor mounts anymore" kinda thing. I am not certain about it but it could be something so that Alliance CAN get a Raptor.

Well a few months ago I was running around Un'Goro crater when I found a troll quest giver and I'm pretty sure he was'nt PvP or anything. Well basically he gave me some quests that led to me getting a little baby raptor for a companion. Every day that Raptor gave me a daily that is asking like for food or something, and if you did 20 of those dailies he would grow up and become a Venomhide Raptor mount. Now I'm not sure if they have removed it or not in Cata as I am not sure what is happening to Un'Goro's area, but if that quest giver is still there Allies could still get thier Raptor mount.

Now don't blame me if I am wrong as it is just a suggestion but it could be a solution for the Raptor mount problem.

He only responds to the Horde, unless they altered it.

If you faction-change with the Venomhide Ravasaur, it's converted to the Winterspring Frostsaber.

Looking forward to it, and the sundering has made given some new sweet stuff to look at but I'm bummed that my pre-order didnt turn up in the post the day before, like the last 2 have, so I may return it when it arrives and take the dog for a walk at about midnight...

Kanluwen wrote:Fury Warriors have no reason to complain, nor do Rets. Not about damage or public opinion.

I've played a Rogue since launch. Try being hated, even when your class is dead last or so ridden with bugs that were reported months prior and claimed to be "Working as Intended"(Mutilate/Dirty Deeds bugs for Naxxramas...Ulduar...ToC...)

Anyways. Raptor mount is coming back, just at a time "To Be Announced". They're likely to add a questline for it with the Trolls that you see in both the Alliance and Horde camps.

I beg to differ on both damage and public opinion. I've played a Retri Paladin since mid-TBC, and I distinctly remember being laughed at for being DPS, being refused groups because I was retri, and being told to go and reset my talents or I don't get into the group; I also remember doing battlegrounds and gaining lucky kills through pure assists; any other time I was kited around like a dog on a leash or beaten to a pulp.

That all changed with the WotlK patches. Suddenly, Retri was good again, and you know what? The mages that had been kiting us in PvP, the Rogues that had been having so much fun taking us from behind, the warlocks that just had to spam curses and spells and all the others were in uproar. I only had to glance at the forums to find hate threads. Suddenly, retri was a faceroll class for losers, people looking for easy wins and people who couldn't play. I got dungeon groups and killed stuff in BGs, but all I got back was abuse about how it took no skill.

Then with the Cata preperation patch, Retri took a nerf to the face. Our rotation is laughable; it's Crusader Strike whenever it comes off CD, Judgement whenever it comes off CD, Templars Verdict when we finally reach 3 holy power (after using Zealotry so we don't spend another 12 seconds doing bugger all damage), Exorcism when Art of War procs, Holy Wrath because it's damage and Consecration because again, it's damage. So much of our rotation relies on the bad cooldown durations of spells combined with white damage that on anything but bosses, we don't usually get many hits in. There's no point even trying for 3 points of holy power on trash, because they're usually dead by the time you get it.

Divine Storm is useless now it shares a CD with Crusader Strike, and there are no DPSing seals, the closest we get is SoT.

Protection deals better DPS than us, they even get a talent that increases the damage of Crusader Strike and Judgement by 50%/100% (what does protection need a damage talent for!?) and the crit strike chance of Holy Wrath and Hammer of Wrath by 15%/30% (wait, why do they need extra crit now too?). What do we get? A talent that increases the damage we do by 2%/4% per charge of holy power wasted on healing someone, which is usually the job of a Holy paladin...

So yes, Rets do have a reason to complain. Blizzard need to get off their arse and fix the damn class; we're either Underpowered and a laughing stock, or Overpowered and hated by every non-paladin class.

Fury warriors have a lot less to complain about other than the nerf they took in the last patch that decreased the damage of their rotation by 17%, whereas Warlocks only took a 12% knock (last time I checked, Warlocks were and still are an all-around powerful class, but what did Fury have that warranted such a nerf?)

I'm sorry to turn the thread into a bit of a rant, but when you can look at a Retribution paladin and say they're fine, reality checks need to be doled out.

Played EQ, AO, UO, City of Hero's, City of Villians, and was a hardcore WoW raider for 4 years.

There ain't NOTHING left of the RPG in MMORPG. Its just another PVP slugfest with items accesible to anyone that invests enough raw time. While thats great for casual play, its the complete opposite of the draw that MMORPG's always had for me. I also really hated World of Spreadsheetcraft and World of Latencycraft.

WoW killed the RPG badly. Its WFB for little kids.


Frankly I find LoL to have superior PVP to WoW without having to sit around in a chatroom for 3 hours just to find competent partners.

I recently wandered away from WoW after playing it almost non-stop for a year and a half (yay for long term illness- a genuine reason to do nothing but play games.) Unfortunately, while I had a great time levelling, the entire thing was killed for me by the end-game players. Not the content (fairly indifferent to the end raids, to be honest) but the actual players. I have never met so many hysterical, angry, elitist people in my entire life, and being unable to actually raid without having to listen to these idiots, I called it quits and left. I play games to have fun, so made no sense to keep at it if I wasn't actually having fun.

Now, I am seriously considering picking up Cata after Christmas. I like the changes I have seen, and I kind of want to give a goblin a go. I am in no hurry, though, because I know that once I reach end-game I will run into the same problem, and hence will stop playing again.

Avatar 720 wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:Fury Warriors have no reason to complain, nor do Rets. Not about damage or public opinion.

I've played a Rogue since launch. Try being hated, even when your class is dead last or so ridden with bugs that were reported months prior and claimed to be "Working as Intended"(Mutilate/Dirty Deeds bugs for Naxxramas...Ulduar...ToC...)

Anyways. Raptor mount is coming back, just at a time "To Be Announced". They're likely to add a questline for it with the Trolls that you see in both the Alliance and Horde camps.

I beg to differ on both damage and public opinion. I've played a Retri Paladin since mid-TBC, and I distinctly remember being laughed at for being DPS, being refused groups because I was retri, and being told to go and reset my talents or I don't get into the group; I also remember doing battlegrounds and gaining lucky kills through pure assists; any other time I was kited around like a dog on a leash or beaten to a pulp.

Then you weren't using your talents properly. Rets had, next to Warriors, the highest uptime possible on targets. Hand of Freedom made sure of that, as did their bubble. Or do you forget that they had to install a 50% damage debuff onto Retadins for their bubble for a reason?

That all changed with the WotlK patches. Suddenly, Retri was good again, and you know what? The mages that had been kiting us in PvP, the Rogues that had been having so much fun taking us from behind, the warlocks that just had to spam curses and spells and all the others were in uproar. I only had to glance at the forums to find hate threads. Suddenly, retri was a faceroll class for losers, people looking for easy wins and people who couldn't play. I got dungeon groups and killed stuff in BGs, but all I got back was abuse about how it took no skill.

Because it didn't take skill to do well as a Retadin in instances or PvP both. I have a Paladin. With the beginning of Wrath, my damage levels were through the roof and easily outdoing my Rogue and Hunter(who were tiers of gear ahead of my Paladin).
All I had to do was to watch for some of my procs to come up, then I could completely devastate anyone who was stupid enough to come towards me. There's a reason Seal of Command was being called "SealofCasino", y'know.
That's not skill. That's being overpowered, but held in a sort of "check" by procs.

Then with the Cata preperation patch, Retri took a nerf to the face. Our rotation is laughable; it's Crusader Strike whenever it comes off CD, Judgement whenever it comes off CD, Templars Verdict when we finally reach 3 holy power (after using Zealotry so we don't spend another 12 seconds doing bugger all damage), Exorcism when Art of War procs, Holy Wrath because it's damage and Consecration because again, it's damage. So much of our rotation relies on the bad cooldown durations of spells combined with white damage that on anything but bosses, we don't usually get many hits in. There's no point even trying for 3 points of holy power on trash, because they're usually dead by the time you get it.

Welcome to being a class where you actually have to think before using cooldowns to manage your damage? I'd feel bad for you, but I've been playing a Rogue since pre-BC. I've had to sit through points in time where Mutilate and my other "real" skills did such little damage, that I was better off using Shiv to generate Combo Points, and then I might as well not Rupture because it was doing such terrible damage I'm better off just putting up Slice+Dice/Envenoming.

You will not be saying the same thing about trash in Cata, since every new expansion brings about a paradigm shift from the previous content which you can just AOE through due to how well your party is geared. CCs are going to be back in session, and things will take more than a second or two to burn through.

Divine Storm is useless now it shares a CD with Crusader Strike, and there are no DPSing seals, the closest we get is SoT.

Erm, boohoo?
Divine Storm being made "useless" is to prevent the macros that were being used in the most recent beta build where people were tying the two together and getting past the refresh timer on both.
As for Seal of Truth...it's great. Do you know why?
It stacks Holy damage on your target. Which is completely unaffected by any resistance(since you can't actually get a Holy Resistance after all) and also completely unaffected by armor.

Protection deals better DPS than us, they even get a talent that increases the damage of Crusader Strike and Judgement by 50%/100% (what does protection need a damage talent for!?) and the crit strike chance of Holy Wrath and Hammer of Wrath by 15%/30% (wait, why do they need extra crit now too?). What do we get? A talent that increases the damage we do by 2%/4% per charge of holy power wasted on healing someone, which is usually the job of a Holy paladin...

I'm assuming you don't tank. If you did, you'd know why they have these changes.
1) Crusader Strike is the main "single-target" ability for Protadins right now. That's why it was made baseline, not just for Retadins. Hammer of the Righteous is, for all intents and purposes, dead to Protadins except in large AoE pulls where it deals absurd damage.
2) Holy Wrath critting is a "big deal" for a Protadin who's tanking an AoE group. Crits=more threat. Hammer of Wrath critting is to make sure that when a Protadin uses it, their target goes down. It's not reachable by Ret for the simple reason of the Ret "must have" talent that reduces the CD on Avenging Wrath and allows for HoW to be used within Avenging Wrath.
Also, "Selfless Healer" has a very good reason to be in the Ret tree.
Because of your Mastery. The Mastery procs an absurdly amount for my Paladin, and I was able to keep Selfless Healer up pretty much throughout the entirety of most boss fights in Cataclysm's beta.

So yes, Rets do have a reason to complain. Blizzard need to get off their arse and fix the damn class; we're either Underpowered and a laughing stock, or Overpowered and hated by every non-paladin class.

Again...
Welcome to WoW?
I get hate from my own faction just for being a Rogue.
And also, Blizz doesn't "need" to fix anything. At 85, you're fine. It's only really at 80, without gear that features Mastery on it that the issue exists.

Fury warriors have a lot less to complain about other than the nerf they took in the last patch that decreased the damage of their rotation by 17%, whereas Warlocks only took a 12% knock (last time I checked, Warlocks were and still are an all-around powerful class, but what did Fury have that warranted such a nerf?)

Warlocks took a 12% knock based on the damage they were dealing at level 80.
Fury Warriors took it based upon how they were interacting with Colossus Strike at 85.

I'm sorry to turn the thread into a bit of a rant, but when you can look at a Retribution paladin and say they're fine, reality checks need to be doled out.

Because really, performing better than a pure class(by all accounts from Cata's beta) whose only role is damage...

Obviously, that's not fine

Kanluwen wrote:

Avatar 720 wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:Fury Warriors have no reason to complain, nor do Rets. Not about damage or public opinion.

I've played a Rogue since launch. Try being hated, even when your class is dead last or so ridden with bugs that were reported months prior and claimed to be "Working as Intended"(Mutilate/Dirty Deeds bugs for Naxxramas...Ulduar...ToC...)

Anyways. Raptor mount is coming back, just at a time "To Be Announced". They're likely to add a questline for it with the Trolls that you see in both the Alliance and Horde camps.

I beg to differ on both damage and public opinion. I've played a Retri Paladin since mid-TBC, and I distinctly remember being laughed at for being DPS, being refused groups because I was retri, and being told to go and reset my talents or I don't get into the group; I also remember doing battlegrounds and gaining lucky kills through pure assists; any other time I was kited around like a dog on a leash or beaten to a pulp.

Then you weren't using your talents properly. Rets had, next to Warriors, the highest uptime possible on targets. Hand of Freedom made sure of that, as did their bubble. Or do you forget that they had to install a 50% damage debuff onto Retadins for their bubble for a reason?

That all changed with the WotlK patches. Suddenly, Retri was good again, and you know what? The mages that had been kiting us in PvP, the Rogues that had been having so much fun taking us from behind, the warlocks that just had to spam curses and spells and all the others were in uproar. I only had to glance at the forums to find hate threads. Suddenly, retri was a faceroll class for losers, people looking for easy wins and people who couldn't play. I got dungeon groups and killed stuff in BGs, but all I got back was abuse about how it took no skill.

Because it didn't take skill to do well as a Retadin in instances or PvP both. I have a Paladin. With the beginning of Wrath, my damage levels were through the roof and easily outdoing my Rogue and Hunter(who were tiers of gear ahead of my Paladin).
All I had to do was to watch for some of my procs to come up, then I could completely devastate anyone who was stupid enough to come towards me. There's a reason Seal of Command was being called "SealofCasino", y'know.
That's not skill. That's being overpowered, but held in a sort of "check" by procs.

Then with the Cata preperation patch, Retri took a nerf to the face. Our rotation is laughable; it's Crusader Strike whenever it comes off CD, Judgement whenever it comes off CD, Templars Verdict when we finally reach 3 holy power (after using Zealotry so we don't spend another 12 seconds doing bugger all damage), Exorcism when Art of War procs, Holy Wrath because it's damage and Consecration because again, it's damage. So much of our rotation relies on the bad cooldown durations of spells combined with white damage that on anything but bosses, we don't usually get many hits in. There's no point even trying for 3 points of holy power on trash, because they're usually dead by the time you get it.

Welcome to being a class where you actually have to think before using cooldowns to manage your damage? I'd feel bad for you, but I've been playing a Rogue since pre-BC. I've had to sit through points in time where Mutilate and my other "real" skills did such little damage, that I was better off using Shiv to generate Combo Points, and then I might as well not Rupture because it was doing such terrible damage I'm better off just putting up Slice+Dice/Envenoming.

You will not be saying the same thing about trash in Cata, since every new expansion brings about a paradigm shift from the previous content which you can just AOE through due to how well your party is geared. CCs are going to be back in session, and things will take more than a second or two to burn through.

Divine Storm is useless now it shares a CD with Crusader Strike, and there are no DPSing seals, the closest we get is SoT.

Erm, boohoo?
Divine Storm being made "useless" is to prevent the macros that were being used in the most recent beta build where people were tying the two together and getting past the refresh timer on both.
As for Seal of Truth...it's great. Do you know why?
It stacks Holy damage on your target. Which is completely unaffected by any resistance(since you can't actually get a Holy Resistance after all) and also completely unaffected by armor.

Protection deals better DPS than us, they even get a talent that increases the damage of Crusader Strike and Judgement by 50%/100% (what does protection need a damage talent for!?) and the crit strike chance of Holy Wrath and Hammer of Wrath by 15%/30% (wait, why do they need extra crit now too?). What do we get? A talent that increases the damage we do by 2%/4% per charge of holy power wasted on healing someone, which is usually the job of a Holy paladin...

I'm assuming you don't tank. If you did, you'd know why they have these changes.
1) Crusader Strike is the main "single-target" ability for Protadins right now. That's why it was made baseline, not just for Retadins. Hammer of the Righteous is, for all intents and purposes, dead to Protadins except in large AoE pulls where it deals absurd damage.
2) Holy Wrath critting is a "big deal" for a Protadin who's tanking an AoE group. Crits=more threat. Hammer of Wrath critting is to make sure that when a Protadin uses it, their target goes down. It's not reachable by Ret for the simple reason of the Ret "must have" talent that reduces the CD on Avenging Wrath and allows for HoW to be used within Avenging Wrath.
Also, "Selfless Healer" has a very good reason to be in the Ret tree.
Because of your Mastery. The Mastery procs an absurdly amount for my Paladin, and I was able to keep Selfless Healer up pretty much throughout the entirety of most boss fights in Cataclysm's beta.

So yes, Rets do have a reason to complain. Blizzard need to get off their arse and fix the damn class; we're either Underpowered and a laughing stock, or Overpowered and hated by every non-paladin class.

Again...
Welcome to WoW?
I get hate from my own faction just for being a Rogue.
And also, Blizz doesn't "need" to fix anything. At 85, you're fine. It's only really at 80, without gear that features Mastery on it that the issue exists.

Fury warriors have a lot less to complain about other than the nerf they took in the last patch that decreased the damage of their rotation by 17%, whereas Warlocks only took a 12% knock (last time I checked, Warlocks were and still are an all-around powerful class, but what did Fury have that warranted such a nerf?)

Warlocks took a 12% knock based on the damage they were dealing at level 80.
Fury Warriors took it based upon how they were interacting with Colossus Strike at 85.

I'm sorry to turn the thread into a bit of a rant, but when you can look at a Retribution paladin and say they're fine, reality checks need to be doled out.

Because really, performing better than a pure class(by all accounts from Cata's beta) whose only role is damage...

Obviously, that's not fine

This post encapsulates why I won't be going back to WoW. PVP horsecrap affecting PVE raiders....always been like that, always will be like that. I miss the days of BWL and AQ40. 25 man raids killed the game for folks like me.

WTB raids on the Plane of Fear or GM events like Kith A'cor Forest on Haloween. WoW is WAY too static of an environment. GM's are customer service, and it is just slick graphics with a responsive interface. Game depth is almost nonexistent.

Then you weren't using your talents properly. Rets had, next to Warriors, the highest uptime possible on targets. Hand of Freedom made sure of that, as did their bubble. Or do you forget that they had to install a 50% damage debuff onto Retadins for their bubble for a reason?

Are you talking about PvE or PvP? I'm mostly on about PvE, since I don't PvP a lot (I walk in, get smacked across the face by a hardcore PvPer who's been doing it 24/7, then leave and que for an heroic). It sounds like you're referencing PvP, in which case I ask you how Retri PvP was actively discouraged (at least on the servers I played; remember that battlegroups will vary). You've also reminded me of another little insult I used to get in the form of 'retardin', and did you forget that they installed the 50% damage debuff on only 1 bubble, and it was the first one you got? Divine Protection still grants 100% damage immunity, and both bubbles cause the debuff.

Because it didn't take skill to do well as a Retadin in instances or PvP both. I have a Paladin. With the beginning of Wrath, my damage levels were through the roof and easily outdoing my Rogue and Hunter(who were tiers of gear ahead of my Paladin).
All I had to do was to watch for some of my procs to come up, then I could completely devastate anyone who was stupid enough to come towards me. There's a reason Seal of Command was being called "SealofCasino", y'know.
That's not skill. That's being overpowered, but held in a sort of "check" by procs.

The fact that it didn't take skill is part of my point, either we're Underpowered, or Overpowered (the latter in this case). You have a paladin? Great. I have 4. One is holy, two are protection and one is retri. Granted only my retri and one prot are 80, it still allows me to make basic comparisons. With the beginning of Wrath bla bla bla; again, my point, at the beginning of Wrath, a chance for Blizzard to learn from their mistakes during TBC, they instead decided to buff everything. I've also never heard SoCo being referenced as SealofCasino (it makes no immediate sense); in fact, SoCo was still inferior to SoV when it came to everything bar large groups, where the multiple hit of SoCo made it worthwhile to use.

I didn't enjoy being overpowered, I don't much enjoy being underpowered either, which again is why Blizzard need to address Paladins.

Welcome to being a class where you actually have to think before using cooldowns to manage your damage? I'd feel bad for you, but I've been playing a Rogue since pre-BC. I've had to sit through points in time where Mutilate and my other "real" skills did such little damage, that I was better off using Shiv to generate Combo Points, and then I might as well not Rupture because it was doing such terrible damage I'm better off just putting up Slice+Dice/Envenoming.

You will not be saying the same thing about trash in Cata, since every new expansion brings about a paradigm shift from the previous content which you can just AOE through due to how well your party is geared. CCs are going to be back in session, and things will take more than a second or two to burn through.

Oh clever, using a sarcastic questioning welcome, never heard that one before. Never have I heard of Rogues as being under-powered. Several of my friends play rogues, one them is trying to get me to re-roll a rogue because of how bad retri paladins are and how good rogues are. Do you know what this is a sign of? It's a sign of Blizzard fixing a class. You USED to be crap, but now you aren't crap, but nor do I heard screams of OP following the word 'rogue'. Rogues are an example of how Blizzard have taken a class and moulded it instead of throwing huge buffs/nerfs at it with every patch.

Divine Storm being made "useless" is to prevent the macros that were being used in the most recent beta build where people were tying the two together and getting past the refresh timer on both.
As for Seal of Truth...it's great. Do you know why?
It stacks Holy damage on your target. Which is completely unaffected by any resistance(since you can't actually get a Holy Resistance after all) and also completely unaffected by armor

And so instead of removing Divine Storm, they just decided to leave it there? Great, "We can't be bothered trying to work around this; here, you can look at the ability and wonder why you still have it."
As for Seal of Truth, it's great... on bosses and mobs where you can stack it enough for the damage to build up. Then when that mob dies, you have to stack it on a new one and wait for the damage to build. See where i'm going? Constant DoT should not be the main damage seal, what it should be is something akin to Seal of the Martyr, which was a great seal before its removal.

I'm assuming you don't tank. If you did, you'd know why they have these changes.
1) Crusader Strike is the main "single-target" ability for Protadins right now. That's why it was made baseline, not just for Retadins. Hammer of the Righteous is, for all intents and purposes, dead to Protadins except in large AoE pulls where it deals absurd damage.
2) Holy Wrath critting is a "big deal" for a Protadin who's tanking an AoE group. Crits=more threat. Hammer of Wrath critting is to make sure that when a Protadin uses it, their target goes down. It's not reachable by Ret for the simple reason of the Ret "must have" talent that reduces the CD on Avenging Wrath and allows for HoW to be used within Avenging Wrath.
Also, "Selfless Healer" has a very good reason to be in the Ret tree.
Because of your Mastery. The Mastery procs an absurdly amount for my Paladin, and I was able to keep Selfless Healer up pretty much throughout the entirety of most boss fights in Cataclysm's beta.

Crusader strike is also the main 'single-target' ability for retri. If HotR is now 'dead' to protadins, then why wasn't this talent utilised to improve that instead?
The threat is also what i don't understand. Why on earth have it crit more often when you could just increase the threat is causes? That is my reply to anyone who uses threat as an excuse for this talent; why increase damage done over a pure threat increase? HoW critting to ensure a Protadin's target goes down? Damage is the DPS' job, they ensure the target goes down, not the tank's. If protadins are now responsible for killing off their targets as well as tanking them, why not have a group of 4 Prot pallies and a healer? That covers the tanking aspect and the DPS aspect pretty damn well.
Selfless Healer is also NOT good to have in the retri tree. The mastery procs a lot for YOUR paladin? I can count its procs in my heroics on my hands. If we're going to need to focus on Mastery in order to use Templar's Verdict (because obviously we need all the holy power to keep Selfless Healer up) then WHY does TV even use holy power in the first place? Holy Power goes into Selfless Healer, TV is used when Mastery procs, why does it have charges? For giggles?

Again...
Welcome to WoW?
I get hate from my own faction just for being a Rogue.
And also, Blizz doesn't "need" to fix anything. At 85, you're fine. It's only really at 80, without gear that features Mastery on it that the issue exists.

Enough with the 'welcome to WoW', we get it, you're trying to make me look bad. People have been doing that for years already, one more person is just irritating.

Which server are you on? I've played across a good few and never seen a Rogue take stick for being a Rogue unless it's the odd jibe or comment made in jest.

Blizz does need to fix something. They need to fix the way Retribution works. If i'm to go with your way of using HP for SH instead of TV, waiting for Mastery to proc so that I can use it and pushing whatever else is off CD in between, then it's going to be fiddly, not to mention pointless having TV use HP in the first place, "You need 3 stacks of holy power to do any damage with this ability; have fun." is what TV says to me, and with SH now becoming the top use for HP according to your beta experience, there is no point in having TV use HP. Then there's Divine Storm, what was once a signature retribution move has now been relegated to nostalgic use only.

The seals also need re-working. A SotM-esque ability would be fine, none of this having to stack DoTs crap.

Avatar 720 wrote:

Then you weren't using your talents properly. Rets had, next to Warriors, the highest uptime possible on targets. Hand of Freedom made sure of that, as did their bubble. Or do you forget that they had to install a 50% damage debuff onto Retadins for their bubble for a reason?

Are you talking about PvE or PvP? I'm mostly on about PvE, since I don't PvP a lot (I walk in, get smacked across the face by a hardcore PvPer who's been doing it 24/7, then leave and que for an heroic). It sounds like you're referencing PvP, in which case I ask you how Retri PvP was actively discouraged (at least on the servers I played; remember that battlegroups will vary). You've also reminded me of another little insult I used to get in the form of 'retardin', and did you forget that they installed the 50% damage debuff on only 1 bubble, and it was the first one you got? Divine Protection still grants 100% damage immunity, and both bubbles cause the debuff.

Divine Shield grants 100% damage immunity but still allows you to attack. You might be thinking of Hand of Protection, which is a 100% physical damage immunity, but you're still vulnerable to magical attacks and cannot attack except with spells.
Originally though, Divine Shield(the full on *Twang!* bubble that everyone associates with Paladins) had a 100% increased delay on your weapons, but you could(through an easily accessible talent in the Protection tree) get a 100% reduction in that. It allowed Retribution Paladins to, after waiting for their team to set things up, pop Avenging Wrath(which at the time did not cause Forbearance) along with Divine Shield and then blow someone up in the duration of a stun.

That was completely unacceptable, what with the fact that the Paladin was untouchable to both magical and physical attacks.

Because it didn't take skill to do well as a Retadin in instances or PvP both. I have a Paladin. With the beginning of Wrath, my damage levels were through the roof and easily outdoing my Rogue and Hunter(who were tiers of gear ahead of my Paladin).
All I had to do was to watch for some of my procs to come up, then I could completely devastate anyone who was stupid enough to come towards me. There's a reason Seal of Command was being called "SealofCasino", y'know.
That's not skill. That's being overpowered, but held in a sort of "check" by procs.

The fact that it didn't take skill is part of my point, either we're Underpowered, or Overpowered (the latter in this case). You have a paladin? Great. I have 4. One is holy, two are protection and one is retri. Granted only my retri and one prot are 80, it still allows me to make basic comparisons. With the beginning of Wrath bla bla bla; again, my point, at the beginning of Wrath, a chance for Blizzard to learn from their mistakes during TBC, they instead decided to buff everything. I've also never heard SoCo being referenced as SealofCasino (it makes no immediate sense); in fact, SoCo was still inferior to SoV when it came to everything bar large groups, where the multiple hit of SoCo made it worthwhile to use.

The fact that you have "4 Paladins" makes me wary, especially since you have 2 Protadins and had no clue why Crusader Strike and Judgment received damage boosters in the Prot tree.
The fact that you claim to have been playing since TBC(I'm guessing, frankly, that you started playing a Paladin around Sunwell when quite a few of my original points regarding Ret had already been addressed, Prot was actually becoming viable and Ret was falling back in the DPS spectrum due to the lack of Demon/Undead mobs where they'd been excelling previously) along with your claim that "Seal of Command was inferior to Seal of Vengeance" makes me think that too.
Seal of Command was, pre-Sunwell, the Paladin DPS/PvP Seal for Alliance. It was referred to in PvP circles as "Seal of Casino" because of the fact that, when you stunned someone, your SoC had a 100% chance to crit. Hit someone with Repentance, pop Wings+Bubble, then bam. You're hitting them with 100% critical Judgement, 100% critical proc on every weapon swing(remember: SoC at that time also had a Libram that went with it where Seal of Command gave you a "Haste" buff that stacked with popular Haste items like the Dragonspine Trophy, etc so you were swinging faster than you normally would be) and it resulted in people being blown up, literally, within 5-6 seconds by an undamageable enemy.

I didn't enjoy being overpowered, I don't much enjoy being underpowered either, which again is why Blizzard need to address Paladins.

They have already done that. You just will not be seeing it until 85 and you're geared up properly.

Welcome to being a class where you actually have to think before using cooldowns to manage your damage? I'd feel bad for you, but I've been playing a Rogue since pre-BC. I've had to sit through points in time where Mutilate and my other "real" skills did such little damage, that I was better off using Shiv to generate Combo Points, and then I might as well not Rupture because it was doing such terrible damage I'm better off just putting up Slice+Dice/Envenoming.

You will not be saying the same thing about trash in Cata, since every new expansion brings about a paradigm shift from the previous content which you can just AOE through due to how well your party is geared. CCs are going to be back in session, and things will take more than a second or two to burn through.

Oh clever, using a sarcastic questioning welcome, never heard that one before. Never have I heard of Rogues as being under-powered. Several of my friends play rogues, one them is trying to get me to re-roll a rogue because of how bad retri paladins are and how good rogues are. Do you know what this is a sign of? It's a sign of Blizzard fixing a class. You USED to be crap, but now you aren't crap, but nor do I heard screams of OP following the word 'rogue'. Rogues are an example of how Blizzard have taken a class and moulded it instead of throwing huge buffs/nerfs at it with every patch.