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I'm new to 40k and have just started painting up a SM army (yeah, I know, typical. What can I say? I'm a sucker for power armor). I saw the Grey Knights Omnibus at my library the other day and have started reading it. I like it, it's fun.

But. It's a little hard for me to swallow that, like, the Imperium are the good guys. Why? Why should the novel be from their perspective, why am I supposed to want them to win? They seem just as "evil" as Chaos (I mean, the Emperor has to have 1000 people murdered every day just so he can live).

Anyway, maybe I'm thinking about it too much, but this is what I do. Are there any novels/fiction that take a more balanced approach or criticize the Imperium? Or even, are there any books not written from the Imperium's perspective?

UHh. No They do bad stuff all the time. Every race does. Even the tau. The Tau are evil as they destroy entire worlds.

No, we are supposed to root for Orks, and never them sissy armoured tincans known as SM.

Noir wrote:No, we are supposed to root for Orks, and never them sissy armoured tincans known as SM.

Hey I resent that!

I don't delve much into the black library, however Warhammer exists exactly as you say. The Imperium of Man is every bit as messed up as you think it is, and while I would say it is a stretch to say they are AS bad as the twisted depraved forces of Chaos, the all consuming hive fleets of the Tyranids, or the sadistic raiders of the Dark Eldar, they are certainly far from good guys in many ways.

Most of the Galaxy exists in a shade of gray, the only real reason you might side with Imperium is that it is mankind, which you happen to be a member of (and the reason people assume they are the "good" guys.) But they are no more good then Eldar, Tau, Orks, etc. They just have different goals as a society (Survival, Expansion and WAAAAGH! respectively).

That's how I see it anyway.

You also have to remember that you are reading the Grey Knights omnibus, and that means the stories are going to be told from the perspective of the Imperium.

Sounds just like LA here in Cali on a daily basic...Ohhh my....Bloods...Crips....and other Bangers...I shade of grey in all societies.........Lets just play Necromunda and hope that the Judges dont gives us the death penalty for having illegal comic books....

The Imperium is evil, lesser of many but they still do evil stuff.

However many humans in the imperium are good people who fight for justice and peace. its a pity the system they work in is som messed up.

Asherian Command wrote:

Noir wrote:No, we are supposed to root for Orks, and never them sissy armoured tincans known as SM.

Hey I resent that!

No, No , No you were suppose to say "Hey I play SM" then I say "So you know".

You root for whatever race you like the most.

No race (besides Chaos) is really the "good or bad" guy.

Hans Chung-Otterson wrote:I mean, the Emperor has to have 1000 people murdered every day just so he can live).

Its the balancing act, 40k isn't like the lord of the rings where good and evil are pretty well defined, its not like angels and devils. the IoM is not evil it is just looking out for itself, if the sacrifices were not made the emperor would die (may lead to star child or new god senarios) this would lead to the collapse of the IoM and the deaths of countless civilians who are on the whole innocent to the 'evil' actions of the IoM. add o this that those that get sacrificed are chosen because of the danger they pose, each one is too weak to prevent them being turned into an entrance for daemons, which would lead to countless deaths of more innocents.


BL does have some eldar novels i think, but most are written from the perspective of humans or superhumans.

If you're looking for a neutral faction to vote for that is closest to 'White' in the shades of morality you're going to end up with either the Tyranid swarms that crawl over planets devouring everything all the way down to the sky itself or the legions of metallic undead of the future that are prone to wipe out entire worlds because they were woken up. So...do you like bugs or zombies because they're the closest to good

No, necrons are evil too, they do it because the only emotion they have left is hate. Pure, unadulterated hate.

Dude, you're human so I'd assume you'd wish for the survival of the human race. There's not really any other given side. The fluff of 40k is so contradictory sometimes. In the common intro to all the books, the imperium may seem very grimdark. But when you read less fanatical, killmaimburn imperial books like alot of Gram McNeill and Dan Abnett's stuff, it seems alot less so.

Sometimes you gotta kill alot of people to stay alive.

*coughcoughIplayspacemarinestoocoughcough*

I use this chart as a reference. As I say, Pick your poison...

40k is definitely big on the "black and grey morality" trope from tvtropes. The picture I get of the Imperium is as a place where brutal, horrible things are done because the alternatives are frequently even worse.

As an example, suppose the sacrifices of psykers to the Golden throne were to stop, no more murdering 1000 people for the Emperor every day. Hooray for us, right? Except now the astronomicon goes out, all non-chaos warp travel breaks down, and the entire species gets eaten by bugs, Orks, etc. etc. Most of the worst of the Imperium can be pinned down to this kind of ugly necessity. The religious lunacy/oppression (it works on Daemons) the paranoia about aliens (The Eldar language should be called "Lies", and Ork honesty is even worse) and even the crushing taxes of the administratum ('cause I mean, fighting the whole galaxy at once is EXPENSIVE) all come down to human beings doing what they have to do to survive in horrible situations.

Now, that said, there are a few novels that aren't quite as "RAH RAH SPACE MARINES!" as the GK Omnibus you might like. Flesh and Iron by Henry Zou is a recent one. In older fair, you might be able to scrounge up a copy of "Pawns of Chaos"

Also, some groups will appear closer to good to certain people. Some people view the imperium as brutal and tau as peaceful; or you might view the imperium as being safe and the tau as being deceitful.

BluntmanDC wrote:BL does have some eldar novels i think, but most are written from the perspective of humans or superhumans.

Ive found Path of the Warrior (Eldar BL book) a little lack luster, though it does do a good job of explaining back story and is one of the few real glimpses into a xeno race without the IoM telling the whole story. You have to appreciate the fluff behind it to really enjoy it though

It sort of been touched on, but really you have to look past the actions to the motivation behind them; because if you're defining evil as doing lots of killing, all the races are equally bad. "Grim dark future there is only war..." and whatnot.

Chaos, Dark Eldar, and Necrons are 'the bad guys'. This is because they live to torment, kill, and destroy; their motivation is that this brings them pleasure. They know what they did/do is horrifically evil, and chose to do it anyway.

Tyranids and Orks are evil from the human (or really any other sapient race) perspecitve, because they too live to kill. However, they really exist outside morality, and probably find the idea odd if they can comprehend it at all. It's just in their nature to kill and destroy; they don't really have the mental capacity to delineate right and wrong, or choose between them.

This leaves the Imperium, Tau Empire, and Eldar as more or less 'good guys'. Certainly they are all much closer to a morally grey than in many works of fiction, but I personally like that. Alot of what they do is questionable, but that's kind of the way life is; I find the blinding white paragon stereotype to be a pretty big break for my suspension of disbelief. From our real life perspective killing thousands to keep the Emperor alive, insane xenophobia, repressive dogma, etc. aren't the actions of a good society. But just look at why these things are in place in the Imperium; without them the entire race falls apart, resulting in a much worse fate.

So yeah, basically we're supposed to root for the Imperium, or Eldar or Tau if you're a dirty xeno lover.


Or forget morality and embrace the suffering of all races; Commorragh needs feeding!

Awesome, thanks everyone, that clears up a lot.

To be clear, what was kind of confusing me is that the GK book talks about all this awful staff the IoM does, but still paints it as good. Like, it's almost a criticism of modern politics or certain societies in real life, but then it calls the IoM "good". I suppose I was just confused by that subtextual criticism and then the on-the-face praise.

But it makes more sense to me now, and perhaps thinking about the "subtext" of WH40k fiction is taking it too far.

chowderhead13 wrote:I use this chart as a reference. As I say, Pick your poison...

yay! neutral evil ftw!

In any other fiction the IoM would be the bad guys. It says a lot about the universe that they are the good guys.

Famous lines from team america come to mind here. Can't repeat it here on a family friendly forum but basically, yes the imperium does bad things but they also stop the real evil bad guys from doing the real bad things, because no one else can, not on the scale the imperium does.

You have to realise that the Imperium is human, so it is far easier for us to sympathise with similar beings (by their very natuer they are often seen as the protaganist). That and much of what the Imperium does is necessary for mere survival. Nonetheless, the we are by no means coerced to take the veiw that the Imperium is 'good'. Almost any race can justify their role, sometimes moreso than the Imperium.

Hans Chung-Otterson wrote:Anyway, maybe I'm thinking about it too much, but this is what I do. Are there any novels/fiction that take a more balanced approach or criticize the Imperium? Or even, are there any books not written from the Imperium's perspective?

Plenty. "The Path of the Warrior" by Gav Thorpe is written solely from an Eldar perspective on the Eldar way of life.

Think of it like a fight between Doctor Doom and Galactus. Even though Doctor Doom is evil, you'd still want him to win because he's just "be the boss" evil, not "eat people" evil. The Imperial leadership might be dominated by evil people, but they do protect the innocent, after a fashion. And the further down the ranks you go, the more good people you find.

Hans Chung-Otterson wrote:I'm new to 40k and have just started painting up a SM army (yeah, I know, typical. What can I say? I'm a sucker for power armor). I saw the Grey Knights Omnibus at my library the other day and have started reading it. I like it, it's fun.

But. It's a little hard for me to swallow that, like, the Imperium are the good guys. Why? Why should the novel be from their perspective, why am I supposed to want them to win? They seem just as "evil" as Chaos (I mean, the Emperor has to have 1000 people murdered every day just so he can live).

Anyway, maybe I'm thinking about it too much, but this is what I do. Are there any novels/fiction that take a more balanced approach or criticize the Imperium? Or even, are there any books not written from the Imperium's perspective?

The Gaunts Ghosts series is pretty good at times following events in the imperium but at the same time showing what's wrong with it. As well as what can be right with it. Sometimes good people feel forced to do bad things. And bad people aren't necessarily bad. Or are they truly monsters? Even though they feel they're saving people? You decide.

It's your option, you can do what you like.

The younger teens are obviously meant to root for the IoM, that's why the Space Mariens were created as 'so awesome' to be an easy hero figure.

chowderhead13 wrote:I use this chart as a reference. As I say, Pick your poison...

Neutral Good and true neutral FTW!

Wouldn't Chaos be Chaotic evil, while Deldar would be neutral evil?

EmilCrane wrote:
Neutral Good and true neutral FTW!

Maybe if you are talking 5th Edition Codexes...

Anyway, from what I have surmised after reading most of the fluff out there, and I know this is going to sound VERY out of tune, but...

Chaos Space Marines (NOT CHAOS DAEMONS) are probably the closest thing in the universe out there to "Good Guys" as they are literally sacrificing their souls so that they may influence the darkest of powers for that of their own species survival.

It is the intention, not the result, that drives morality, and it is in this, that the Chaos Space Marines (and possibly the Necrons) are the closest thing to a defined "traditional protagonist" in the 40k universe!

Daemon-Archon Ren wrote:It is the intention, not the result, that drives morality,

That's not entirely true. A depraved indifference to the consequences of your actions is also considered evil. For example, deliberately driving your car through a crowd and killing people is evil, even if you did not intend to cause them injury.