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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/01/12 19:33:49
Subject: Re:So, are we supposed to root for the Imperium?
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Consigned to the Grim Darkness
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Sir Pseudonymous wrote:Melissia wrote:The Inquisition is not an organization of softies, they are an organization of exceptional human beings with the willpower to do what must be done.
And the sense to not burn a city to the ground just because it's there.
Don't be so sure. Karamazov killed tens if not hundreds of billions just to deny potential food to the Tyranids in a move which may very well have damned the Imperium anyway by re-routing the Tyranids into a large Ork kingdom where, no matter who wins, the winning side will come out substantially stronger and in a position to strike at almost anywhere in the Imperium.
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2011/01/12 19:35:35
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/01/12 19:49:22
Subject: Re:So, are we supposed to root for the Imperium?
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Boom! Leman Russ Commander
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Mr Nobody wrote:*snip*
The Tau in the Jericho Reach region are the closest we've got to a look at what life can be like under the Tau at its worst.
Forced sterilisation, indoctrination camps, people disappear when they express discontent, and either don't reappear, or reappear as brainwashed cheerleaders.
The Tau use subject species as test subjects for dangerous enviroments, rather than risking the lives of Tau, and in one situation are basically firing off ships with subject race pilots into the stellar equivalent of an industrial potato peeler.
Secret labs with Nazi style medical experiments and "psychological" testing as well.
Not so good now.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/01/12 19:49:53
Hail to the creeeeeeeeeeeeeeed!baby Ask not the moot a question,for he will give you three answers,all of which will result in a public humiliation.
My DIY chapter Fire Wraiths http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/264338.page
3 things that Ivan likes:
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Colonel Miles Quaritch is my hero
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/01/12 20:22:54
Subject: Re:So, are we supposed to root for the Imperium?
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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Melissia wrote:Sir Pseudonymous wrote:Melissia wrote:The Inquisition is not an organization of softies, they are an organization of exceptional human beings with the willpower to do what must be done.
And the sense to not burn a city to the ground just because it's there.
Don't be so sure. Karamazov killed tens if not hundreds of billions just to deny potential food to the Tyranids in a move which may very well have damned the Imperium anyway by re-routing the Tyranids into a large Ork kingdom where, no matter who wins, the winning side will come out substantially stronger and in a position to strike at almost anywhere in the Imperium.
It's Kryptman, but Karamazov is equaly fanatical
I think the Kryptman gamble, while utterly heartless, is basicaly an act of desperation. With the 13. great crusade threatening to overrun Cadia and the various other catastrophes at the end of the 41. millenium the Imperium simply lacks the resources to fight back the entirety of yet another gargantuan Tyranid hivefleet. Luring Leviathan into orkheld space might buy just a few decades but perhaps this is enough to organise a solid defence.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/01/12 20:31:45
Subject: Re:So, are we supposed to root for the Imperium?
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Mysterious Techpriest
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Melissia wrote:Sir Pseudonymous wrote:Melissia wrote:The Inquisition is not an organization of softies, they are an organization of exceptional human beings with the willpower to do what must be done.
And the sense to not burn a city to the ground just because it's there.
Don't be so sure. Karamazov killed tens if not hundreds of billions just to deny potential food to the Tyranids in a move which may very well have damned the Imperium anyway by re-routing the Tyranids into a large Ork kingdom where, no matter who wins, the winning side will come out substantially stronger and in a position to strike at almost anywhere in the Imperium.
You don't see a difference between a ruthless strategic gambit and "proximity is sin, burn them all, the Emperor will recognize his own"? I don't believe anyone has implied that ruthless brutality is an example of "white", either, nor even that pointless brutality (to differentiate from "ruthless" or "justified by the ends" brutality) is the exclusive domain of the Adeptus Sororitas. Every Imperial faction has those that engage in needless destruction for no good reason, the SoB just tend to be the most fervent about it being right, no matter how egregious the example. They're intolerant zealots even in comparison to the Inquisition, which generally exemplifies fanatic devotion to the Imperium and the ruthless purging of its enemies. Discretion, pragmatism, and subtlety can be found in at least most Inquisitors, concepts that are alien to the Ministorum outlook, and thus the Adeptus Sororitas.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/01/12 21:15:00
Subject: So, are we supposed to root for the Imperium?
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Stormin' Stompa
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poontangler wrote:As far as I have read in the fluff. An inquisitor is not somebody you want looking at you. "Innocence proves nothing."
I hate that phrase, all it tells me is that Inquisitors need dictionaries!
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Ask yourself: have you rated a gallery image today? |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/01/12 21:19:56
Subject: So, are we supposed to root for the Imperium?
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Consigned to the Grim Darkness
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Oh, so killing a hundred billion people with an ill-advised tactic that didn't even really work is a gambit, while a few hundred is some sort of tragedy and brutality?
Please, this is just ridiculous. Mr Nobody wrote:poontangler wrote:As far as I have read in the fluff. An inquisitor is not somebody you want looking at you. "Innocence proves nothing."
I hate that phrase, all it tells me is that Inquisitors need dictionaries!
The full quote is something more like "innocence just means you're guilty of wasting my time", but I'm too lazy to look up the whole quote.
Inquisitors are fanatical bastards, through and through. It's part of the job.
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This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2011/01/12 21:47:38
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/01/12 22:33:21
Subject: So, are we supposed to root for the Imperium?
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Mysterious Techpriest
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Melissia wrote:Oh, so killing a hundred billion people with an ill-advised tactic that didn't even really work is a gambit, while a few hundred is some sort of tragedy and brutality?
Please, this is just ridiculous.
...
Inquisitors are fanatical bastards, through and through. It's part of the job.
Sir Pseudonymous wrote:I don't believe anyone has implied that ruthless brutality is an example of "white", either, nor even that pointless brutality (to differentiate from "ruthless" or "justified by the ends" brutality) is the exclusive domain of the Adeptus Sororitas. Every Imperial faction has those that engage in needless destruction for no good reason, the SoB just tend to be the most fervent about it being right, no matter how egregious the example. They're intolerant zealots even in comparison to the Inquisition, which generally exemplifies fanatic devotion to the Imperium and the ruthless purging of its enemies. Discretion, pragmatism, and subtlety can be found in at least most Inquisitors, concepts that are alien to the Ministorum outlook, and thus the Adeptus Sororitas.
Look anywhere and you find pointless brutality. Out of the Imperial factions, only the Ecclesiarchy (and by extension the Adeptus Sororitas) has it as standard operating procedure, however. Of course there are Inquisitors, or generals, or governors every bit as bad, or far worse (just as their are individual cases of Ecclesiarchy officials being far worse than their already extreme norm; or better, presumably, but the fluff isn't too big on ever mentioning them).
I would defend burning worlds to stop a hive fleet, though it's rather silly to burn them before the hive fleet has committed massive amounts of resources to consuming the world. Tyranids threaten the whole of the Imperium, a rogue psyker generally threatens little more than a few city blocks.
You can't apply Black and White morality to 40K. The best you get is gray. The Sororitas are an example of a rather dark gray, making the Inquisition look tolerant and understanding by comparison. That is obviously not to say that the Inquisition is either, but that compared to the Ecclesiarchy they are.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/01/12 22:38:42
Subject: So, are we supposed to root for the Imperium?
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Deathwing Terminator with Assault Cannon
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Sir Pseudonymous wrote:
I would defend burning worlds to stop a hive fleet, though it's rather silly to burn them before the hive fleet has committed massive amounts of resources to consuming the world. Tyranids threaten the whole of the Imperium
One thing to remember is that nids are more than capable of space combat(warriors of ultramar comes to mind) so it'd be more tactically sound to destroy a planet before nids get there then have to fight nids and commit exterminatus at the same time
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DA 4000 points W/L/D 6e 3/2/0
IG 1500 points W/L/D 6e 0/2/0
And 100% Primed! |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/01/12 23:44:51
Subject: So, are we supposed to root for the Imperium?
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Mysterious Techpriest
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But if they've committed their resources to seizing the planet, losing everything on the ground would greatly weaken the fleet as a whole. Just denying them food for a short while doesn't really do all that much; they did make the trip from another galaxy without any food source, remember. Massed fleet action combined with exerminatus of the infected world would all but destroy the hive fleet, and has been successfully used at least once.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/01/13 00:57:54
Subject: So, are we supposed to root for the Imperium?
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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Sir Pseudonymous wrote:But if they've committed their resources to seizing the planet, losing everything on the ground would greatly weaken the fleet as a whole. Just denying them food for a short while doesn't really do all that much; they did make the trip from another galaxy without any food source, remember. Massed fleet action combined with exerminatus of the infected world would all but destroy the hive fleet, and has been successfully used at least once.
And in the process you might lose your own fleet assets, just when a madman, marinated in the raw stuff of chaos for 10000 years, once again decides that it is time for a new Black Crusade  .
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/01/13 01:24:19
Subject: So, are we supposed to root for the Imperium?
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Mysterious Techpriest
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I don't think you realize the full scale of the Imperium. The entirety of the traitor legions is but the barest speck beside the Imperial military complex. Didn't one of the Marine Chapters manage to devastate a Hive Fleet, albeit at the expense of several worlds, and most of its number? That was less than one tenth of one percent of the Space Marines the Imperium has, who are themselves outnumbered something on the order of millions to one by the ranks of the Imperial Guard and Navy.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/01/13 02:55:21
Subject: Re:So, are we supposed to root for the Imperium?
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Deathwing Terminator with Assault Cannon
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problem is HFL is striking from below the galaxy as opposed to the other fleets comin in from the sides
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DA 4000 points W/L/D 6e 3/2/0
IG 1500 points W/L/D 6e 0/2/0
And 100% Primed! |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/01/13 04:22:08
Subject: So, are we supposed to root for the Imperium?
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Mysterious Techpriest
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And? It's not as though the backwater outskirts of the Imperium are fortresses against incursions from without. If anything, their forces will be more concentrated closer to the segmentum solar.
My point was that the Imperial forces that have devastated hive fleets and splinter fleets have amounted to only the smallest fragment of what the Imperium has in active service. A single space marine chapter? There are one thousand of them. The guard and navy outnumber those chapters many millions to one. What chance do a half dozen hive fleets have against that?
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/01/13 05:53:16
Subject: So, are we supposed to root for the Imperium?
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Tough Tyrant Guard
Firing my Hellgun into a Fire Warrior's head....
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I would say the title of good and evil is in the eyes of the beholder.... if you are human the IoM isnt really evil, just doing what they have to. Everyone else however is looked at as an evil enemy to mankind.
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"Strike first, strike hard, no mercy."
"We are judged in life by the evil we destroy."
"I am going to drastically thin the enemies ranks." |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/01/13 06:31:17
Subject: So, are we supposed to root for the Imperium?
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Fresh-Faced New User
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Chaotic Good are who I go for.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/01/13 12:14:53
Subject: So, are we supposed to root for the Imperium?
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Power-Hungry Cultist of Tzeentch
Iceland of doom
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Mr Nobody wrote:poontangler wrote:As far as I have read in the fluff. An inquisitor is not somebody you want looking at you. "Innocence proves nothing."
I hate that phrase, all it tells me is that Inquisitors need dictionaries!
Well, I'm guessing it means 'You don't need to have committed heretical acts to be a heretic.'
You can turn away from the Emperor without hurting anyone.
Serious post is unnecessarily serious.
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"I'we kill dem now 'stead a' runnin', we can kill someone else sooner!" - Warboss Killjaw Bonegnasha
"If we attack those Imperial dogs now, we can spill more blood. Then we'll gain power from Khorne so we can kill even MORE in his name!" -Esirias, Chaos Lord of Khorne
"If we don't purge the tainted heretics today, there may be no reconciliation in the eyes of the God-Emperor!" - Varigius, Ultramarines Captain |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/01/13 21:30:46
Subject: Re:So, are we supposed to root for the Imperium?
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Sybarite Swinging an Agonizer
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IvanTih wrote:Mr Nobody wrote:*snip*
The Tau in the Jericho Reach region are the closest we've got to a look at what life can be like under the Tau at its worst.
Forced sterilisation, indoctrination camps, people disappear when they express discontent, and either don't reappear, or reappear as brainwashed cheerleaders.
The Tau use subject species as test subjects for dangerous enviroments, rather than risking the lives of Tau, and in one situation are basically firing off ships with subject race pilots into the stellar equivalent of an industrial potato peeler.
Secret labs with Nazi style medical experiments and "psychological" testing as well.
Not so good now.
Actually I read up something very similar to this, and it should be noted that most of these accusations are the result of Imperial Propaganda.
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Armies:
4000+
2000
125 Khador
1500 Beastmen
W/L/D
14/11/10
4/1/3
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/01/13 23:54:00
Subject: Re:So, are we supposed to root for the Imperium?
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Deathwing Terminator with Assault Cannon
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poontangler wrote:
Actually I read up something very similar to this, and it should be noted that most of these accusations are the result of Imperial Propaganda.
But as we all know propaganda is the truth, especially whilst dealing with the IoM
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DA 4000 points W/L/D 6e 3/2/0
IG 1500 points W/L/D 6e 0/2/0
And 100% Primed! |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/01/14 00:08:09
Subject: So, are we supposed to root for the Imperium?
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Charging Dragon Prince
Chicago, IL, U.S.A.
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I would think it depends on whether or not if you happen to be an unsanctioned psyker on a spaceship off to who knows where so you can be offed to keep a supposedly benevolent being who isn't dead alive allegedly in order for the universe to be a safer place for zealots and brainwashed slaves, by sacrificing your heathen mind to sustain a power that keeps at bay the dark and threatening forces that human minds manifest for being too creative thus making the warp exist. It would really suck to have any kind of think for yourself instinct in the IoM. Since you do, we are terribly sorry but you are scheduled on the next black ship. Please report to your debarkation point for destination:terra:imperial palace:golden throne, Ny, NY, 10501. attn. Sisters of Silence, Eccliasiarchy, et al.
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Retroactively applied infallability is its own reward. I wish I knew this years ago.
 I am Red/White Take The Magic Dual Colour Test - Beta today! <small>Created with Rum and Monkey's Personality Test Generator.</small>I'm both chaotic and orderly. I value my own principles, and am willing to go to extreme lengths to enforce them, often trampling on the very same principles in the process. At best, I'm heroic and principled; at worst, I'm hypocritical and disorderly. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/01/14 02:26:18
Subject: So, are we supposed to root for the Imperium?
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Sneaky Striking Scorpion
Kicking the crap out of Hive fleet Leviathan
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I say orks are the only true good only because they arnt smart enough to hate things. They fight for fun and they think that the other race is playing there for they are like a new born child.... with a machine gune.... and bombs.... and tanks.... and giant robot suits.
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2700pts
1000pts |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/01/14 04:20:00
Subject: So, are we supposed to root for the Imperium?
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Consigned to the Grim Darkness
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Guitardian wrote:I would think it depends on whether or not if you happen to be an unsanctioned psyker on a spaceship off to who knows where so you can be offed to keep a supposedly benevolent being who isn't dead alive allegedly in order for the universe to be a safer place for zealots and brainwashed slaves, by sacrificing your heathen mind to sustain a power that keeps at bay the dark and threatening forces that human minds manifest for being too creative thus making the warp exist. It would really suck to have any kind of think for yourself instinct in the IoM. Since you do, we are terribly sorry but you are scheduled on the next black ship. Please report to your debarkation point for destination:terra:imperial palace:golden throne, Ny, NY, 10501. attn. Sisters of Silence, Eccliasiarchy, et al.
If you're too weak of will to control your psychic powers, being given to fueling the Astronomican is far better than the alternative....
Having your soul tortured for eternity by daemons. Pretty much psykers are screwed no matter what, but the Imperium at least offers SOME mercy to them no matter how harsh it is, unlike Chaos.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/01/14 04:20:39
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/01/14 04:34:57
Subject: So, are we supposed to root for the Imperium?
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Charging Dragon Prince
Chicago, IL, U.S.A.
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you learn that in bible camp or something? Satan has way more fun.
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Retroactively applied infallability is its own reward. I wish I knew this years ago.
 I am Red/White Take The Magic Dual Colour Test - Beta today! <small>Created with Rum and Monkey's Personality Test Generator.</small>I'm both chaotic and orderly. I value my own principles, and am willing to go to extreme lengths to enforce them, often trampling on the very same principles in the process. At best, I'm heroic and principled; at worst, I'm hypocritical and disorderly. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/01/14 04:36:07
Subject: So, are we supposed to root for the Imperium?
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Consigned to the Grim Darkness
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Maybe, but there's only four beings in chaos who get to play Satan, and everyone else is just a toy to be played around with at their chaotic ever-changing whims.
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The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/01/14 04:44:32
Subject: So, are we supposed to root for the Imperium?
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Stormin' Stompa
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Melissia wrote:Maybe, but there's only four beings in chaos who get to play Satan, and everyone else is just a toy to be played around with at their chaotic ever-changing whims.
But they said they would be my friend!
Seriously though, fueling the astronomicon is only slightly better, but at least you serve some positive purpose.
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Ask yourself: have you rated a gallery image today? |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/01/14 05:32:24
Subject: So, are we supposed to root for the Imperium?
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Boosting Space Marine Biker
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Sir Pseudonymous wrote:I could have sworn Faith and Fire, a book revolving entirely around them, had them literally burning a city in the hunt for a single man; they seize a city in the hunt for a single rogue psyker (the most sympathetic character of the book, considering his motivations are "don't get tortured to death" and "stop the actual villain of the story"), where the citizens welcomed them as liberating heroes, and were promptly hosed with promethium for no given reason (they also failed to accomplish the whole reason for marching on it in the first place, when the psyker flees in a light racing aircraft)...
Mind, I didn't say anything about how they're perceived in-universe, where I get the impression that at the very least the average Imperial citizen shares your views on the matter, only that when it comes to taking military action, they make the Inquisition look careful and lenient by comparison, rather precluding them being an example of "white".
Really, trying to ascribe a status of "white" to any faction is an exercise in futility; the scale starts at a ruthless, pragmatic grey and slides towards "so, why are we trying to summon this daemon, again?" black.
A powerful individual psyker can cause an immense amount of damage. The Bleeding Chalice displays this pretty well with Teturact (which if you haven't read the Soul Drinkers series I highly recommend it). However, I haven't read Faith and Fire but I will say that I don't generally like the writings of James Swallow. The motivations and actions of his characters I occasionally find questionable.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/01/14 05:35:59
Subject: So, are we supposed to root for the Imperium?
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Sybarite Swinging an Agonizer
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"Do not suffer the witch."
Psykers deserve it.
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Armies:
4000+
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125 Khador
1500 Beastmen
W/L/D
14/11/10
4/1/3
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/01/14 08:37:46
Subject: So, are we supposed to root for the Imperium?
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Purposeful Hammerhead Pilot
Houston, Tx
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Skylifter wrote:One reason I really enjoy the whole 40K universe fluff is that it doesn't have any good guys - except the helpless masses, maybe. Everyone with even the least bit of influence in the IoM is a murderer, criminal or psychopath in some way.
Speaking of which, when is GW gonna make the "Helpless Masses" race playable? Wouldn't it be awesome? WS 1, BS 0.000000000000000000000043, T -99, W -2 (yeah, negative 2. Some models start the game dead!) And the only two special rules are: Fetal Position and Suicide.
I'd Preorder the battlebox! ...or Meatbox as I should say!
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Maybe you hang out with immature women. Maybe you're attracted to immature women because you think they'll let you shpadoink them. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/01/14 12:14:58
Subject: So, are we supposed to root for the Imperium?
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Trustworthy Shas'vre
In a hole in New Zealand with internet access
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DickBandit wrote:Skylifter wrote:One reason I really enjoy the whole 40K universe fluff is that it doesn't have any good guys - except the helpless masses, maybe. Everyone with even the least bit of influence in the IoM is a murderer, criminal or psychopath in some way.
Speaking of which, when is GW gonna make the "Helpless Masses" race playable? Wouldn't it be awesome? WS 1, BS 0.000000000000000000000043, T -99, W -2 (yeah, negative 2. Some models start the game dead!) And the only two special rules are: Fetal Position and Suicide.
I'd Preorder the battlebox! ...or Meatbox as I should say!
And to all you boys and girls, this is called how to get parts to stick on the bases of your many exos. Makes them look so much better at doing their job.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/01/14 19:07:00
Subject: So, are we supposed to root for the Imperium?
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Tough Tyrant Guard
Firing my Hellgun into a Fire Warrior's head....
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Ledabot wrote:DickBandit wrote:Skylifter wrote:One reason I really enjoy the whole 40K universe fluff is that it doesn't have any good guys - except the helpless masses, maybe. Everyone with even the least bit of influence in the IoM is a murderer, criminal or psychopath in some way.
Speaking of which, when is GW gonna make the "Helpless Masses" race playable? Wouldn't it be awesome? WS 1, BS 0.000000000000000000000043, T -99, W -2 (yeah, negative 2. Some models start the game dead!) And the only two special rules are: Fetal Position and Suicide.
I'd Preorder the battlebox! ...or Meatbox as I should say!
And to all you boys and girls, this is called how to get parts to stick on the bases of your many exos. Makes them look so much better at doing their job.
Yes! its a race playable by both sides and they act kind of like instinctual behavior! They retreat to the biggest space marine squad in the area at all times hahaha
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"Strike first, strike hard, no mercy."
"We are judged in life by the evil we destroy."
"I am going to drastically thin the enemies ranks." |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/01/14 22:17:37
Subject: So, are we supposed to root for the Imperium?
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Gore-Soaked Lunatic Witchhunter
Australia (Recently ravaged by the Hive Fleet Ginger Overlord)
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xXSir MontyXx wrote:Ledabot wrote:DickBandit wrote:Skylifter wrote:One reason I really enjoy the whole 40K universe fluff is that it doesn't have any good guys - except the helpless masses, maybe. Everyone with even the least bit of influence in the IoM is a murderer, criminal or psychopath in some way.
Speaking of which, when is GW gonna make the "Helpless Masses" race playable? Wouldn't it be awesome? WS 1, BS 0.000000000000000000000043, T -99, W -2 (yeah, negative 2. Some models start the game dead!) And the only two special rules are: Fetal Position and Suicide.
I'd Preorder the battlebox! ...or Meatbox as I should say!
And to all you boys and girls, this is called how to get parts to stick on the bases of your many exos. Makes them look so much better at doing their job.
Yes! its a race playable by both sides and they act kind of like instinctual behavior! They retreat to the biggest space marine squad in the area at all times hahaha 
Probably should have that Skaven Slave rules where they do damage (to themselves?) while fleeing. Finally, falling back is a viable tactic!
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Smacks wrote:
After the game, pack up all your miniatures, then slap the guy next to you on the ass and say.
"Good game guys, now lets hit the showers" |
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