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Made in gb
Esteemed Veteran Space Marine




Sheppey, England

In the HH novels, quite a few of the worlds rediscovered during the Great Crusade are depicted at length as peaceful and content, with beautiful cities and civilisations.

And then the Legions show up and things start exploding.

It's handled as if we're supposed to cheer on individuals rather than the IoM.

Click for a Relictors short story: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/412814.page

And the sequels HERE and HERE

Final part's up HERE

 
   
Made in ba
Boom! Leman Russ Commander







I root for the Imperium because almost everything in the galaxy will try to kill you or enslave you,IoM is at least human.

Hail to the creeeeeeeeeeeeeeed!baby Ask not the moot a question,for he will give you three answers,all of which will result in a public humiliation.

My DIY chapter Fire Wraiths http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/264338.page
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Made in ca
Stormin' Stompa






Ottawa, ON

I root for the tau because they're not zealots.

Ask yourself: have you rated a gallery image today? 
   
Made in ba
Boom! Leman Russ Commander







Mr Nobody wrote:I root for the tau because they're not zealots.

Yet they are also as bad as the Imperium.

Hail to the creeeeeeeeeeeeeeed!baby Ask not the moot a question,for he will give you three answers,all of which will result in a public humiliation.

My DIY chapter Fire Wraiths http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/264338.page
3 things that Ivan likes:
Food Sex Machines
Tactical Genius of DakkaDakka
Colonel Miles Quaritch is my hero
 
   
Made in au
Gore-Soaked Lunatic Witchhunter






Australia (Recently ravaged by the Hive Fleet Ginger Overlord)

IvanTih wrote:
Mr Nobody wrote:I root for the tau because they're not zealots.

Yet they are also as bad as the Imperium.


Hey, I'm a loyalist and even I think that's judging them harshly. But I also know the Tau can't keep up their idealism if they want to survive into the next millenium.

Smacks wrote:
After the game, pack up all your miniatures, then slap the guy next to you on the ass and say.

"Good game guys, now lets hit the showers"
 
   
Made in ca
Stormin' Stompa






Ottawa, ON

IvanTih wrote:
Mr Nobody wrote:I root for the tau because they're not zealots.

Yet they are also as bad as the Imperium.


Well, they don't have commissars and that's good enough for me.

Ask yourself: have you rated a gallery image today? 
   
Made in gb
Renegade Inquisitor de Marche






Elephant Graveyard

Mr Nobody wrote:
IvanTih wrote:
Mr Nobody wrote:I root for the tau because they're not zealots.

Yet they are also as bad as the Imperium.


Well, they don't have commissars and that's good enough for me.

That's 'cos awesome looking black leather trenchcoats are made from cows which the Tau are against killing for some reason...

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Watch for Gerry. 
   
Made in au
Gore-Soaked Lunatic Witchhunter






Australia (Recently ravaged by the Hive Fleet Ginger Overlord)

purplefood wrote:
Mr Nobody wrote:
IvanTih wrote:
Mr Nobody wrote:I root for the tau because they're not zealots.

Yet they are also as bad as the Imperium.


Well, they don't have commissars and that's good enough for me.

That's 'cos awesome looking black leather trenchcoats are made from cows which the Tau are against killing for some reason...


Greater Good = Hinduism?

Hmmm, and Hinduism also has a caste system, with spiritual leaders (insert Ethereals here) at the head, and the warrior caste not too far from the top either.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2010/12/18 06:33:53


Smacks wrote:
After the game, pack up all your miniatures, then slap the guy next to you on the ass and say.

"Good game guys, now lets hit the showers"
 
   
Made in ba
Boom! Leman Russ Commander







Mr Nobody wrote:
IvanTih wrote:
Mr Nobody wrote:I root for the tau because they're not zealots.

Yet they are also as bad as the Imperium.


Well, they don't have commissars and that's good enough for me.

Yet they commit genocide on Nimbosa.

Hail to the creeeeeeeeeeeeeeed!baby Ask not the moot a question,for he will give you three answers,all of which will result in a public humiliation.

My DIY chapter Fire Wraiths http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/264338.page
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Tactical Genius of DakkaDakka
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Made in gb
Mad Gyrocopter Pilot




Scotland

IvanTih wrote:I root for the Imperium because almost everything in the galaxy will try to kill you or enslave you,IoM is at least human.


Imperium of Man: Better the devil you know .
   
Made in gb
Screaming Banshee






Cardiff, United Kingdom

Hans Chung-Otterson wrote:the Emperor has to have 1000 people murdered every day just so he can live.


The Imperium is about the ends justifying the means: In this example, if these people weren't "murdered" the Imperium would lose the astronomican and thus warp travel... meaning doom for trillions.

If humanity didn't resort to its grimdark orwellian and theocratic nature, it'd cave in on itself. It's all about the survival of our species... So yeah, they're the "good guys" in my book.

   
Made in ca
Stormin' Stompa






Ottawa, ON

IvanTih wrote:
Mr Nobody wrote:
IvanTih wrote:
Mr Nobody wrote:I root for the tau because they're not zealots.

Yet they are also as bad as the Imperium.


Well, they don't have commissars and that's good enough for me.

Yet they commit genocide on Nimbosa.


Your point? Because that's pretty normal in 40k.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2010/12/19 19:03:06


Ask yourself: have you rated a gallery image today? 
   
Made in gb
Speedy Swiftclaw Biker




Ripley, Derbyshire

I love the fact that there is no pretence about there being an answer for this.

Take Star Wars for example, we know who is good and who is bad. But when you watch Clerks or Chasing Amy you start to realise there was more to it. At best the rebel alliance were terrorists at worst they were racist ;-)

However in 40k there is none of that, all races are capable of deplorable acts and you cant understand why all do what they do.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2010/12/19 20:28:44


 
   
Made in us
Storm Trooper with Maglight



Milwaukee, WI

This is such a great topic.

The problem is that we are seeing everything from the morality we live with/in (that is, well-developed, fairly prosperous, by-and-large Western, more-or-less liberal democracies) We can say that what the Imperium does (genocide, pogrom, persecution) in 40k is "wrong" because in the real world magic/psychic powers aren't real and (in my opinion, at least) the world's worst evil isn't the Devil in Hell, it's man's ability to be bastards to eachother. So in the real world, religious persecution and racial wars and genocide and all the rest are obviously bad things. No doubt there.

But, in a world like 40k, what place can liberal democratic "rights" have? The idea that your political/religious opinions are your own is pretty well predicated on the assumption that your thinking what you want won't cause a thousand foot tall demon to suddenly burst from your skin and lay waste to the city (because in the real world things like that can't happen). Our liberal values are predicated on a non-magical world. But in the world of 40k where demons and psychic powers/magic abilities are real, a weak willed person with psychic powers even THINKING about a demon can summon that demon from the abyss, as can chanting the wrong prayer to the wrong god.

In a world like 40k, where the objective realities are fundamentally not our own I don't know if you can judge from our standards.

So I would say that yes, we are meant to root for the Imperium. Bad as it is, the alternative is worse. Welcome to flavor country.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2010/12/19 20:29:52


18th Gamtilla Secundus Dragoon Guards Regiment: “The Lord Governor’s Own” 
   
Made in us
Stabbin' Skarboy





Over the Cuckoos Nest

Doctor Optimal wrote
So in the real world, religious persecution and racial wars and genocide and all the rest are obviously bad things.

There is no real religion or government I can recall that hasn't caused some form of atrocity in the past (less in the past for some), but everyones done it. They don't like to talk about it, or sometime even acknowledge that it happened. The is the grimdark reality of our world. It's maybe not as extreme as the 40K universe, but it's there.

Like Doctor Optimal says 40K not real cause it has magic and such, but it is realistic in it' brutality. Not real, but realistic.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2010/12/23 22:35:26


ChrisWWII wrote:
My reaction to this thread is still 'Why, Flying Spaghetti Monster, why?"

asimo77 wrote
Then we're all going down in a blaze of glory and ork milk

Sir Pseudonymous wrote
A pasty, barrel shaped, acid-drooling, balding mutant wearing the jumpsuit version of an Abrams.
 
   
Made in nz
Trustworthy Shas'vre





In a hole in New Zealand with internet access

I like this topic. And I think that chart that was up a few pages back is spot on as far as I can tell. Nids which aren’t on it would go with the orks since they are both fuelled by instinct not moral.

And before anybody starts arguing abut what the tau are, look at my sig.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2010/12/19 22:09:48


   
Made in ca
Stormin' Stompa






Ottawa, ON

Wouldn't Tau be lawful good?

Ask yourself: have you rated a gallery image today? 
   
Made in nz
Trustworthy Shas'vre





In a hole in New Zealand with internet access

Mr Nobody wrote:Wouldn't Tau be lawful good?


that’s what the chart says.

They were like that when they first set out but by the time there 5th ed comes out, who knows what they have been up to.

   
Made in ba
Boom! Leman Russ Commander







Mr Nobody wrote:
IvanTih wrote:
Mr Nobody wrote:
IvanTih wrote:
Mr Nobody wrote:I root for the tau because they're not zealots.

Yet they are also as bad as the Imperium.


Well, they don't have commissars and that's good enough for me.

Yet they commit genocide on Nimbosa.


Your point? Because that's pretty normal in 40k.

They're just as bad as the IoM.

Hail to the creeeeeeeeeeeeeeed!baby Ask not the moot a question,for he will give you three answers,all of which will result in a public humiliation.

My DIY chapter Fire Wraiths http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/264338.page
3 things that Ivan likes:
Food Sex Machines
Tactical Genius of DakkaDakka
Colonel Miles Quaritch is my hero
 
   
Made in ca
Stormin' Stompa






Ottawa, ON

IvanTih wrote:
Mr Nobody wrote:
IvanTih wrote:
Mr Nobody wrote:
IvanTih wrote:
Mr Nobody wrote:I root for the tau because they're not zealots.

Yet they are also as bad as the Imperium.


Well, they don't have commissars and that's good enough for me.

Yet they commit genocide on Nimbosa.


Your point? Because that's pretty normal in 40k.

They're just as bad as the IoM.


No, the imperium does so because they're zealots, the Tau, whether they're right or wrong, do it because they believe it is for the best logical solution. Our argument has now come full circle.

Ask yourself: have you rated a gallery image today? 
   
Made in ph
Whiteshield Conscript Trooper




Davao City, Philippines

Well...being not so serious in regards to faction choice... humans in w40k are humans today, only multiplied by 100,000,000,000,000 etc.
humanity on steroids.

"I am sorry, but you threw of the emperor's groove..."  
   
Made in gb
Infiltrating Broodlord




The Faye

Tau are probably the least Evil of all the playable races.

Demiurg strike me as the most friendly though


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Mr Nobody wrote:
IvanTih wrote:
Mr Nobody wrote:
IvanTih wrote:
Mr Nobody wrote:
IvanTih wrote:
Mr Nobody wrote:I root for the tau because they're not zealots.

Yet they are also as bad as the Imperium.


Well, they don't have commissars and that's good enough for me.

Yet they commit genocide on Nimbosa.


Your point? Because that's pretty normal in 40k.

They're just as bad as the IoM.


No, the imperium does so because they're zealots, the Tau, whether they're right or wrong, do it because they believe it is for the best logical solution. Our argument has now come full circle.


That whole thing was a Tau commander acting against the will of the Tau. IoM is more evil as they hate all xenos.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/01/10 17:17:39


We love what we love. Reason does not enter into it. In many ways, unwise love is the truest love. Anyone can love a thing because. That's as easy as putting a penny in your pocket. But to love something despite. To know the flaws and love them too. That is rare and pure and perfect.

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Made in us
Mysterious Techpriest





Gotta love the "Tau aren't zealots" line when the whole of Tau society is ordered by Ethereal pheromones. Admittedly, the Ethereals then act in the way they think is best for the Tau, but they're also hopelessly naive about the horrors of the universe, which causes significantly more suffering for them than when the Imperium brutally excises heretics or mutants, or hunts down Xenos. The Imperial response to seeing an Eldar is "Shoot it," the Tau's is "Pay it in bodies, then lose an entire world when we don't give it an Ethereal". Imperial response to Necrons is "run away, then blow the planet apart just be sure," the Tau's response is "get brutally slaughtered by welcoming it as your savior".


The Imperium is no better or worse than whatever localized element happens to rule a given area. The Imperium as a whole Does Not Care What Happens To You, so long as its ends get met. As long as you're not denouncing the Emperor, or consorting with Daemons, you're probably going to be fine, unless your society is ruled over by some corrupt local dictator, or you're a hideous mutant on all but a few worlds. Even dealing with Xenos is frequently accepted, such as the lord general and Cain in For the Emperor, or Eisenhorn and Ravenor in Malleus.

As for the annihilating worlds thing, that's only used when the consequences of not doing so are infinitely worse than any other option. Leave a genestealer cult infestation unmolested and everyone on the world will end up eaten alive by tyranids, who will then have their numbers bolstered as they move on to other worlds. If the cult has gone beyond the level where it can be excised manually, the population is too far gone to avoid that, so their lives are forfeit anyways. A world given over to chaos? What other choice is there, unless there are valuable facilities on the world? The population is a lost cause, ridden with mutations, psyker witches, and daemons, trying to force them back into the fold would just result in a hotbed of heresy to be exported to other worlds, and wiping them away in one fell swoop is a kinder fate than letting them all hack each other apart to summon hordes of daemons into the materium.


What's all this about Dark Eldar being evil? They live in a social darwinist society of courtiers, which creates, as per Istvaanian doctrine, brutally efficient tacticians and warriors (look, for comparison, at deathworlders or Cadians, as compared to other humans). As far as the raiding and bloodsport goes, that's literally required to keep them alive (Craftworld Eldar and Exodites all have means of protection against having Slaanesh devour their souls, which also entail rather more ascetic lifestyles, and it should be noted that neither are exactly thriving like the Dark Eldar are...), and when it comes down to it they still take action to prevent the obliteration of other factions at each other's hands, since a dead galaxy is awfully boring after all.


Chaos, on the other hand, is comprised entirely of lies and Stupid Evil minions ("Let's sacrifice a bunch of people to summon a giant daemon to eat us and kill everyone!" "Yaaay!").


Orks and Tyranids, while not truly evil, are essentially noxious pests that are hazards to everything else (other than the Dark Eldar, who can just sit in Commoragh and watch the fireworks), and should be purged with fire.


Craftworld Eldar are manipulative, self-centered ascetics who are collapsing under the weight of their own inability to recover from things that happened ten thousand years prior. The Dark Eldar and Exodites both managed to get over it and thrive, the former more than the latter, since the Exodites don't spread, or fight for anything, or attempt to fix any problems in the galaxy; they just sort of sit around and live in stone-age stasis in the middle of nowhere.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2011/01/10 18:03:47


 
   
Made in us
Alluring Mounted Daemonette






You are supposed to root for Slaanesh


The Daemonic Alliance Infinite Points
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"Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought." JFK 
   
Made in de
Wrathful Warlord Titan Commander






germany,bavaria

If you root for Slaa-nesh youre supposed to rot in hell.


Target locked,ready to fire



In dedicatio imperatum ultra articulo mortis.

H.B.M.C :
We were wrong. It's not the 40k End Times. It's the Trademarkening.
 
   
Made in nz
Trustworthy Shas'vre





In a hole in New Zealand with internet access

rooting for a very clearly stated bad guy is well... bad.

   
Made in gb
Esteemed Veteran Space Marine




Sheppey, England

Sir Pseudonymous wrote: A lot of good stuff


Well thought-out and nicely laid-down.

Click for a Relictors short story: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/412814.page

And the sequels HERE and HERE

Final part's up HERE

 
   
Made in us
Consigned to the Grim Darkness





USA

chowderhead13 wrote:I use this chart as a reference. As I say, Pick your poison...

http://static02.mediaite.com/geekosystem/uploads/2010/03/warhammer-40k-alignment-chart-550x440.jpg

Far be it from me to make an argument about an out of date and overly simplified morality scheme, but that is such a mischaracterization.

For example, Sisters would probably be lawful good, actually-- they do far more as a whole to help the average person of hte Imperium than the Space Marines do. Sure, a Sister Hospitalier is quite quick to kill a heretic, but they do so out of mercy, because it's better in their view for the heretic to die and be cleansed in death, than to live a life of the wretched and profane. To most people, the Hospitalier are utter saints, and the Sisters of Battle are protectors of the faithful. The Sisters of Battle are, for morality's purposes, the 40k equivalent of DnD paladins, while Hospitaliers, Famulous, and Dialogous would be the equivalent of clerics and scholars following the same deity.

Space Marines are closer to lawful neutral than anything, because they're neither good nor evil, they're just a weapon to be used, following long traditions and ancient rules more than any sense of morality, with morality based entirely on each individual chapter's culture.

And so on and so forth.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/01/11 16:38:00


The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
 
   
Made in gb
Junior Officer with Laspistol




Perth/Glasgow

Melissia wrote:
chowderhead13 wrote:I use this chart as a reference. As I say, Pick your poison...

http://static02.mediaite.com/geekosystem/uploads/2010/03/warhammer-40k-alignment-chart-550x440.jpg

Far be it from me to make an argument about an out of date and overly simplified morality scheme, but that is such a mischaracterization.

For example, Sisters would probably be lawful good, actually-- they do far more as a whole to help the average person of hte Imperium than the Space Marines do. Sure, a Sister Hospitalier is quite quick to kill a heretic, but they do so out of mercy, because it's better in their view for the heretic to die and be cleansed in death, than to live a life of the wretched and profane. To most people, the Hospitalier are utter saints, and the Sisters of Battle are protectors of the faithful. The Sisters of Battle are, for morality's purposes, the 40k equivalent of DnD paladins, while Hospitaliers, Famulous, and Dialogous would be the equivalent of clerics and scholars following the same deity.

Space Marines are closer to lawful neutral than anything, because they're neither good nor evil, they're just a weapon to be used, following long traditions and ancient rules more than any sense of morality, with morality based entirely on each individual chapter's culture.

And so on and so forth.


This is completely true, if you read the alpha HH book they were told to rebel wioth Horus but were appalled by the idea that a rebellion could happen. The Knights of Blood still claim to fight the IoMs cause yet in the IoMs eyes they are renegades. In the DA book by Gav Thorpe there is an orginal DA (Now interred at the Rock) who broke Imperial laws but in his eyes he was continuing the crusade started by the emporer over 10,000 years ago but not in the yes of the eyes of the current system. He also claimed that those true to the Lion were the ones cast out. (crazy i know)

In the 40k universe there are very few cases of black and white differences. Sisters and Puritan INquisitors are the purest white you will find in the IoM, Marines vary according to their gene seed. ie Wolves are very grery meanwhile BA(Exclude the genetic flaw which is helps marines understand they aren't perfect) and Ultranoobs are as white as you'll find. Chaos vary from grey to blackest balck. eldar try and stay as white as possible whereas DE dont give a flying f**k.
NIds and Orks are purely driving by a hive mind and hunger for war respectively.

Tau claim to be white as snow yet have very grey areas and are nearly as bad as the IoM

squats never hurt anyone, cept for the nids and inquistion


Currently debating whether to study for my exams or paint some Deathwing 
   
Made in gb
Ghost of Greed and Contempt






Engaged in Villainy

Well, you can always trust a Nid to eat you, an Ork to smash you up, Eldar to use you for their own means, and a Daemon to do something very nasty to you, yo momma and everyone else.

I like to think csm are the real good guys, simply cos i dont like the bueracracy of the iom, too much like real governments.

"He was already dead when I killed him!"

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