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Kilkrazy wrote:It's your option, you can do what you like.

The younger teens are obviously meant to root for the IoM, that's why the Space Mariens were created as 'so awesome' to be an easy hero figure.

I don't think age has anything to do with it and your condescension is showing here.

The IoM represents humanity. It's a safe bet to assume that as humans, we'll root for the human in any given conflict.

Now many stories subvert that, by making the human totally unlikable and making the aliens extremely likable (Avatar comes to mind, but it's not the only one).

But in 40K, while the humans aren't likable, everything is so much worse.

When thinking about the evil the IoM does, it helps to remember that it is done out of necessity - the enemies are so numerous, so dangerous and so hellbent on the destruction of humanity that a softer regime simply wouldn't be able to survive.

AlexHolker wrote:

Daemon-Archon Ren wrote:It is the intention, not the result, that drives morality,

That's not entirely true. A depraved indifference to the consequences of your actions is also considered evil. For example, deliberately driving your car through a crowd and killing people is evil, even if you did not intend to cause them injury.

That falls more under the realm of "Ignorant evil" in the sense that; unless you knew that the action of driving your car into a mob of people would kill them, you aren't actively committing evil.

Take for example the Prophet Muhammad. By most standards, his actions and his preachings would be considered benevolent (the 5 pillars and all that good stuff) and good, yet because of his actions, some groups of individuals take his benevolent teachings, and commit acts of great evil. Thus without his preachings, evil would not be committed, and as such he would be "Ignorantly evil" (as there is no way he could have known that people would take his preachings in such a misguided way!)

If the person were to know that they were committing evil, but did so with a sense of "good intentions" (typically a self-deception) that would be more akin to "insanity", which in a moral sense, would keep the person of committing with sound mental capacity and full moral responsibility of what they are doing.

For the same reason it is not considered rape when a dog starts randomly humping another dog(or person) (and thus, not immoral, but in many a sense, humorous, as YouTube would provide examples of) genuine ignorance of the results of ones actions would not be immoral.

The assumption of "depravity" in itself is actually more immoral then the actions of those whom have the best intentions.

"The Road to hell is paved with good intentions" is in itself infact more of a villainous statement then the 'evil' enacted by the individuals in question

IMO the means justifies the ends, at least in terms of Morality!

Daemon-Archon Ren wrote:

EmilCrane wrote:
Neutral Good and true neutral FTW!

Maybe if you are talking 5th Edition Codexes...

Anyway, from what I have surmised after reading most of the fluff out there, and I know this is going to sound VERY out of tune, but...

Chaos Space Marines (NOT CHAOS DAEMONS) are probably the closest thing in the universe out there to "Good Guys" as they are literally sacrificing their souls so that they may influence the darkest of powers for that of their own species survival.

It is the intention, not the result, that drives morality, and it is in this, that the Chaos Space Marines (and possibly the Necrons) are the closest thing to a defined "traditional protagonist" in the 40k universe!

.... CSM sacrificing themselves for the own species' survival? That might be true of renegade chapters, but not true chaos chapters. One of the defining characteristics of chaos is its self-serving nature. I don't think Abaddon sold his soul because he's a altruist who loves humanity

Abaddon sold his soul because he supported Horus and all his deeds, thus following Horus into worshipping Chaos instead of having fun with the IoM and the Emperor, didn't he?

I do get the point, whilst some renegade chapters sacrifice their very lives to protect what they think is true, there are also those which, as ^ has said turned renegade to serve their own needs and wants.

Tarkand wrote:

Kilkrazy wrote:It's your option, you can do what you like.

The younger teens are obviously meant to root for the IoM, that's why the Space Mariens were created as 'so awesome' to be an easy hero figure.

I don't think age has anything to do with it and your condescension is showing here.

The IoM represents humanity. It's a safe bet to assume that as humans, we'll root for the human in any given conflict.

Now many stories subvert that, by making the human totally unlikable and making the aliens extremely likable (Avatar comes to mind, but it's not the only one).

But in 40K, while the humans aren't likable, everything is so much worse.

When thinking about the evil the IoM does, it helps to remember that it is done out of necessity - the enemies are so numerous, so dangerous and so hellbent on the destruction of humanity that a softer regime simply wouldn't be able to survive.

Well, I do think that age has something to do with it.

I'm a human and I don't root for the humans in this game. I'm not interested in a collection of genes. I am interested in ideas.

I regard the IoM as a dark joke, one side of the coin that has Chaos on the other.

Necrons are evil because they kill all life out of jealousy and hate.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I personally think that eldar and tau are closer to good because they're not zealots like the imperium. No one thinks terrorists are good people.

Join the Eldar and dont look back.

40k is all about being grim and dark. And war, can't forget about war.

There are no good guys and there are no evil guys. There's a bunch of different factions all wanting to kill/eat/enslave/conquer/purge everyone else. Trying to break it down into who you should root for is an exercise in futility. You should be rooting for never having to visit the 40k universe.

chowderhead13 wrote:I use this chart as a reference. As I say, Pick your poison...

That's not really correct, I'd think all of the Races, except Orks,Tyranids and maybe Necrons would be categorized somewhere under Evil. Chaos Forces and Dark Eldar under Chaotic Evil, Imperium of Man under Lawful Evil, Tau Lawful Evil, Eldar Neutral Evil. Necrons as True Neutral because they just want everything reverted back to nothing, Tyranids as True Neutral because they are just doing what they are created for and the Orks as Chaotic Neutral, because they dont care who you are they are gonna fight you.

BrotherStynier wrote:

chowderhead13 wrote:I use this chart as a reference. As I say, Pick your poison...

That's not really correct, I'd think all of the Races, except Orks,Tyranids and maybe Necrons would be categorized somewhere under Evil. Chaos Forces and Dark Eldar under Chaotic Evil, Imperium of Man under Lawful Evil, Tau Lawful Evil, Eldar Neutral Evil. Necrons as True Neutral because they just want everything reverted back to nothing, Tyranids as True Neutral because they are just doing what they are created for and the Orks as Chaotic Neutral, because they dont care who you are they are gonna fight you.

And that is wrong.
The Tau aren't nearly evil enough to be Lawful Evil. Same with Eldar. The Necrons are malicious, and Deldar are Lawful Evil.

Grakmar wrote:40k is all about being grim and dark. And war, can't forget about war.

There are no good guys and there are no evil guys. There's a bunch of different factions all wanting to kill/eat/enslave/conquer/purge everyone else. Trying to break it down into who you should root for is an exercise in futility. You should be rooting for never having to visit the 40k universe.

This here, in my humble opinion is the most probable answer. You can't see a faction as evil unless you're against it. If you're biased towards one side, of course you'll have another side that you want to oppose. IoM-Chaos and everyone else, Eldar-Necrons.

The average humans are ok but the IoM isn't exactly the nicest. While there is fluff showing the IoM as good they tend to focus on the good individuals rather than the IoM (it's pretty hard to justify what they do- even some Inquisitors don't like it). The reason the GK didn't care that the IoM was doing the wrong this is because they are SM and are therefore brainwashed into supporting the IoM.

The IoM is portrayed as good because they are human. They are meant to be the side you support because they are easiest to relate to (for most people). While they aren't as bad as some of the forces they aren't the best either. Some people will justify what they do because they want humans to win and others will judge them on how they act.

Usually you have the people who support humans siding with the IoM and the rest with Tau or Eldar. You can see this from the many threads which look at who is the least evil faction ( you may want to look at thses threads if your interested in finding out the reasons people support each faction). IIRC the most recent poll had the top 3 factions as Tau (1st), Eldar (2nd) and IoM (3rd).

Well, I do think that age has something to do with it.

I'm a human and I don't root for the humans in this game. I'm not interested in a collection of genes. I am interested in ideas.

I regard the IoM as a dark joke, one side of the coin that has Chaos on the other.

While I don't know about age having an effect I agree with genes being irrelevant, I will suport those with the best beliefs.

The Eldar, Tau or even Orks are just an idealized version of humans in their concept , and culturally closer enough to the humanity so you can identify with them and their role in the universe, so yes, the fact that the Imperium are "true" humans is quite irrelevant here.

You don't have to root for IoM, unless you want to burn as a heretic . I personal favor the IoM cause Im human and want to see humans win to be honest and Ive always liked there structure of being like a futuristic Roman Empire and how you can find hints of all the great empires(Britain, German, Mongol, etc.) in there fluff , Also as was stated earlier basically any faction can justify there actions just as country's do today thus I find it pointless to take today's morality views and compare it to the 40k universe IMO. As killing, genocide, and such is probably a day to day practice just as to are society its quite opposite as we try to preserve life by almost any means necessary and only result to violence as a last resort(mind you this is minus all the undesirables of society of course).

Mr Nobody wrote:Necrons are evil because they kill out of jealousy and hate.

I truly for not understand where a current hate could come from within the necron force. At a time in the distant past they transformed their mortal shells for unthinking and unfeeling, souless casings. These new bodies retain no memories of the past life save for the necron lords who seem to concern themselves little with the actual population of a world. In the most recent necron novel I could find, dead men walking, the necrons all seem to simply ignore civilians save for flayed ones.
If speaking about the c'tan however, one cannot deny that they have more evil interests though they to seem to mainly kill to feed, they just toy with the food first.

Klawz wrote:

BrotherStynier wrote:

chowderhead13 wrote:I use this chart as a reference. As I say, Pick your poison...

That's not really correct, I'd think all of the Races, except Orks,Tyranids and maybe Necrons would be categorized somewhere under Evil. Chaos Forces and Dark Eldar under Chaotic Evil, Imperium of Man under Lawful Evil, Tau Lawful Evil, Eldar Neutral Evil. Necrons as True Neutral because they just want everything reverted back to nothing, Tyranids as True Neutral because they are just doing what they are created for and the Orks as Chaotic Neutral, because they dont care who you are they are gonna fight you.

And that is wrong.
The Tau aren't nearly evil enough to be Lawful Evil. Same with Eldar. The Necrons are malicious, and Deldar are Lawful Evil.

Didn't say it was perfect. Still I was under the impression that most Necrons had no free will that they were under the leader ship of Necron Lords that have gone mad each doing his own thing, at least according to the 5th Ed Rule book, and since each Necron Lord is so different I think they are True Neutral, failing that, due to them being hell bent on killing off all Life because it stops the warp they could be Lawful Evil.

As far as the Eldar and Tau its my personal opinion based off of their actions that they are Lawful Evil though I'd be willing to call them Lawful Neutral.

Grakmar wrote

There are no good guys and there are no evil guys.

I agree that there are no good guys, and you can argue about most of the races as to whether they're evil. But IMO the Dark Eldar are flat out evil, and so is Slaneesh.

This all reminds me of a few weeks ago when I watched a movie on Hitler called Hitler: Rise of Evil or something rather. Anyways, I felt bad for him when I saw him get shot, and you know kind of rooting him on. Before any of you point fingers and claim me to be a nazi, please just keep reading. I think the reason I felt bad when he was hurt and what not was because it started off with him being a little boy, and kind of watched him grow up and see the gak he got from people.

What I'm trying to say is that because we see all from his point of view, we see him as the protagonist. It would kinda be like a book starting off with the Dark Eldar, and you see them being killed by space marines and what not, and all of their struggles. So it would only be natural seeing them as the good guys because it is from their perspective, so the same goes with the IoM..

Thank you for reading the whole thing.

EDIT:

Something else just came to me. I think this is all really a matter of perspective. If 10 people see a homeless person steal food from a stand, half of those ten might think he is a good guy, he is just doing what he needs to. The other half might immediately think of him as a malicious thief. So I guess it just depends on your point of view. In my point of view, Tau break their pink manicured nails when they pull their trigger on their pulse rifle. That is why the crisis suits have guns located other than in their hands, because who wants to go back to that place and get their nails done AGAIN? Does this have to do with good and evil? No, but that is my perspective on the tau.

A Black Ram wrote
What I'm trying to say is that because we see all from his point of view, we see him as the protagonist. It would kinda be like a book starting off with the Dark Eldar, and you see them being killed by space marines and what not, and all of their struggles.

Ok, I can see what you're saying. But regardless of circumstances or upbringing, some actions a (almost) universally viewed as evil. Hitler may have had a crappy life, but his actions were still evil. Same thing with the Dark Eldar, (using your example of SM killing they're folks) that doesn't justify them raping and torturing anyone unlucky enough to get caught by them.

IMO some actions in the 40K universe can be labeled as Evil, whether you apply real life morals or fantasy morals.

Grass4hopper wrote:

A Black Ram wrote
What I'm trying to say is that because we see all from his point of view, we see him as the protagonist. It would kinda be like a book starting off with the Dark Eldar, and you see them being killed by space marines and what not, and all of their struggles.

Ok, I can see what you're saying. But regardless of circumstances or upbringing, some actions a (almost) universally viewed as evil. Hitler may have had a crappy life, but his actions were still evil. Same thing with the Dark Eldar, (using your example of SM killing they're folks) that doesn't justify them raping and torturing anyone unlucky enough to get caught by them.

IMO some actions in the 40K universe can be labeled as Evil, whether you apply real life morals or fantasy morals.

To save a long paragraph, let me sum it up:

You are correct.

I think 40k is less black and white, but instead black and gray, with a tiny hint of white.

It's a matter of where you are standing when you view this, then?

To paraphrase (because I to lazy to cut-n-paste than many quotes) more people are going to identify with the IoM, because we're human. Others however will root for another race, I like the Nids because they're motivation is the instinct to survive and reproduce. But that's just my personal opinion, and other people root for other races for there own reasons.

Most people root for IoM, but root for who you like. There is not wrong answer.

Well, my guess for why should the books be written from IoM perspective is, well.... The Eldar mind is far too complex, Orks are... Well, simple. Chaos is a viable option, if you're depraved enough to read something that was spat out of a CSM's head. Tau are also possible perspectives, not sure if it's used elsewhere than in Fire Warrior, which is not a book. Dark Eldar. Again, depravity. Tyranids. Do I really have to explain?

Be free to point out any wrongnesses of my sleep-depraved, headache-induced post.

It isn't about good and evil. It's about survival. IoM has done what it has too to survive which many would say is evil but when compared with the alternative it becomes the better choice.
Many races might be very nice but survival has forced them into doing 'evil' things.
Chaos-Its followers need to kill otherwise they are turned on by their gods.
IoM-Covered.
Orks-If they didn't fight others they would simply destroy themselves.
Eldar-Slightly obvious
Dark Eldar-Also obvious
Tyranids-Need to feed just the food happens to be entire planeatary populations.
Tau-They were trying to establish themselves but ever since the Tyranid invasion they have begun to fight more for survival than empire building.
Chaos Daemons-While this looks pretty damn evil as they technically can't die the gods need to create destruction etc to make sure they are followed and worshipped otherwise they lose power and presumably they die eventually.
Necrons-The Star gods need to feed, admittedly they could eat stars but that would still kill people.

Have i missed any?

I don't agree with you on the Orks, Chaos and Dark Eldar. With Chaos that was their choice entirely, and if they decided to lay down their sword at one point and become a hermit or whatever then the Chaos Gods wouldn't go hunting them down.

As for Dark Eldar it was also their choice. Sure, they can claim later in life they need it just to survive and get them by but in their younger years there was no such thirst and they enjoyed the suffering they cuased just a little too much.

Orks wouldn't destroy themselves, in fact they thrive on carnage even if that means civil wars.

Chaos Deamons ARE evil, the very essence of negative and foul emotions.

Emperors Faithful wrote:I don't agree with you on the Orks, Chaos and Dark Eldar. With Chaos that was their choice entirely, and if they decided to lay down their sword at one point and become a hermit or whatever then the Chaos Gods wouldn't go hunting them down.

As for Dark Eldar it was also their choice. Sure, they can claim later in life they need it just to survive and get them by but in their younger years there was no such thirst and they enjoyed the suffering they cuased just a little too much.

Orks wouldn't destroy themselves, in fact they thrive on carnage even if that means civil wars.

Chaos Deamons ARE evil, the very essence of negative and foul emotions.

I'll admit those were the ones i viewed as the most tenuous.

Tyranids could be viewed as selfish enough to waste resources (sustaing biomass) at the expense of others. Though that's a feeble arguement, given that most animals do the same when they can. It does depend whether you pay any heed to an Aristotle view on life "A 'good' X is 'good' becuase is does what X is supposed to do".

Tyranids aren't evil. They are bad (from the perspective of most inhabitants of the galaxy) but the only diffence between them and other animals is that they are far more successful. They do what any animl would do if it had the ability to take whatever it wanted.

Think about humans, we see ourselves as more intelligent than all other animals but we are still using resources at an unsustainable rate. The Tyranids just take this to the extreme.

purplefood wrote:It isn't about good and evil. It's about survival. IoM has done what it has too to survive which many would say is evil but when compared with the alternative it becomes the better choice.
Many races might be very nice but survival has forced them into doing 'evil' things.
Chaos-Its followers need to kill otherwise they are turned on by their gods.
IoM-Covered.
Orks-If they didn't fight others they would simply destroy themselves.
Eldar-Slightly obvious
Dark Eldar-Also obvious
Tyranids-Need to feed just the food happens to be entire planeatary populations.
Tau-They were trying to establish themselves but ever since the Tyranid invasion they have begun to fight more for survival than empire building.
Chaos Daemons-While this looks pretty damn evil as they technically can't die the gods need to create destruction etc to make sure they are followed and worshipped otherwise they lose power and presumably they die eventually.
Necrons-The Star gods need to feed, admittedly they could eat stars but that would still kill people.

Have i missed any?

The central joke of 40K is that there isn't any significant difference between the IoM and Chaos, except that one side has spikes and the other has spiky winged eagles.

The IoM abuses its population in the cause of defending it against the evils of Chaos just as much as Chaos abuses its population in the cause of bringing down the corrupt Imperial regime.