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Just seen a locked thread, with someone bragging about downloading Codecies.

And it got me thinking, why do people do it? Cards on the table, I am very anti-piracy. I have nothing in my posession that I have not bought and paid for through proper channels. Every DVD, every VHS, every book, every game. All of it bought and paid for.

I believe in paying people for their work. If I fancy a film, I'll either go see it in the cinema, rent it from Blockbusters, or if I really fancy it, just go buy the DVD. Same with music. End of the day, someones job depends on the money coming in from these purchases, and I intend to see them rewarded in the conventional way for my enjoyment.

Yet you always hear about piracy, file sharing etc. I really can't think of anything more selfish than what is essentially stealing. After all, what makes the person doing the downloading so special, they feel they don't have to pay. One argument for it I often hear is 'well, if I like it I'll go out and buy it'. To me, that's not good enough. There are ways to see things without necessarily paying. Borrowing off friends, waiting to see it on telly etc. Hell, if you're patient the second hand market is always there, and the longer you wait typically the cheaper it gets. Whilst these aren't necessarily completely legal (second hand market on certain goods can be a distinct grey area) the creators, distributors etc have still had their slice of the pie, and it's unlikely there are suddenly additional copies in circulation.

So, why do people use software, movie and music piracy? What is the justification?

Well when your paying say £10 for a cd just to upload the tracks to your computer, or a similar cost on Itunes, when you can just donwload them for free elsewhere, and you find that well, just a few tracks don't really cut it, you do wonder why you are still paying for music when everyone else is just getting it all illegally. =/

Not really much of a defence. If you don't pay, and that becomes justifcation for someone else to do so...vicious circle.

That's the price. Don't like it, don't buy it. Don't buy it, don't pinch it, surely?

Music: I have downloaded a handful of albums.

I bought them on vinyl
Then bought them on tape

if you think I am gonna buy them again on CD or MP3... tough

Some people refuse to pay 20$ for an 8 track cd where two of the songs are filler crappy remixs or have 15 other stars on the track. They don't make singles anymore so you just can't buy the song you like. That's why music is downloaded so much. Some people can't afford books for armies they will never play but need to know the rules for. Some people are just poor and angry that the prices of a codex has jumped 100% movie tickets went from 5 bucks to 12. Music went from 8 bucks a cd to 18+. Some people feel that they get ripped off enough by big biz. Non of it is legal. You sound like you are on kind of a high horse. Times are bad, really bad. To the point where black and white can become shades of grey.

I dowload movies and music, if i like it I buy it, it's kind of like a preview function

I don't pirate things because there's so many options for simply downloading it legally these days. But I can see why one would-- it's too expensive being the biggest incentive. It's not for me.

One question actually- are there sites other than itunes to download music from legally? I hate shopping for CDs, and I hate apple, so I'm in a slight quandry with regard to replacing my large music collection that I lost moving house.

You're asking for reasons yet quickly knock them down. Not much of a discussion is it? It's easy to sit on a high horse but at least listen to people when you ask for reasons.

Don't like the price, don't buy it

doesn't cut it when you're asking for a discussion.

People dowload because of many, many factors.

Cost is a massive factor. Double the cost of a blockbuster DVD for a crappy Space Marine movie lead to hundreds appearing for download within two weeks.

Because you can. No other reason.

Because of the fact that you've just spent up and can't afford the new DVD.

Then there's the serial downloader. Giving the bird to the system, knowing in their hippy way that the law can't touch them or will never find them.

There are those who miss episode 3 of the latest series and must download before next weeks episode airs.

Then there are those who still feel genuinely sick that they work 40+ hours a week and cannot afford the latest album/DVD/computer game. They know that the artist is already earning from that single release more than what he can earn in ten years. So they download.

Then there are the people who believe that all information is free to share. Some argue that it doesn't exist in reality so they justify the time on Vuze in that manner.

So it's a misplaced sense of entitlement, is what you're saying?

I can't afford it, so I'll steal it?

I really am amazed this has become even vaguely acceptable.

And then theres the fact that downloading is the fastest way of getting most things.

IMO the music industry as we currently know it will collapse in the next 10 years.

Recorded music will effectively become free, and musicians will make the bulk of their money through live performance, which by definition can't be pirated.

There will simply be much less money in the whole business for everyone involved.

Mr Mystery wrote:So it's a misplaced sense of entitlement, is what you're saying?

I can't afford it, so I'll steal it?

I really am amazed this has become even vaguely acceptable.

You ask for reasons, these are some that I know of, have come across myself in other forums and speaking to friends. The reasons are such; means to make the downloading acceptable in their eyes.

I very much doubt that the music industry will collapse. If anything it is getting bigger and bigger with dreams from even more people of making it big due to X-Faxtor etc. The industry is looking at even more ways of stopping downloads and, if anything, are handling DRM and other methods such as via I-Tunes better each time. It will never go away but the music industry is definately here to stay.

Mr M: It's not that suprising. Piracy has no visible victim- if people think about musicians at all, they probably think of rich and famous people partying all day and night. Stealing harms the person you steal from directly- you nick someone's car, they haven't got one anymore! Create a copy of their car without ever being near them? Seems like a much less serious crime. I agree, it's still bad, but it's not AS bad as stealing for that reason. People have a tendancy to not think about things too deeply.
Not to point fingers or anything, but given your tone, you are a frequent user of dakka, but not a DCM. Do you see donations as seperate to "prices"? They fullfil the same function, Yakface and Lego are just a lot nicer about it

Kilkrazy wrote:IMO the music industry as we currently know it will collapse in the next 10 years.

Recorded music will effectively become free, and musicians will make the bulk of their money through live performance, which by definition can't be pirated.

There will simply be much less money in the whole business for everyone involved.

That's a good thing in my eyes.

Kilkrazy wrote:IMO the music industry as we currently know it will collapse in the next 10 years.

Recorded music will effectively become free, and musicians will make the bulk of their money through live performance, which by definition can't be pirated.

There will simply be much less money in the whole business for everyone involved.

Actually I think there will still be plenty of legal downloading, which will replace CD sales and in the end earn more money than CDs would because it's easier to put a song up for download than it is to have CDs manufactured, shipped, and sold.

But I do believe the RIAA is already falling, it's losing its importance year by year.

Most musicians already do make most of their money through live performances, it's really only the big acts who make the bulk of their money through record sales. In fact it's been the same way since the rise of music videos, when the cost of promoting a record became something only viable for those signed to the major record labels.

I can't vouch for the "Me Too!" generation, but most of the arguments I have in favor of piracy stem from philosophical origin. The labels screw bands out of the majority of the money they deserve. Courtney Love had a surprisingly intelligent piece (with numbers!) on just how little bands make from the record labels and some of their sleazy tactics. The prior manager from Pink Floyd had another pretty good evaluation of them, and he WAS part of the system.

Personally, if I hear music I like, I look it up on riaaradar.com. If they're not big-label, I buy their music, if they are, I'd consider alternate means of getting it (no actual admission of guilt) or I simply go without, depending on the effort I wish to make. I refuse to participate in fueling the evil.

As for codices its so that I can plan armies. It works in GW's favour, If I buy the army I'll buy the dex. If not well I wouldn't have needed it anyway.

I have deathwatch on PDF as it's a tome to lug around and how else am I supposed to make crib sheets other than scan or photocopy my book?

I used to download to get a lot of American shows. I'm not paying for Sky and their appalling attitude and endless advert breaks and adverts plastered across the middle of programmes making things unwatchable. When there's a good show on terrestrial they wade in with the cash and make sure they get the remaining seasons. This is what they did with LOST, and then had the cheek to rub people's faces in it by putting out adverts effectively saying "buy Sky to see the next season".

Well feth them.

But once they became available through things like iTunes I was happy to pay for the convenience, quality and of course lack of adverts.

Howard A Treesong wrote:I used to download to get a lot of American shows. I'm not paying for Sky and their appalling attitude and endless advert breaks and adverts plastered across the middle of programmes making things unwatchable.

But they're just trying to capture the modern American television experience!

Da Boss wrote:Not to point fingers or anything, but given your tone, you are a frequent user of dakka, but not a DCM. Do you see donations as seperate to "prices"? They fullfil the same function, Yakface and Lego are just a lot nicer about it

I'm a frequent user of dakka and a DCM. I use iTunes for my music, and I buy my codex from GW.

I do it just to hurt Mr Mystery's feelings. Otherwise I would never download anything. Every time you download a song a part of his soul withers away but a fairy gets its wings.

Soladrin wrote:And then theres the fact that downloading is the fastest way of getting most things.

People pirate because it's fast, it's free, and it's anonymous. You can take whatever you want and don't even have to figure out how to dodge the sensor at the exit, or random security guards.

They don't make singles anymore so you just can't buy the song you like.

That is misleading as all heck. I can buy individual songs digitally on itunes or on amazon.com, so in effect I can buy just the songs off an album that I like.

Then again, I am old fashioned and think stealing is stealing, be it digits/bits, ideas or physical objects. Heck, when recently selling a motorcycle I wanted to use digital pictures of it that I had copies of but did noit take. I went out of my way to ask the guy who took/owned the pictures if I could use them (he was the one that had sent me the pictures when I got the bike). Without his permission I would neverhave used those images.

Jake

Da Boss wrote:Not to point fingers or anything, but given your tone, you are a frequent user of dakka, but not a DCM. Do you see donations as seperate to "prices"? They fullfil the same function, Yakface and Lego are just a lot nicer about it

That's not a fair comparison. This site gets around 8k logins a day by the looks of things. Do you really think your DCM "prices" cover the cost of running a website with that much traffic? No it's the ppi advertising in the top right corner of your screen which is paying for that. By donating you are doing just that, donating. There are some 'public service' type websites out there that do rely on donations sure, but I'll eat my hat if this is one of them.

Kilkrazy wrote:IMO the music industry as we currently know it will collapse in the next 10 years.

Recorded music will effectively become free, and musicians will make the bulk of their money through live performance, which by definition can't be pirated.

There will simply be much less money in the whole business for everyone involved.

That would MUCH better IMO. The best rock music made was before the 80s, when a band became famous because they busted their asses on stage, and played on tv as much as possible. A band back then became rich because they were good. I think bands like Pink Floyd, The Allman Brothers Band, Black Sabbath and such totally deserve the money they have, they worked for it. Modern music gets cycled so much on gak stations and on the internet that you basically HAVE to like it and then they make an unbelievable heap of cash and for what? Most those groups today dont have talent, and Ive seen many live shows from modern bands, and they SUCK on stage. Likewise Ive seen alot of classic rock bands, and even though they are pushing 60s or older, those guys still are kicking ass on stage, why? Because they still have to.


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whatwhat wrote:

Da Boss wrote:Not to point fingers or anything, but given your tone, you are a frequent user of dakka, but not a DCM. Do you see donations as seperate to "prices"? They fullfil the same function, Yakface and Lego are just a lot nicer about it

That's not a fair comparison. This site gets around 8k logins a day by the looks of things. Do you really think your DCM "prices" cover the cost of running a website with that much traffic? No it's the ppi advertising in the top right corner of your screen which is paying for that. By donating you are doing just that, donating. There are some 'public service' type websites out there that do rely on donations sure, but I'll eat my hat if this is one of them.

Yea whoa, seriously DaBoss your way out of line for saying that. Nice way to insult anyone that hasnt paid for a DCM tag

Because a Pirates Life for me, YAAAARGH! (Pirates > Vikings > Ninja's, btw)

As for the actual topic, I have never downloaded anything without paying for it (other than Albatrosses Album, but he was giving that for free anyway). If I like a song, but don't like the band/singer, what have you, I just look up a video on Google/Youtube and listen to it on my computer. As for buying CD's, I will only do that for those that I love and want to listen on the road and such.

Google Songs include: Katy Perry's E.T., SoaD's Chop Suey, and various other songs

Purchased Song's Include: Crazy Train/Babies by Ozzy, Feel the Noize by Quiet Riot, and some others.

I'm a reformed pirate. I don't play video games at all, but I used to download software for other things (notably Photoshop), I've since discovered the Open Source movement and get most of my software through there.

As to music, I will admit that I've ripped most of my CDs to mp3's, but there's very little music I'm interested in purchasing anymore. If I did, I'd likely use iTunes or some alternative (probably the latter, as iTunes lock me into apple, which I find troublesome) also, most of the time if there's a track I want to hear, I can either YouTube it or it'll eventually end up in one of my Pandora stations.

I don't pirate movies, as RedBox has basically removed the need for it. I'm mildly tempted to lapse with the Ultramarines movie, just because $40 exceeds my movie budget, and I don't want a collectors edition (though I do kinda want the comic). Therefore, I haven't seen it. and am waiting for a regular edition.

I do have pdfs of many GW rulebooks, but I own the physical books as well. It's just convenient to have all the dexes on one Cd if I want to work up a list, or check something for the YMDC forum.

Mr Mystery wrote:So, why do people use software, movie and music piracy? What is the justification?

If it's something I would buy, I will buy it.

So if one of my favourite bands releases and album, I'll buy it on CD. If I really want to see a movie I'll go and see at the movies. Or I'll rent it on DVD.

But there's a whole lot of stuff that isn't worth the price of admission, that I'd watch for free, but would never go out to spend money on. It might be that they're a band who had a decent single, but not so good I'd take a punt on whether the album is any good or not. Or it might be a movie that looked like it might be okay, that I'd never end up spending money to see. I've got a choice there, to either not download it, and therefore not watch it, or to download it and watch it.

And that's the thing. I agree that people deserve to be remunerated for their art, if a crowd wants to see it. So when I want to see something I will pay to see it... but what if I'm not sure if I want to see it, and don't think it's worth money to find out? The answer from the 'don't download' crowd appears to be that I should simply not see it, and that's the end of that. But to the artist, what's the difference between me not seeing a thing, and me downloading it and seeing it, then possibly buying it if it's actually any good?

The difference is that the artist might actually get some money after the download.

A classic example is downloading codices. I will always buy the codex for my army. But what about all the codices of other armies, I'm not going to buy every single one at $40 a pop, but it's good to be knowledgeable about other armies. So I can annoy my opponents before each game and ask to borrow their codex to refresh my memory, or I can download them to review beforehand. In at least one case it's led to me buying the codex and then the whole army, as I downloaded the Ork codex in anticipation of a game and realised 'damn these guys look like fun'. One army later and it's about $1,000 GW wouldn't have seen otherwise...