tyranid hierophant broken?

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**ghazwaagh34**

i may be playing an apoc battle soon where I pit my scratch buiilt hireophant against An'ggrath. I have has several people tell me that the hierophant is the most broken unit in apocalypse and that their hideously hard to kill. One group told nme they won't even allow bio titans in their apoc games any more. I figured that An'ggrath would be an excellent match as the stats between these two monsters are about evenly matched. However I was wondering if other players have had the same issues with unkillable hierophants and if I should feel guilty about running it. This will be my first time actually using it.

**-Loki-**

That's because it is. Even if you don't use the new 3++ warp field save, it's T9, W10 with a 2+, 5++ save and regeneration. Unless there's a lot of D strength weapons flying around the table, your opponent will find himself hard pressed to wound the thing, let alone kill it.

Then consider it throws out 16 S10, AP3 shots at 48" every turn, which can be fired at 2 separate targets, and it's very nasty in assault as well, and it's a ridiculously powerful unit.

I wouldn't call it as powerful as a Warlord titan, but for the actual released Apocalypse models, it's by far the most powerful.

However, if they won't let you use your Hierophant, refuse to let them use their apocalypse units. It works both ways, and apocalypse isn't meant to be balanced anyway.

**MechaEmperor7000**

A Hierophant is suppose to be comparable to a Warhound or even a reaver in strength, with the lesser known Hydraphant being more comparable to the Warlord. Have you faced warhounds before? In my one and only Apoc battle, even a single warhound was incredibly hard for my 1500 point army to take down (I didnt kill it in the end either, it wiped my army before I could deal the finishing blow), mainly because of the ridiculous D weapons it had as well as the fact that it could fire them at different targets over very long distances. Without dedicated counter-super heavies or super-heavy killer datasheets, It's bound to be lopsided.

**-Loki-**

The Hierophant is different to super heavies in that a single lucky shot can't kill it. You need to get past that T9 and 2+, 5++ save 10 times in one turn to reliably kill it. If you don't, there's a good chance it'll not only regenerate wounds, but kill whatever did damage to it.

While things like Baneblades or Titans can occasionally put a wound on it while out of its range, there's a couple of things to consider. Most heavy weapons that can wound it will be within its biocannons range. And if you expect to be able to hit it multiple times while outside its range with big guns, you need to realize it can move upwards of 24" in a turn. 30" if it assaults. That range gap is going to close fast.

Once that range gap has closed, whatever pours fire into it will very likely die in the Hierophants shooting phase. Missile Launcher/Lascannon devastator squad? Land Raider? Predator Annihilator? They're going to cop 8 S10, AP3 shots in the Tyranid players next turn.

The only thing I could see reliably kill it is a thunderhammer/stormshield terminator squad. But then they would be hard pressed to do it. They'd be hitting on 4+ and wounding on 5+, and taking not only the Hierophants hits first, but also wounds from its spore cloud after combat. And then be forced to disengage next turn and not be safely locked in melee.

**MechaEmperor7000**

So comparable difference between the Dreadnought and Wraithlord?

EDIT: I checked out the point cost of the thing. It is rather comparable to a Reaver than anything else. Likewise a Reaver with Vortex Missiles could conceivably kill it.

**-Loki-**

Vortex missiles cause D3 wounds to a gargantuan creature. It'll probably just end up regenerating some of those anyway.

From people I've heard talk about Hierophants, they can take a Reaver pretty comfortably as well.

**MechaEmperor7000**

It will have to depend on the Reaver's loadout I guess. Giving it 2 anti-titan weapons and a Vortex Missile rack will give it a good chance at putting the thing down in 3-4 turns. However the Hierophant will have likely reached combat by then....

**Azure**

I had a thought, and if it's crazy tell me, but a Nurgle daemon army I feel could really take this out no problem. Center it around the Tally and once you hit 20 dead, not hard to do against 'Nids, send it a group of Nurglings at it. Yes, they'll hit after it attacks them, but it can only take down them one wound at a time and they'll be striking back with 5's to hit and 2's to wound no armour save if you've gotten the tally up. 4 attacks on the charge with something like 9 Nurglings bases charging is still going to be alot of wounds handed out.

**-Loki-**

That's the thing. If you can't kill it in one turn, it's going to reach combat, either normally or by sacrificing shooting to move further, and likely regenerate some of those wounds.

Funnily enough, with everyone saying how awful Forgeworld is with rules, the Hierophant wasn't nearly as tough in its Imperial Armour book. Sure, taking off its mass points could be a pain, since it basically meant you had to bypass the mass point 'damage table' 3 times before wounding it proper, but it only had 5 wounds and T8, and its biocannons were assault 1 large blast instead of assault 8 no blast.

edit - Why would Nurglings be wounding it on a 2+? If it's a poisoned effect, they'll be wounding on 6+. It's practically immune to poison. And after the assault phase, the nurglings disengage and it walks away further than they can move to assault again.

**MechaEmperor7000**

All of the superheavies seem to have gotten a buff in Apoc. The Baneblade use to be 650 and, if I recall correctly, didnt have the option to go for 14 14 14 armor.

**-Loki-**

Like, I'm not trying to say the thing is unkillable - it's not. However, it is the nastiest unit in the Apocalypse rulebook with an official model by a long shot, requiring more tailoring of your army to beat than any other unit. If you don't, you're going to have the toughest fight ever trying to bring it down in the middle of a Tyranid swarm.

**MechaEmperor7000**

It's also one of the more expensive models point-wise.

Compared to the other titans though, it's oddly cheap money-wise.

**-Loki-**

Well, it's the same price as a Warhound. I think you're thinking of a Hierodule.

**Gavo**

I've heard people have had success assaulting it with a ton of Dreadnoughts...

Vortex weaponry can work as well.

**MechaEmperor7000**

dunno about you, but on my monitor the Hierophant is 220 something Pounds, while the Hierodule is 92 and the Warhound is 240 for only the body. Two guns together cost 70, so that means the Hierophant is a good deal cheaper than a Warhound in terms of money, while being a whole lot more expensive (and apparently durable) than the Warhound on the tabletop.

**Emperors Faithful**

30-40 Lascannons with BID can tear it apart in a turn or two. Don't know about it being compared to other Super-heavies though.

**MechaEmperor7000**

I'm actually tempted to buy one of the Hierophants now, even if it's just a display piece. 350 doesnt seem THAT unreasonable, especially for a luxury item.

**-Loki-**

Emperors Faithful wrote:30-40 Lascannons with BID can tear it apart in a turn or two. Don't know about it being compared to other Super-heavies though.

Spending all those points on lascannons on everything is going to be great for killing the horde of infantry supporting the Hierophant...

It's kind of why the Hierophant is powerful. It's really, really hard to kill, and requires tailoring your army to killing it. However, once tailored to kill the Hierophant, the army is far, far less effective at killing normal Tyranids. Guard have the advantage that they will have battlecannons on their vehicles though.

MechaEmperor7000 wrote:dunno about you, but on my monitor the Hierophant is 220 something Pounds, while the Hierodule is 92 and the Warhound is 240 for only the body. Two guns together cost 70, so that means the Hierophant is a good deal cheaper than a Warhound in terms of money, while being a whole lot more expensive (and apparently durable) than the Warhound on the tabletop.

Strange, I could have sworn the Warhound body was the same price. I completely forgot about the arms being separate though.

I kind of wish they did separate weapon arms for the Hierophant and Hierodule. A standard 'biocannon' is kind of dull.

**Emperors Faithful**

-Loki- wrote:
Emperors Faithful wrote:30-40 Lascannons with BID can tear it apart in a turn or two. Don't know about it being compared to other Super-heavies though.

Spending all those points on lascannons on everything is going to be great for killing the horde of infantry supporting the Hierophant...

1515 pts for 13 Lascannon teams and 3 supporting CC (you can do this in Apoc

). What is the pts cost of a Heirophant again?

**MechaEmperor7000**

Seems like a Tyranid Apoc army is not only feasable, but also incredibly viable. And the Hierophant is 1250 or so.

**Emperors Faithful**

It makes sense for Tyranids to do well in larger scale engagements. Also, 13 lascannon teams and 3 CC versus 250pts of Nids could still work...

**-Loki-**

You could always back it up with a Mawloc. That would about halve the amount of lascannons firing at it when it's in range.

This also assumes you play nice and use RAI, giving it the old warpfield save. Realistically, you should be giving it the new, 3++ warp field, since the rules for the power have been updated in the new codex. You'd need to be a real douchebag to pull that, though.

**MechaEmperor7000**

The Hierophant would be even mroe broken then, since it also technically has a set of Scything Talons (rerolling 1's) and effectively AOE poison.

**-Loki-**

That's another point. Scything talons. The Hierophant is WS 6, hitting most things on a 3+. It's always going to strike first due to lashwhips as well. I'd gladly sacrifice one attack for the ability to reroll half its misses. Again, RAI, it gets +1 attack instead.

**Brother SRM**

Emperors Faithful wrote:30-40 Lascannons with BID can tear it apart in a turn or two. Don't know about it being compared to other Super-heavies though.

Any thread where this sentence can be written out unironically is a great thread to me.

I figure you could take one of those big bugs out with enough poisoned weapons. Most things are just going to bounce off it, but poisoned weapons could do the trick. Not everybody's Dark Eldar though.

**Emperors Faithful**

Poisened doesn't work as well as you'd like against it.

**Sir Pseudonymous**

How about a ton of shardnet wyches with agoniser hekatrices? Agonisers aren't poisoned weapons (which actually makes them worse in any other situation, since they're always wounding on 4+ but don't get strength related rerolls or the Mistress of Poisons buff from a Court with Lhamaeans), the shardnets effectively castrate it in melee, unless it has special magical rules allowing it to ignore modifiers to its number of attacks, and you can get a whole lot of agoniser hekatrices for 1250... Eight five wych squads in raiders, meaning it would get -8 attacks to a minimum of one, and take roughly 7 agoniser wounds, not to mention a potential eight dark lances (even though they're wounding on a 6...) and 40 splinter weapons (even though they'll wound on a six, and then suffer a 2+ armor save...) firing on it before the charge.

How many wounds does it regenerate per turn? Even if it can just walk away from the wyches, it may still be horrendously wounded and easy to mop up after that...

**-Loki-**

Sir Pseudonymous wrote:How about a ton of shardnet wyches with agoniser hekatrices? Agonisers aren't poisoned weapons (which actually makes them worse in any other situation, since they're always wounding on 4+ but don't get strength related rerolls or the Mistress of Poisons buff from a Court with Lhamaeans), the shardnets effectively castrate it in melee, unless it has special magical rules allowing it to ignore modifiers to its number of attacks, and you can get a whole lot of agoniser hekatrices for 1250... Eight five wych squads in raiders, meaning it would get -8 attacks to a minimum of one, and take roughly 7 agoniser wounds, not to mention a potential eight dark lances (even though they're wounding on a 6...) and 40 splinter weapons (even though they'll wound on a six, and then suffer a 2+ armor save...) firing on it before the charge.

How many wounds does it regenerate per turn? Even if it can just walk away from the wyches, it may still be horrendously wounded and easy to mop up after that...

Problem - they'll all be striking at initiative 1. While you may castrate it's normal attacks, it gets a Gargantuan Creature stomp attack, which hit every model in combat with it once. So there's a good chance most of the wyches will die before even hitting it. Even then, they have to get past its 2+ armour save. At the end of combat, they all take an additional wound on a 4+ from its spore cloud and are forced to disengage, letting it fire or retreat as needed.

There's also the issue of actually getting into combat with it. Anything threatening coming within 48" will die under a hail of biocannon shots, so forget about even using a webway portal. You won't get one close enough.

Poisoned weapons are just a plain bad idea, wounding on 6's.

**Lukus83**

I have played several apoc games with the heirophant. In the end we house-ruled it that it only has a 3++ since the old warp field is technically what is giving it the 2+ save.

And nids still have a huge issue in apoc games. D-weapons ID MC's which means late game you are relying on your swarms to not take 25% casualties and run off the table. Not great.

We also found a thunderhawk is overpowered too. It did very nasty things to my swarm with it's bombing runs.

**AlmightyWalrus**

I guess spamming Shokk Attack Batteries could concievably spell the doom for a Hierophant, or indeed any other superheavy. You just need that magical

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