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-Loki- wrote: Well, unless the new Vindicare assassin shieldbreaker rules are correct, which permanently strip invulnerable saves. That would really hurt the Hierophants day.

But needs 6's to wounds. (Take 6 of them! )


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Arson Fire wrote:Where is everyone getting this 5++ from? The 4th edition warp field power gave a 2+/6++

Hmmm, interesting.

Tarkand wrote:Heh, technically Warp Field specifically states that it gives the Zoanthropes 3++... a Hierophant isn't a Zoanthrope

Is the DoM technically a Zoanthrope then?

Emperors Faithful wrote:Is the DoM technically a Zoanthrope then?

in fluff yes,
in rules no

The FAQ says that DoM is in fact a Zoanthrope.

MechaEmperor7000 wrote:The Imperial Armour Book gives the Hierophant a 5++ warpfield save, as Warpfield was an actual rule, not referencing a long-gone Codex psychic power.

Has a new IA book come out recently that pertains to tyranids? I'm looking at IA 4, and it states that the Hierophant is an 835 Point, T8, W5 creature with 3 Mass points and a 5++ which can be taken is units of 1-3. However, if your refering to the Hierophant in Apoc book however, then it is far different, and in fact the current one I believe...

As far as I know the rules in the Apoc book are more recent than the IA rules, so I at least have been operating under the assumption that we're using the Apoc rules.

If you're gonna field this thing, you should at least use the real model and not some kind of bitz amalgam that you put together. It would be much more impressive and won't leave your opponents feeling like they're fighting a toy.

Footsloggin wrote:

MechaEmperor7000 wrote:The Imperial Armour Book gives the Hierophant a 5++ warpfield save, as Warpfield was an actual rule, not referencing a long-gone Codex psychic power.

Has a new IA book come out recently that pertains to tyranids? I'm looking at IA 4, and it states that the Hierophant is an 835 Point, T8, W5 creature with 3 Mass points and a 5++ which can be taken is units of 1-3. However, if your refering to the Hierophant in Apoc book however, then it is far different, and in fact the current one I believe...

I was actually refering to why people thinks it has a 5++ save, despite Warp field apparently giving a 6+ (I ahve the 4th ed nid codex, but it's buried under a pile of junk atm and I'm not looking forward to diging it out, especially since I only got 4 hours of sleep in the last 48 hours).

Also, if you're arguing over RAW and all that crap when you're playing Apocalypse battles, you should probably just not even play. Apocalypse is about fun, tons of models, huge explosions, etc.

Come to an agreement with your friends and play the game.

I've decided I'm just going to run it 2+, 6++ as the original rules intended for apoc. As for actually buying the forge world model, yeah, that'll happen, when I hit the lottery. I am not paying over $500 for a piece of resin that I won't even want to take out of the house because I paid so much for it in the first place, much less a $1000 for a reaver-titan. A $1000 is a down payment on a new car, not a piece of resin, at least not for me. If in this economy you have the kind of disposable income where you can afford forge world models I can only envy you.

ghazwaagh34 wrote:As for actually buying the forge world model, yeah, that'll happen, when I hit the lottery. I am not paying over $500 for a piece of resin that I won't even want to take out of the house because I paid so much for it in the first place, much less a $1000 for a reaver-titan. A $1000 is a down payment on a new car, not a piece of resin, at least not for me. If in this economy you have the kind of disposable income where you can afford forge world models I can only envy you.

It's actually $350 for the Hierophant - the US and Aussie dollars are about equal, and that's how much my fiancee paid for mine.

As for not using the official model - just don't expect people to be understanding unless your scratch build is top notch. Otherwise they're just going to think you're using one for advantage.

Not likely, most people I know around here scratch build hem. Plus I know for a fact mine is smaller then the forge world model, so how can I nudge an advantage out of it if it has to cross more terrain to charge, yet it's so big there is no conceivable way to give it cover. I scratch built a stomper out of a bucket, card stock, plastic piping and some toy bits and my opponent though it was hilarious, they loved it so much that I played it in two apoc games before the store closed due to mismanagement. More importantly $350 is not cheap for one model, you can start an army for that, or make a car payment! I don't know what your gaming community is like, but it sounds like either no body is paying car insurance or you live in some expensive real estate.

I'm not rich or anything, but its a hobby so I spend money on it

It is just kinda stupid to show up to an apocalypse game with all your models you bought and painted and somebody shows up with a ... bucket.

Can you buy 1250 points of models for $350? Can that 1250 point army (bought for $350) take out a single hierophant? If so, good buy. If not, don't feel bad, the hierophant is frigging awesome!

Also as a joke, model a venomthrope or two on the base (that you have to scratch build yourself LOL mine is based on 12"x12" coroplast (signboard)). Then your lovely Hierophant will have 5+ Cover and defensive grenades, too!

Note-do not really do this. Venomthropes work on hierophants but you have to actually pay the points and field the model BEHIND the 'phant. -end note

If my bucket blows a $$350-$1000 off the table what you call stupid I call really, really funny! I'll give you this, if spending between $350-$1000 brings you some joy then more power to you, I will not argue about spending money on a hobby because you're right about that, I have six 40k armies all that can fight at apoc level, however I always look to save at least 10-20% on my purchase through the likes of CCG armory or sci-fi genre. So let me put in another perspective you might able to appreciate. A land raider costs about what, $50-$60, do you really think it costs GW that much to make it. I have been told by every GW employee that I've known that they mark up the price over 3x its production value. Can you imagine the mark up Forge World plagues their customers with? I love the hobby, but I won't spend life's savings on it. Will I spend $350 on regular G.W. stuff, I might but most likely not in one purchase. Will I but $350 on one piece of resin that I can't use in F.O.C. battles which are almost 95% of the standard games played in store, I won't and can't justify it. Allow me to use the G.W. ork Stompa as an example, only a $100, yet no one I know will buy one because of how infrequently apoc is played. I spent $15 on my bucket, spent less then 2 hours assembling it, and it won two battles right after that. I'd say I got my $15 worth. Difference between bucket heads like me and hard core forge world purists is I play Apoc to have fun, which is why I started the thread in the first place. I won't even get on the table with a guy who has a problem with the bucket because you know right off the cuff the guy probably only plays to win. So in closing man, let's not forget we're essentially grown men playing with toy soldiers, how seriously should we really get about the hobby, for me paying $350 for one resin model is just too serious, so the bucket shall stomp again.


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As for venomthropes behind the Hierophant, now that is funny. I know the rules will allow it, but I would just fell like such a cheese ball doing it that it would definitely be worth a good laugh. I'm gonna do that to someone I owe a good one to. As one nid polayer to another nid player let me ask you this, the spore chimney, technically would that actually protect the phant to. I wonder about the cheese factor since after all the chimnney's are supposed to belch out huge plume of toxic spores which probably would be big enough to obscure even a phant? That might actually be a plausible way to make up for it's lack of an invuln save and keep reavers from blasting it right off the board.

You missed the point completely.

The Hierophant, like all FW items, are Luxury items even by 40k standards. My friend makes a living by selling upscale watches. These cost 4000 dollars a piece. Who uses a watch to tell time when you have a cellphone? (especially since most phones come free with a 3 year contract) By comparison a Hierophant's retardedly cheap. In addition, ALL companies mark things up by that much. You think the material costs come anywhere close to that? They mark it up because that's how they make profit. If they give you the actual worth of the plastics, then all the effort that went in to produce the molds, procuring the resin, casting, packaging and shipping (not the part on the plane, but the part where they deliver it themselves) would be wasted, at least for them.

Luxury items are designed to be visually and aesthetically appealing. Apocalypse, likewise, is also a more upscaled, luxury gaming system, as who can regularly spend a whole day playing a game, let alone dishing out the cash for all those models?

Bottom line is, at the end of the day they are just toy soldiers. It's a hobby like any other. However if all you want to do is win, then use a bucket. For others who enjoy the journey, watching their armies grow, the Hierophant would be like that last coin in your coin collection, that rare card that makes your set complete, that grand trophy you won on the most important sports game of your life.

MechaEmperor7000 wrote:The Hierophant, like all FW items, are Luxury items even by 40k standards. My friend makes a living by selling upscale watches. These cost 4000 dollars a piece. Who uses a watch to tell time when you have a cellphone? (especially since most phones come free with a 3 year contract) By comparison a Hierophant's retardedly cheap. In addition, ALL companies mark things up by that much. You think the material costs come anywhere close to that? They mark it up because that's how they make profit. If they give you the actual worth of the plastics, then all the effort that went in to produce the molds, procuring the resin, casting, packaging and shipping (not the part on the plane, but the part where they deliver it themselves).

Luxury items are designed to be visually and aesthetically appealing. Apocalypse, likewise, is also a more upscaled, luxury gaming system, as who can regularly spend a whole day playing a game, let alone dishing out the cash for all those models?

Bottom line is, at the end of the day they are just toy soldiers. It's a hobby like any other. However if all you want to do is win, then use a bucket. For others who enjoy the journey, watching their armies grow, the Hierophant would be like that last coin in your coin collection, that rare card that makes your set complete, that grand trophy you won on the most important sports game of your life.

Emperors Faithful wrote:

That image brings me horror. Citizen Kane was on my test last week XD

Ah... Sorry?

My favorite is the running joke that printed rules should be ignored because the model with them listed should not be able to use them. Despite GW ruling otherwise at ever single option they have used.
editing to add:
I have previously agreed with this. GW has since proved it is not correct.
People (outside of GW) only assume otherwise if it is not a space marine army, oddly enough.

Oh wait, now it is because they cahnged it from a psychic power.

lol

Is that Hitler Clapping for the Doom of Malan'Tai?

Uh, Think we kinda just said the same thing man, Said I play for fun, Sorry, but most people don't buy a $60000 Porsche just for fun that for fun, they do it because they're trying to impress people. but if i pay $10000 for a rinky dink hynudai which still gets me from A to be, and I have just as much fun hanging out with my friends and it gets me where I gotta go how do i lose. You buy a Porsche to win races, you buy hyundai because you want to get to work and pay bills. You kind of made my own point for me, nobody is buying a $4000 watch just because they think it's funm, they do it becuse it fulfills some need. So my point is if you have to spend $1000 on a mini or $4000 on a watch to enjoy your day, and I don't but can still enjoy mine how do I come off competitive when I'm not even playing the game. My reference to my bucket winning is that I only paid $15 bucks for it and it does what it has to do. In one game where it lost to the blood angels it took out a $100 bane blade in the first turn, The guy beat me with flank march, he was a cool dude, we played a cool game, and we had fun. So guess what it comes down to is some people need a shiny $4000 gold watch to have fun, and some are happy enough to be content with a $30 timex, who's luckier?

Wasn't your post about justifying the 350 dollars spent on it? I did just that. Some people indeed enjoy just having an expensive piece of resin sitting there, for the sole reason of having it. Others enjoy the time it takes from getting the pieces into their hands all to the way where it's assembled and painted, and they could call it their own.

Also, ever go shopping with a girl? I had one drag me up and down the entire city of toronto from north to south, east to west, in a single day looking for a pair of shoes. She said she was only going to spend 20 bucks in china town and ended up blowing 400 dollars by the end of it, all of which came from buying a series of useless nicknacks. While I'll never get it, the experience of shopping for expensive items itself is an enjoyment of it's own. Not saying you have to get it, but you dont have to talk down to others who do.

Dude, really.

40k itself is an expensive, incredibly pointless hobby. You're buying, building and painting toy soldiers. I know people find it offensive, but it's the truth.

Forgeworld is a niche within a niche. It's models are unnecessary. Even in Apocalypse, there's no need for them, even if they are powerful. If you're going to use the rules for a Forgeworld model, either have the model or a really good scratch build, or its just going to piss off the people you're playing against.

I'm curious as to what specifics you're refering to with G.W.'s rulings, can you site a few specific examples?


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First of all let me apologize if It seems as though I'm being disdaining, remember in the post I was responding to the guy did call me stupid, but this is not a who started what affair, I think your simply coming from a different point, you can't ever justify buying forge world to me, any more then you could ever then you can ever make a Chistian justify abortion, I just don't believe in buying them. My point in saying I don't need them is not to be offensive, can you rally take umbrage with me If I don't feel the need to spend a lot of money, yet still enjoy the hobby. Second of all, why would any one who realizes that we are just playing toy soldiers, and that the hobby is ultimately pointless, want get pissed of about a scratch built model. You just said your self, it is a matter of personal satisfaction. If someone chooses to spend a solid G on an luxury model then what call do they have to get pissed at me if I choose not to. So where is the argument? If you don't like the guys model, don't get on the table with them. I gotta ask you guys honestly, has any ever gotten angry with you because of what you put on the table?

Incredibly so. While the gaming buddies I have here respect creative use of cheaper models, when someone just plops down a paper pieplate or a soda can and call it Fateweaver or a land raider, it really irks us, even if it conforms to the dimensional requirements. Moreso for my friends, as they work really hard to save up money for their models (I save, but I dont work nearly as hard as they do, certainly not dealing with drunken idiots who ordered 400 chicken nuggets at 4am in the morning).

Plus, for those who just wanna play the game, there's always DoW.

ghazwaagh34 wrote: If someone chooses to spend a solid G on an luxury model then what call do they have to get pissed at me if I choose not to. So where is the argument? If you don't like the guys model, don't get on the table with them. I gotta ask you guys honestly, has any ever gotten angry with you because of what you put on the table?

Well that's the thing. The rules are there for the luxury model. If you don't have the luxury model, or a really good scratch build of it, don't use those rules. Just go without the unit.

The Imperial Armour 4 had the Rules for the Hierophant for use pre-APO
The GW Apo book has the Hierophant rules for use in 4ed.
There are no rules for it in 5ed.
So as with all APO things you need to verify the rules you want to use pre to the game.
I for one would use the APO 4ed since I think he costs to less for a 3++ (look at the Tzeentch deamon and his costs with a 3++ save).
So he only has: +1A (proof for 4ed rules), -2A due to lash wips and 2+/6++ save
You would also have to clarify the rules for destroyer weapon vs. GC. Destroyer cause ID. In the Destroyer weapons they say it causes 1 Wound as normal.
But GC says such attacks cause d3 wounds. I would use the GC rules as it makes sence imo (Force weapon causes d3 but D weapon only 1?!)

As for tailoring your army list to fight against him. That holds true imo for any APO Unit worth his no of Points.
That are 2 1/2 Baneblades if you did not tailor how do you take those out without suffering?
As a counter I could see:
TAU Broads without FOC you coul take 15 of them with BS4 Thus 13 hits 8 wounds 6++ -> 7 wounds down -> 1 regenerated. He then can kill 2 broads but then would die
SM Lascanon HS teams 5 Teams = 20LS
2 Warhounds with Turbo laser that are more or less 8xd3 wounds. so
Are those sure fire things? no but possibilities and do not forget cover saves which all can use but not the hierophant.
I see that the Hierophant is powerful and he better is for his points.

PS: we kept using 4ed Tyranid rules anyway

To be honest ghazwaaagh, if you were to come into my Apocalypse game, plop a bucket on the table and call it your 'counts as a Hierophant, because I don't believe in buying from FW' I would not let you field it, unless you had done a damn good conversion. Why? Because, in all honesty, I see THAT as the sign of WAAC not Forge World. I mean...I have a Warhound Titan from FW sitting in its bag next to me, and I am excitingly getting it prepped for assembly. I got it because I think its one kick ass model, and will look AWESOME on the tabletop. Its rules never entered into the equation once. It could be the most OP piece of gak you've ever seen, or a complete waster of my time and money as far as rules go and I STILL would have bought it. As has been said, owning, assembling, and painting it would be its own reward.

Now, if I wanted to be a WAAC gamer, I would have found the most competitive Titan rules (probably the Warlord), stuck a few cardboard boxes on top of each other and called it done. I really don't see how your logic of FW=WAAC carries through. To me the opposite is true...someone fielding FW is more likely to be a mature, well developed player who I can an awesome time gaming with. Someone fielding a crappy proxy is more likely to be WAAC who just wanted to field some FW rules, without doing any of the work. At least, that's what I'd assume at first glance....

All in all, just my .02 cents.

For the record, I didn't say you were stupid. I said it is a stupid move if "...".

Other posters have posted pretty good statements agreeing with me. The funny part is a Stompa is cheap and looks great, moreso than 75% of the conversions I've seen of it. The myth that you're putting forth that liking to have real models for the units you're fielding means you're gonna be a WAAC gamer is just something that boggles my mind. Who is the dude talkin' about how his $15 bucket has wrecked face constantly, as opposed to "it looks really cool on the tabletop"?

Let me clarify then where I think you might be misunderstanding me, concerning my scratch the two i built have played every one I've played against has liked. First of all I always ask the opponent if they have a prob with scratch built so I've never had any issues. When you look at my stompa you don't see a bucket walking across the table at you, in fact no part of it the bucket is actually visible. I used cheap material, but fielded something that every one at the shop thought was cool, its not the most impressive thing you've ever seen, but no one had a problem playing it. I call it my bucket because I used a bucket as the main support to form the body. I was being what you call facetious because I'm not taking this seriously, and I surely don't take the bucket seriously either. I don't blame you one bit for getting irritated if someone places a beer can on the table, I've never done that. I told you guys I have six functioning armies, nids, orks, chaos eldar, dark eldar, ultra marines, amd imp guard, and all can play on the apoc level. I don't know many people who have a 40k collection as big as mine, which you must have missed when I said before. You've already agreed with me about simply not playing with someone who's models offend you, which was, in my own post, exactly my point. I wrote that the bucket, as I refer to it, won 2 out of 3 fights its been in, so for $15 bucks the point it it does exactly what it needs to, amusingily represents a stompa in an apoc game. There's no model that kicks face if its only been in three fights. I appreciate you clarifying the stupid remark, and I hope I clarified the misunderstanding with my scratch builts as I've never pissed of any one with what I put on the table. The only guy I know who doesn't like the bucket is a snob I don't play with anyway. So lets put this way, all last year I tried to get people into apoc fights, guess how many managed to successfully schedule given everyone's hectic life, 3. Out of 12 months people could only make 3 fights, so again my point about buying expensive models I'll never get to play for me is perfectly justified. Me7000 you made another point for me about taking a women shopping, I believe there's only two things in life you should spend a grand on in one shot, women and cars. I mean no offense here either, but I don't care how many people agree with anybody, I'm never buying a forge world model, but I figure most of you probably have, which is why were having this correspondence. To which I say, enjoy your resin behemoths, because I will be the first one to admit many forge world models look friggin awesome, but not everyone plays just because they like the aesthetics. I play because I like to play, and I win half the time and lose half the time, that's the fortunes of war. Concerning WAAC, I don't know what that means, but I can tell you this, I'm sorry, I don't judge people on they how look, I'm not judging them on how there models look. You might not meant to entail that in your statement, but it did sort of come off that way. If a guy doesn't have the money to buy FW, and he doesn't have the talent to build one, I'm not going tom judge the dude poorly because of it. I respect your comment about maturity, but think about it ME7000 if a dude wants to play Apoc and he doesn't have the money because he's got a family to support and he really isn't a good converterare you going tell him off. I'm not, I'd feel like a jerk.


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Well all in all lets not forget the reason why I posted this forum: to discuss how to run a hierophant fairly. I believe that running as rules intended, 2+,6++ is the only real way to do that as a 3++ for such a fearsome beast is just simply unfair. So I thank everyone for the advice an opinions. Happy posting and Good gaming.