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-Loki- wrote:it gets a Gargantuan Creature stomp attack, which hit every model in combat with it once.

At an initiative better than one? I don't know Apoc rules, so I was just throwing out the idea of "spam wound on 4+ power weapons against it". The lash whip throws a real wrench in the works there... I don't suppose DE have any real options against it, then, aside from remembering it's Apoc and concocting a legion of enslaved Guard or somesuch to be able to spam weapons that can actually hurt it.

Actually, that sounds like an interesting theme for a Guard army...

JOTWW?
Would be quite funny (obviously not for you) if your Giant Nid MC died immediately to JOTWW.... If it where my job to kill it, i would take 4 Rune Priests in a Drop pod....

Lukus83 wrote:I have played several apoc games with the heirophant. In the end we house-ruled it that it only has a 3++ since the old warp field is technically what is giving it the 2+ save.

Actually the Hierophant does have a 2+ armor save, it's on his profile. The Warp field might have just been there to give him a 5+ invulnerable. It makes sense that his normal save would be a 2+, given his gargantuan size (the Tyrannofex is definately smaller, and has a 2+ save).

The Shokk Attack Gun has me thinking, what about an equal points amount of Eldar Support Platforms outfitted with D-Cannons? They'll have to get in range, but should do enough damage and only one squad will ever be charged by the Hierophant, and two squads will be hit at most. Since apoc has no limit on FoC choices, you can just make each of the platforms a separate unit, so only one platform ever goes down to each gun or assault. With the points of the Hierophant, you can get 25 platforms, and you only need 10 wounds.

as to the JOTWW idea, all gargantuan size beasties are IMMUNE to all psyhic powers without a str value, so it'd bounce off.

Also poison isn't that bad, I mean say a squad of marines and a squad of Deldar warriors somehow survived nearby, guess which one of the squads actually have a (no matter how slim) chance of wounding?

Sir Pseudonymous wrote:

-Loki- wrote:it gets a Gargantuan Creature stomp attack, which hit every model in combat with it once.

At an initiative better than one? I don't know Apoc rules, so I was just throwing out the idea of "spam wound on 4+ power weapons against it". The lash whip throws a real wrench in the works there... I don't suppose DE have any real options against it, then, aside from remembering it's Apoc and concocting a legion of enslaved Guard or somesuch to be able to spam weapons that can actually hurt it.

Yes, the stomp attack is resolved at the gargantuan creatures normal initiative. The rule says nothing about the attacks being made at a lower initiative - it just replaces its normal attacks with the stomp attack. This means you cannot allocate more than one hit against one model, since it stipulates every model is hit once, resolved individually per model.

It's basically there to allow Gargantuan creatures to fight a horde of enemies without giving them a ridiculous number of attacks that would be simply unbalanced against fewer enemies. But it's also a nice way of circumventing a mass of models with weapons that make you lose attacks.

edit - I think the main issue with what makes it so broken is it does everything. It's got guns that can make a titan fold in a single turn (seen it happen). Because it's a toughness based unit instead of AV and has a really good save and regeneration, it's far, far harder to kill than a super heavy vehicle, even with void shields. And added to that, it's basically as mobile as an Eldar titan, being able to fleet 2D6" if it wants to not fire its weapons. You can't melee tarpit it because it can not only fight hordes of enemies in assault very effectively, they are also forced to disengage at the end of the assault phase, letting it move over twice the distance infantry can if it needs to regenerate a bit.

Just toss a 10 man unit of termies with SS's in and try to kill the rest of the army.

The Heirophant was always badly undercosted. It costs less than 3 Baneblades but would without doubt likely win a shooting war (not even needing to bother with assaults) with five or more baneblades

If people are playing it with having a 2+/3++ instead of a 2+/6++ save, then it's even more absurd.

The Heirophant is really probably worth closer to 3000-4000pts.

That said, GW is terrible at costing Apocalypse units. The Warlord can realistically take on like 8,000pts of Leman Russ/Hammerhead/Predator/Land Raider, etc and still probably stand a better then 50/50 chance of winning, despite being only 2500pts. An Imperator, priced at 4,000pts, could probably take on thrice or even quardruple that number of points worth of conventional armor or even something like Baneblades and still emerge victorious.

To be fair, the Warlord and Emperor titans are lethal joke characters, I doubt they took those two seriously when they made em.

Even the Warhound is, if equipped with turbolasers, far superior to his equivalent in conventional or even super heavy armour.

Vaktathi wrote:The Heirophant was always badly undercosted. It costs less than 3 Baneblades but would without doubt likely win a shooting war (not even needing to bother with assaults) with five or more baneblades

If people are playing it with having a 2+/3++ instead of a 2+/6++ save, then it's even more absurd.

The Heirophant is really probably worth closer to 3000-4000pts.

That said, GW is terrible at costing Apocalypse units. The Warlord can realistically take on like 8,000pts of Leman Russ/Hammerhead/Predator/Land Raider, etc and still probably stand a better then 50/50 chance of winning, despite being only 2500pts. An Imperator, priced at 4,000pts, could probably take on thrice or even quardruple that number of points worth of conventional armor or even something like Baneblades and still emerge victorious.

It's be 6+/3++ under the new warp field (the existing 2+ is from the old version of warp field).

Given that the bio titan is looking at one or two (1.33 average) glancing hits per turn against AV 14, and zero penetrating hits, I have a hard time imagining it dealing with many tanks without resorting to assault, it'd be lucky to take out two over the course of the game.

Technically, it's save is a 2+, as that's whats listed on it's profile.

There was a thread like this like 3 weeks ago dedicated on how to kill a hierophant. Apparently it got down to using a inquisitor crossbow.

Requia wrote:

It's be 6+/3++ under the new warp field (the existing 2+ is from the old version of warp field).

It's listed as having a 2+ armor save, the new Warp Field is simply a 3++ invul.

Given that the bio titan is looking at one or two (1.33 average) glancing hits per turn against AV 14, and zero penetrating hits, I have a hard time imagining it dealing with many tanks without resorting to assault, it'd be lucky to take out two over the course of the game.

Are we looking at the same unit? It's got two Bio Cannons, meaning 16 S10 shots averages no penetrating hits against AV14? Are we on the same page here? There should be an average of 2.66 pens and 1.66 glances per turn against AV14 at BS3.

2.65 and 1.35 to be exact (Pen and Glance respectively). However even one pen is a big deal.

Yeah, there was a big thread on how to kill a Hierophant a few weeks ago.....I'll see if I can find it.

Here it is. http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/339860.page 5 pages of talking about how to killa Hierophant. The final suggestion was either massed Eldar Pathfinders (who rend on a 5+) Massed force weapons (if possible) could also harm the Biotitan. That or 2 Turbo Laser armed Warhound Titans.

It links back to this page....

Send in Lukas the Trickster at it let him die and hope the dice gods are on your side and bye bye Hierophant

MechaEmperor7000 wrote:It links back to this page....

Fixed.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/339860.page Here's the proper link.

Vaktathi wrote:

Requia wrote:

It's be 6+/3++ under the new warp field (the existing 2+ is from the old version of warp field).

It's listed as having a 2+ armor save, the new Warp Field is simply a 3++ invul.

Pretty sure it's old warp field was 2+/5++, but I could have been reading something else.

Vaktathi wrote:

Given that the bio titan is looking at one or two (1.33 average) glancing hits per turn against AV 14, and zero penetrating hits, I have a hard time imagining it dealing with many tanks without resorting to assault, it'd be lucky to take out two over the course of the game.

Are we looking at the same unit? It's got two Bio Cannons, meaning 16 S10 shots averages no penetrating hits against AV14? Are we on the same page here? There should be an average of 2.66 pens and 1.66 glances per turn against AV14 at BS3.

I was thinking the same thing. I think Requia thought it had 2 HVCs?

Nids really do seem more suited for Apocalypse-level battles, given that MCs dont measure up as well compared to tanks and Walkers, but Gargantuans seems to pretty much outclass Super heavies.

The Hierophant does, the Hierodules don't really. They're tough little buggers, but a round of concentrated shooting would put it on its face.

That's why I'm astounded the Scythed hierodule in the Ultramarines battle report in the Apocalypse book managed to cause the havoc it did. it killed the Baneblade and a bunch of units. It shouldn't have even gotten that close. But I think they were playing more for story than anything, so Tyranids winning made sense.

Another issue with Tyranids in Apocalypse games is D strength weapons and monstrous creatures. I remember a page back someone mentioned D strength weapons ID monstrous creatures. A Reaver, while not being able to go toe to toe with a Hierophant, would cause more damage to the Tyranid swarm supporting it than the Hierophant could do to whatever army was supporting the Reaver.

Personally, I want to see Apocalypse rules for the Harridan, though I haven't been able to find them anywhere. It should be one tough bird, and with equal firepower to a Hierophant, it should be able to do some serious damage.

I believe the rules for the Harridan would be in Imperial Armor 4.

The Hierodule still packs quite a punch for being almost 1/2 of the Hierophant's cost. In CC it does pretty much the same, especially if you choose the stomp attack (but minus the spore cloud). However it is more squishy than it's larger counterpart and does not possess some of the more "wtf" defenses the Hierophant has. still, T8 is rather hard to crack with anything short of heavy or plasma weapons.

ChrisWWII wrote:I believe the rules for the Harridan would be in Imperial Armor 4.

As I said, I want to see Apocalypse rules for it. I'm probably getting a Harridan this year to accompany my Hierophant, and I'd rather not have 2 sets of gargantuan creature rules. Mainly for simplicity sake, since people I game with will be using Apocalypse versions of their super heavies. Might just have to look around for a fan made datasheet that isn't too over the top.

Vaktathi wrote:

Requia wrote:

It's be 6+/3++ under the new warp field (the existing 2+ is from the old version of warp field).

It's listed as having a 2+ armor save, the new Warp Field is simply a 3++ invul.

Given that the bio titan is looking at one or two (1.33 average) glancing hits per turn against AV 14, and zero penetrating hits, I have a hard time imagining it dealing with many tanks without resorting to assault, it'd be lucky to take out two over the course of the game.

Are we looking at the same unit? It's got two Bio Cannons, meaning 16 S10 shots averages no penetrating hits against AV14? Are we on the same page here? There should be an average of 2.66 pens and 1.66 glances per turn against AV14 at BS3.

I was under the impression it was str 8. I don't have a copy though, so if I could be wrong.

I think you may have gotten the Assault 8 confused with it's strength. For a moment there I did so too.

-Loki- wrote:

ChrisWWII wrote:I believe the rules for the Harridan would be in Imperial Armor 4.

As I said, I want to see Apocalypse rules for it. I'm probably getting a Harridan this year to accompany my Hierophant, and I'd rather not have 2 sets of gargantuan creature rules.

Those ARE the Apocalypse rules for it. Unless GW/FW has published something more recently, the rules presented in IA4 are the rules for using the Harridan. The Hierophant has new rules in the Apoc book, so those replaced the FW ones, but the Harridan still has to use its old rules.

Edit: Spelling...this is why I should not log on to dakka when I get insomnia at 5 am.

Basically use whichever ones are more recent. That's the basic rule for all GW products anyways.

Here's a little math-hammer break for DE trying to take down a hierophant with splinter weapons..

540 shots
360 hits
60 wounds
10 failed saves

That only takes 270 warriors in rapidfire range!!!

I guess poisoned weapons don't work too well.

I wonder how Sliscus' Serpent's Venom special rule would affect things. Since the rule is specific > general, and "specific weapons carried by one specific unit wound on a 3+" is more specific than "all poisoned weapons wound on a 6"...

Of course, it's still not in the least bit feasible to do, as at best you'll have 48 shots at 12", which will cause a wound for every thirteen shots. Even ignoring regeneration, that means they'd have to stay within 12" (without moving, otherwise it's reduced to 44 shots), without suffering any casualties, for about three turns. Yeah... Don't believe that would happen.