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I had a situation come up that I had to ask dakka.

I had Ghazzy w/ snikrott ambush in from the back table edge, and for my slow & purposeful roll I got double 1's. My opponent said that according to the new rule update a model has to completely fit on the board and since Ghazzy base is larger then an inch he doesn't make it all the way. We both ignored this to not be TFG and just play, but I wanted to know how does Dakka play this?

1) is Ghazzy removed from play?
2) is the entire unit removed from play?
3) something else?

If you roll double 1s to move in from a table edge and your model has more than a 1" base, then yes - it would be destroyed.

However, kommandos have move through cover (3d6) as do all independent characters - meaning that you should have rolled 3d6 and picked the highest to see how far you could move on.

you ignore any rule that might stop them from entering from reserves; I believe that rage is even mentioned.

edit page 94 arriving from reserves, second paragraph.

I ask this only because I've never been anywhere that allows Ghazzy to outflank with Snikkrot.

How is this allowed?

The most recent (that I'm aware fo anyways) INATFAQ states:
48B.02 – Q: Independent Characters joining a unit do not gain the unit‟s special rules unless “specified in the rule”. What exactly does this mean and does it apply to special rules that have been conferred to the unit by another character?
A: A special rule must specifically mention that it applies to Independent Characters joining the unit for it to be conferred, and this includes special rules granted to the unit by another character. Please note that this only applies to “special rules” (as defined in their codex) and to the “universal special rules” found in the rulebook, not to Wargear or Psychic Powers [clarification].

Now, I don't have my codex on me, but I don't recall Snikkrots entry saying that IC benefit from this.

You ignore any special rule of the UNIT that may prevent you moving on - so yes, in this case you would ignore S&P

Toxxic snikrott's ambush rule would apply to any IC in his unit. And per INAT:

ORK.62C.01 – Q: Can an Independent Character (such as a Warboss on a bike) join Snikrot‟s unit before the game and arrive with them via „Ambush‟? A: Yes, as Snikrot‟s ability applies to the unit (which a joined IC is part of) [clarification].

Dash, I didn't know about the move through cover, that's awesome. But you're saying that even if I roll triple 1's Ghazzy is removed from play.

This new rule really is bad.

What version is this, because this is the cut and paste from the version I have.

ORK.62C.01 – Q: Can an Independent Character (such as a Warboss on a bike) join Snikrot‟s unit before the game and arrive with them via „Ambush‟?
A: No, as Snikrot‟s ability is a special rule that does not specify it affects other ICs joined to his unit, it does not







Automatically Appended Next Post:
Nevermind, I found the most recent one.

Same thing could happen to Oblits if someone walks them on the board from reserve instead of choosing to DS them.

mrfantastical wrote:I had a situation come up that I had to ask dakka.

I had Ghazzy w/ snikrott ambush in from the back table edge, and for my slow & purposeful roll I got double 1's. My opponent said that according to the new rule update a model has to completely fit on the board and since Ghazzy base is larger then an inch he doesn't make it all the way. We both ignored this to not be TFG and just play, but I wanted to know how does Dakka play this?

1) is Ghazzy removed from play?
2) is the entire unit removed from play?
3) something else?

He's already being TFG by infiltrating Ghazkul and Snikrot together. Remove the entire unit from play. Say "better luck with that BS unit next time" and keep playing.

Toxxic wrote:What version is this, because this is the cut and paste from the version I have.

ORK.62C.01 – Q: Can an Independent Character (such as a Warboss on a bike) join Snikrot‟s unit before the game and arrive with them via „Ambush‟?
A: No, as Snikrot‟s ability is a special rule that does not specify it affects other ICs joined to his unit, it does not


INAT is irrelevant here, which is why its listed as a clarification.

You're correct that ICs don't benefit from a unit's special rule. The unit has the special rule "Outflank" which it loses by the addition of Ghazghkull. However, Snikrot himself has a non-unit special rule "Ambush" which he applies to his *entire* unit. If Ghazghkull is part of the unit, he gets umbrella coverage by a model's special rule.

Toxxic I have INAT 4.2 (don't know if it's the most recent).

Nuggz, thanks for ur insight, since I'm the one playing ghazzy & snikrott. I guess I'm TFG for playing something that's allowed.

Ok so some are saying you ignore the rule, because of page 94. But some are saying you lose the model. Not good.

I wouldn't do it with my Orks because it just doesn't seem "right" to me though it does appear it is allowed by the rules and we play by those instead of gut feelings. Alos I'd guess if it wasn't allowed it would have made it into the recent FAQs.

But since Ghaz does have SnP if you roll ones for his movement then the mob would be lost per the rules as well since they didn't make it on the table. A case of having to take the bad with the good.

Yea you can not do that Ghaz Snik ambush, even in a friendly game because honestly it isn't very friendly at all. Also since Ghaz is slow and purposeful any unit he joins is slow and purposeful which means you roll 2d6 for the whole units movement, and take the highest. You always move at the speed of the slowest dude. So yes you lost anyone that wasn't on a 25 mm base because they didn't fully make it on the board. Also I don't know what that inat Q and A is, but it is wrong and does not correspond with what the GW errata and faq say. Actually they say the exact opposite of what your inat say so I wouldn't use that.

I do the ambush with a big mek that's got a power claw on occastion, but adding gaz to it is kinda bogus. Then again, I don't put the mek in mega armor to take advantage of the move through cover USR.

But yes, if something can't move on the board, it's destroyed. For more information look up a battle between a white scars player and a tau player, It was a euro tourney I believe.

Sol wrote:Yea you can not do that Ghaz Snik ambush, even in a friendly game because honestly it isn't very friendly at all. Also since Ghaz is slow and purposeful any unit he joins is slow and purposeful which means you roll 2d6 for the whole units movement, and take the highest. You always move at the speed of the slowest dude. So yes you lost anyone that wasn't on a 25 mm base because they didn't fully make it on the board. Also I don't know what that inat Q and A is, but it is wrong and does not correspond with what the GW errata and faq say. Actually they say the exact opposite of what your inat say so I wouldn't use that.

wrong

The IC has MTC, as all ICs do
The Kommandos have MTC

So the unit has MTC, so it would be 3D6 pick the highest.

Also, where does the current INAT disagree? You CAN ambush ANY Ork IC with Snikrot, period.

Facts:

1) Joining an IC (like Ghaz or any other IC) to a unit with Snikrott is legal

2) Said unit is allowed to ambush due to Snikrott

3) If unit includes Ghaz or any other IC with SaP, the unit acts as moving through difficult terrain

4) Every model in this specific unit has MTC, so you roll 3d6 and take highest

5) If you roll triple 1s, the unit cannot move fully onto the board because of a rule the unit has. That means that you ignore this and move the unit all the way on the board. IT IS NOT DESTROYED

My opinions:

1) This is totally a legitimate tactic. There's plenty of awesome units that can be built and this is one of them.

2) It's not a particularly smart tactic. Snikrott + Ghaz is complete overkill. You're committing too much of your force at one point.

3) No one using this is being TFG. It's a funny thing to do, it's not a WAAC move.

4) I'm glad the unit isn't destroyed! This is one of those times when the RAI (as interpreted by me) line up perfectly with the RAW.

Agree with Grakmar on all points except fact 2, where he used "outflank" when he meant "Ambush".

Ghaz prevents the Kommandos from using Infiltrate (either for normal Infiltration or Outflanking), since he is an IC who does not have that USR, and thus they lose it. This rule does not apply to NON-USR rules; Snikrot's special Ambush rule is conferred to all models in his unit, and per the IC rules, when Ghaz is attached he is a model in the unit.

Fact 5 is found on page 94, as was previously stated- if a unit has a special rule which would prevent it from coming on the board, that rule is ignored on the turn it arrives from reserve.

Also going to add a "Fact 6": Remember that per the main rulebook FAQ, an IC attached to a unit in reserve cannot leave that unit the turn it arrives on the table. This limits how much damage Ghaz & Snikrot's crew can do when they arrive, as they can only charge two different units if those units are reasonably close together.

http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m1620222a_40k_Rulebook_version_1_2.pdf

Oh, and heck, why not, an "Opinion 5": It's also not a very scary tactic because it guarantees that Ghaz is off the table for at least one turn, and 50% of the time even longer. If he were in a Battlewagon heading to your lines from T1, with his Waaagh rule most if his army is likely to be charging you on turn 2.

Mannahnin wrote:Agree with Grakmar on all points except fact 2, where he used "outflank" when he meant "Ambush".

Ghaz prevents the Kommandos from using Infiltrate (either for normal Infiltration or Outflanking), since he is an IC who does not have that USR, and thus they lose it. This rule does not apply to NON-USR rules; Snikrot's special Ambush rule is conferred to all models in his unit, and per the IC rules, when Ghaz is attached he is a model in the unit.

What??? It totally says Ambush there and not outflank!

Oh, and I should mention, that I'm stuck in a weird timewarp that makes my posts look like they were made at a different time then they actually were. That's why it looks like I edited my post after you pointed out my mistake. I actually edited it for an unrelated reason.


On a serious note:

Good clarification! You're right, there is an important distinction here. Snikrott with an IC is allowed to come in off the side because of his special rule Ambush. If it was just that he was allowed to outflank due to Scout or Infiltrate, it would not apply with an attached IC.

Snik & Ghaz are a powerful unit - but that is a risky tactic. It is no more cheesy than a lot of other things I see...

Orks need Cheese - we are a fungus-based lifeform!

I was recently bushwhacked by Grotsnik/Snikrot & the Cyber-Commandos. That was a powerful unit - and it appeared on turn 2! Ouch.

Better to take a warboss on a bike and join it to Snikrot's unit. If you are really worried about rolling all 1s then just mount Snikrot on a 28 mm base.

I'm really worried about people drawing LoS to my troops, can I model them all lying down?

Afrikan Blonde wrote:Better to take a warboss on a bike and join it to Snikrot's unit. If you are really worried about rolling all 1s then just mount Snikrot on a 28 mm base.

A) Model has to be used with the base supplied, so that would be breaking the rules.
B) As was pointed out repeatedly in the thread, you don't have to worry about rolling all 1s, because p94 says they'll come on anyway.

Mannahnin wrote:

Fact 5 is found on page 94, as was previously stated- if a unit has a special rule which would prevent it from coming on the board, that rule is ignored on the turn it arrives from reserve.

Good to know, however MTC and SAP = 3d6?

Righto.

Ok I'm confused.

I hear what everyone is saying about pg. 94, but how is this different from the ruling GW made:

Q: What happens when a unit arrives from reserves but is
unable to completely move onto the board? (p94)
A: The unit is destroyed and removed from play.

...Wouldn't this apply to the above Kommandos with Ghazzy situation?

I don't have an Ork dex here, but doesn't Ghaz have S & P special rule? If so he can not MTC, and the unit is subject to S & P.

mrfantastical wrote:Ok I'm confused.

I hear what everyone is saying about pg. 94, but how is this different from the ruling GW made:

Q: What happens when a unit arrives from reserves but is
unable to completely move onto the board? (p94)
A: The unit is destroyed and removed from play.

...Wouldn't this apply to the above Kommandos with Ghazzy situation?

No. Because page 94 contains an exception SPECIFICALLY for units which would be prevented from moving onto the board due to one of their own special rules (Rage is specifically mentioned, though S&P would also qualify). The FAQ ruling applies to other things which DO prevent a unit from making it onto the table; like a vehicle immobilizing itself in Difficult Terrain partway on, or an Outflanking infantry unit which comes in on a side which is completely blocked off by enemy units.

Sol wrote:I don't have an Ork dex here, but doesn't Ghaz have S & P special rule? If so he can not MTC, and the unit is subject to S & P.

Where are you getting that idea? Nothing in S&P prevents MTC. An Independent Character with both uses both; he always moves as if in Difficult, but still gets to roll 3d6 and choose the best.

The whole unit moves at the speed of the slowest model, which means the whole unit will be subject to moving as if in difficult terrain. But Ghaz and Kommandos both have MTC, so again, 3d6.

Mannahnin wrote:

mrfantastical wrote:Ok I'm confused.

I hear what everyone is saying about pg. 94, but how is this different from the ruling GW made:

Q: What happens when a unit arrives from reserves but is
unable to completely move onto the board? (p94)
A: The unit is destroyed and removed from play.

...Wouldn't this apply to the above Kommandos with Ghazzy situation?

No. Because page 94 contains an exception SPECIFICALLY for units which would be prevented from moving onto the board due to one of their own special rules (Rage is specifically mentioned, though S&P would also qualify). The FAQ ruling applies to other things which DO prevent a unit from making it onto the table; like a vehicle immobilizing itself in Difficult Terrain partway on, or an Outflanking infantry unit which comes in on a side which is completely blocked off by enemy units.

Actually, pg. 94 states that if a special rule:

Forces you to move in a certain direction

Could stop you from moving

You ignore it the phase you enter from reserves. It's important to note that it's not "Could stop you from moving far enough" it's "Could stop you from moving."
So you can't actually ignore Slow and Purposeful as it doesn't choose a direction for you and there are no circumstances in which it could prevent you from moving. So if you do manage to roll triple 1's on the difficult terrain test you will be destroyed as the unit cannot completely move on.

If a unit has a special rule forcing it to move in a specific direction (such as 'rage', for example) or that could stop it from moving, the rule is ignored in the phase when it arrives from reserve.

Have to agree with Chrysis, the rule from page 94 is only talking about stopping movement, or requiring a unit to move in a certain direction when entering from reserves. What this rule doesn't mention is limiting movement, or not fully entering the board.

Q: What happens when a unit arrives from reserves but is
unable to completely move onto the board? (p94)
A: The unit is destroyed and removed from play.

This seems like the most simplistic application of the Ghazzy Triple 1's situation. Ghazzy didn't make it fully on the board, so Ghazzy AND HIS ENTIRE UNIT ARE REMOVED!

Again, this new GW rule is really bad....

Good point about page 94. It only says you ignore rules that restrict direction of movement and zero movement.

So, I guess Ghaz (or any other model on a base larger than 1") is vulnerable to being destroyed if it comes on with difficult terrain (either on board or because of SaP).

Fortunately, for a model with MTC, this only happens 1 in 216 times.