Tournament Vulkan mechanised 1850pts --- How to improve?

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**Brother Dvorn**

Fire Falcon 1850pt Tournament force

HQ

Vulkan Hestan 190pts

Elites

Terminator Assault Squad- 5xThunder hammer+Storm Shield 200pts
-Land Raider Redeemer- Mult-melta,Extra Armour 265pts

Dreadnaught-2x Twin-linked Autocannons 125pts

Troops

Tactical Squad-Meltagun, Multimelta 175pts
-Rhino 35pts

Tactical Squad-Meltagun, Multimelta 175pts
-Rhino 35pts

Tactical Squad-Meltagun, Missile Launcher 175pts
-Rhino- 35pts

Fast Attack

Landspeeder Squadron-Multimelta, Heavy Flamer 70pts

Landspeeder Squadron-Multimelta, Heavy Flamer 70pts

Landspeeder Squadron-Multimelta, Heavy Flamer 70pts

Heavy Support

Vindicator- 115pts

Vindicator- 115pts

OR

HQ

Vulkan Hestan 190pts

Elites

Terminator Assault Squad- 5xThunder hammer+Storm Shield 200pts
-Land Raider Redeemer- Mult-melta,Extra Armour 265pts

Dreadnaught-2x Twin-linked Autocannons 125pts

Troops

Tactical Squad-Meltagun, Multimelta 175pts
-Rhino 35pts

Tactical Squad-Meltagun, Multimelta 175pts
-Rhino 35pts

Scout Squad (5)- Power fist, shotgun on sarge, melta bombs, combimelta, camo cloaks and bolt pistol+ blades on the rest of the scouts
Fast Attack

Landspeeder Squadron-Multimelta, Heavy Flamer 70pts

Landspeeder Squadron-Multimelta, Heavy Flamer 70pts

Landspeeder Storm- Heavy flamer OR multimelta (which 1?)

Heavy Support

Vindicator- 115pts

Vindicator- 115pts

Whirlwind- 85pts

Any help greatly appreciated

Thanks
Brother Dvorn

**Lord Rogukiel**

First list. The scout squad is useless in the second list, not to mention why would you give a powerfist to a scout seargent? I think it's risky to put 25 points on a weaker model like that.

**Brother Dvorn**

The scouts were there to take the back field, and eliminate enemy support choices, such as heavy weapons, and claim objectives.
I am also worried that the first list does not have very much long range firepower though.

**Lord Rogukiel**

True, but getting in the enemy's face can also be a viable tactic.

I guess you could take the second one, but I would still disagree with having a powerfist on the seargent. The whirlwind would provide longer range fire support but it would be the only unit, with the scouts, behind your lines.

**Brother Dvorn**

Ok, played a couple of games, today, and won 2/3, with the 3rd not finished, but was leaning heavily in the necron players favour.. But do you guys think I have one too many speeders, and are the vindicators worth it, or could be exchanged for something better. I found the problem with vindicators, is they can get flanked way too easily, exposing their vunerable side armour, although they are excellent distractions, but immoblised results and gun down really let them down. Would something else have a better place in this list, and maybe could help me with some longranged firepower?

Are power fists on the sergeants worth it? A mate recommended another land raider, but I'm not sure it will help.

I also seem to be lacking in the anti monolith department, and this will only get worse if I lose the vindicators, and loganwing and the like could be potentially deadly.

Would this list work any better? I think I will miss the vindicators, as they draw the fire away from my landraider, and work as effective shields for the rhinos. When the pie plate hits, it is a bonus! The sternguard could also help out at removing squads, and if I lose the raider and termies I always have a backup option.

HQ

Vulkan Hestan 190pts

Elites

Terminator Assault Squad- 5xThunder hammer+Storm Shield 200pts
-Land Raider Redeemer- Mult-melta,Extra Armour 265pts

Dreadnaught-2x Twin-linked Autocannons 125pts

Sternguard Sqaud(8) -Power fist, 4xcombi-meltas, 2x Heavyflamers 265pts
-Rhino 35pts

Troops

Tactical Squad-Meltagun, Multimelta 175pts
-Rhino 35pts

Tactical Squad-Meltagun, Multimelta 175pts
-Rhino 35pts

Tactical Squad-Meltagun, Missile Launcher 175pts
-Rhino- 35pts

Fast Attack

Landspeeder Squadron-Multimelta, Heavy Flamer 70pts

Landspeeder Squadron-Multimelta, Heavy Flamer 70pts

Heavy Support

Thanks
Brother Dvorn

**unbeliever87**

The first list. It's not bad but definitely needs tuning.

Change the Redeemer to a Crusader.

If you're worried about long range fire power, and you should be, try switching those other two Mutli-Meltas on your Tactical Squads to Missile Launchers and switching your Rhinos for Las/Plas Razorbacks. That more than doubles your long range shooting right there.

The Sternguard are just strange. Drop the powerfist because you don't need it, take combi-flamers instead of heavy flamer so you don't lose special ammunition, find a way to raise them to 10 so you have the option of combat squadding if need be.

**Brother Dvorn**

Why to a crusader?

**Brother Dvorn**

I ok been thinking about what you said and have modified the list drastically and came up with this. Is it any good?

HQ

Librarian- Terminator armour, storm shield, might of the ancients, null zone 140pts

Elites

Terminator Assault Squad- 5xThunder hammer+Storm Shield 200pts
-Land Raider Crusader- Multi-melta, Extra Armour 275pts

Dreadnaught-2x Twin-linked Autocannons 125pts

Troops

Tactical Squad-Meltagun, Multimelta 175pts
-Rhino 35pts

Tactical Squad-Meltagun, Lascannon 175pts
-Razorback- Lascannon and twin-linked plasma gun 75pts

Tactical Squad-Meltagun, Lascannon 175pts
-Razorback- Lascannon and twin-linked plasma gun 75pts

Fast Attack

Landspeeder Squadron-Multimelta, Heavy Flamer 70pts

Landspeeder Squadron-Multimelta, Heavy Flamer 70pts

Heavy Support

Vindicator 115pts

Vindicator 115pts

**Brother Dvorn**

No comments?
I was also wondering about the viability of a standard landraider instead of the crusader

**Eyclonus**

Having played Unbeliever a fair bit, I'd say the difference between the Crusader and Standard isn't too big. On the one hand 2 S9 shots that could, COULD, hurt a transport, or a crap-ton of shots on unit that is about to be assaulted.

He's right about your Tacticals, MMs are only good when you're in Drop Pods, otherwise you'll get like one shot 12" in the entire game. Lascannons aren't the best either as you're paying for +1 S over something you can get for free.

Drop the Vindicators and take Vulkan and more Speeders, preference to Vulkan. You can't get the Melta/Flamer benefit in tournaments without him.

Might Of The Ancients isn't the best power, especially if you put the Librarian with the Terminators, THs auto-stun and are multiple attacks. Nullzone is a good one though.

**Brother Dvorn**

They only stun guys that take an unsaved wound, and do not die, eg eternal warroir etc. Seem to get a reasonable amount of shots with the multimeltas, and the ap1 can be handy against 2+ armies, same with the lascannon too.

Would vortex of doom be better than might on the libby?

I am getting some sponson TLLC for the landraider, but with all those hurrican bolter shots, I find the opponent removes the closest models, denying me the charge, then destroying the terminator squad.

The vindicators seem quite good as a distraction, and help shield the razorbacks, who can shoot over the top. This is especially useful against 1 player who fields 3 rifleman dreadnaughts.

**Eyclonus**

Vortex is good on paper, in practice it relies on blobs, no nearby troops and good scatter rolls...

Gate is ok, if you have a few Teleport homers on squads you can use it to bounce the termies around.

115 points is costly for Distraction, 230 is worse, if he has 3 Riflemans, then get 3 speeders with the TL-MM.

Crusader's don't have to fire at the same unit the Termies assault. Also remember that you're assaulting 9" from the hull not 6".

**Brother Dvorn**

For bouncing wouldn't you need locator beacons, as teleport homers only work for teleporting. Bouncing termies seem a bad idea, since they cannont assault afterwards.

I was thinking of using vortex as another way to get str10 to damage heavy vehicles, and a last ditch tactic at popping a vehicle to assault the contents.

The speeders also wouldn't be able to damage the riflemen first turn, which is when the rhinos will get shot at. Multimeltas are not good against everything, and can be easily destroyed by those riflemen. With only 1 weapon they become useless real fast.

**Eyclonus**

Vortex is too short ranged, I played one guy who used it as his Ace in the Hole and it generally nuked most of his own. Templates at S10 really don't do much to vehicles as 3.5" of scatter can make them S5...

EDIT: Yeah forgot that, part apart about Homer Vs. Beacon.

If the Riflemans are hurting you then consider Drop Pods on a tactical squad with Meltas or an Ironclad with Meltagun and Heavy Flamer. I find the last to be really effective at stopping Riflemans.

**Brother Dvorn**

That could be an idea, but what would I have to lose, as it would effectively end the purpose of the landspeeders. Would the deathwind upgrade be work it?
Against some armies the ironclad would be suboptimal, like necrons, for example, or jump pack marine only lists, or tyranids.

**Eyclonus**

Deathwind is terrible, if it was 18", then yes I would take it, its too short ranged.

First of all, Ironclads are good against Necrons, they instant kill Lords, they have a good chance of breaking the Monolith and AV13 really reduces the chances of them ever getting a Pen off.

Jumppack only lists aren't too common and considering that they'll be BA, its not too hard hard, just place it in a location where its likely to be attacked. The problem with DoA lists is they work like Drop Pod lists, but with an emphasis on assaulting instead of close up melta.

Tyranids... Sort of, MCs will always maim walkers, its a given, but you can put wounds on them, and if his Gaunt mobs are undersized you can go from tarpitting them in combat to wiping them out. Also the medium sized bugs are easily taken out by the Ironclad, provided you can get there.

Probably the best thing about them is that when it assaults units, if they don't have Powerfists, Haywire Grenades or Meltabombs you'll win the combat and force leadership/No Retreat wounds.

**Brother Dvorn**

S would the ironclad ne or effective than rhe 2 speeders? I would have to downgrade the lascannons to missiles, and and crusader back to a redeemer.

**pdawg517**

For a Vulkan list a regular landraider can work! As you have observed, vulkan lists are very short ranged. In my list the only long range shots I have are 2 Rockets, but I still manage to do well even in this environment of 15 ML spam (I'm looking at you SW's!). Out of all the marine armies, Vulkan is the king of mid to short range and you should focus on that.

Personally I still run the Redeemer as it scares the crap out of many players. I disagree with unbeliever on taking the Crusader. Many people say take the crusader so you can move 6 and fire everything. But in my experience the hurricane bolters are not worth the extra 10 points. A S6 AP3 template is MUCH scarier than bolter shots if you can get into range. Another argument I have heard for the crusader is you can sit midfield and not drive it into melta range. But if you are carrying terminators, you are going to be driving into melta range. If you were running terminators I would take the crusader, but with 5 terminators and Vulkan, the Redeemer is the better choice in my opinion.

If you have any questions on tactics regarding Vulkan feel free to PM me. I have some pretty good experience with Vulkan. Here is the list that I currently run with Vulkan in a nutshell:

Vulkan

2 Tac squads w/ PF, Meltagun, RL, in rhinos.
1 Tac squad w/ PF, flamer, MM, in rhino.

5 x Hammernators in LRR w/ MM

Speeder w/ MM and HF
Speeder w/ MM and HF

Vindicator
Vindicator
Thunderfire Cannon

I just like the TFC model so thats why I run it. I know I could drop it and a couple of upgrades (some of which are not listed like Dozer blades) and get a dread with 2xAC's, a AC/LC predator, or even a third vindi but even in tournament play this list does well.

**Brother Dvorn**

Well at this stage I think I will settle on this list below, as it has more long range firepower of the first, but flexible in the deployment of tactical squads.

HQ

Vulkan Hestan 190pts

Elites

Terminator Assault Squad- 5xThunder hammer+Storm Shield 200pts
-Land Raider - Mult-melta, Extra Armour 275pts

Dreadnaught-2x Twin-linked Autocannons 125pts

Troops

Tactical Squad-Meltagun, Multimelta 175pts
-Rhino 35pts

Tactical Squad-Meltagun, Multimelta 175pts
-Rhino 35pts

Tactical Squad-Flamer, Missile Launcher 170pts
-Rhino- 35pts

Fast Attack

Landspeeder Squadron-Multimelta, Heavy Flamer 70pts

Landspeeder Squadron-Multimelta, Heavy Flamer 70pts

Landspeeder Squadron-Multimelta, Heavy Flamer 70pts

Heavy Support

Vindicator- 115pts

Vindicator- 115pts

EDIT: just reakised this is 5pts over, is losing another meltagun to a flamer work getting the lascannons on the land raider? I guess I wouls swap the weapon load outs around, so that the two multimelt squads have them, thus spread ouy my antitank fire. Especially if I combat squad the missile squad, I lose out on less bolter shots when firing at a tank.

**mercer**

My concern in the list is a single Land Raider which is going to attract a lot of attention. A opponent can pack a lot of melta into a army same size of yours and some of it can be suicide which will stop your Land Raider and those Terminators from reaching enemy lines, or buy them more time at least.

Tacticals are ok but problem is multi meltas just won't get into range. I know you're trying to take advantage of Vulkan but missiles would be the best.

Rest is all ok.

**labmouse42**

unbeliever87 wrote:Change the Redeemer to a Crusader.

If you're worried about long range fire power, and you should be, try switching those other two Mutli-Meltas on your Tactical Squads to Missile Launchers and switching your Rhinos for Las/Plas Razorbacks. That more than doubles your long range shooting right there

-1 to this.

Vulcan armies are short-mid range armies with excel at dealing death at 24". A MM at 24" is a much better weapon than a ML at 24". In most games you can get within 24" of a vehicle pretty quickly.

Your Redeemer is a fine delivery system for your termies. Crusaders don't buy you anything -- your army is not hurting for bolter shots. The STR 6 AP3 flamer on the other hand is great for dealing with MEQ. Most of the time you will get 1 flame template over your target and the TL AC, which is enough to cause big problems to most units of MEQ. Rerolling wounds on that AP3 flamer will toast 5 or so MEQ in 1 shot, a very nice tool. I often use this to get marines hiding in cover on an objective.

Take your speeders out of a squadren. That allows them to fire at separate targets, and the squadren rules are not friendly to AV10 vehicles. Those speeders are suicide speeders designed to take down armor then die horribly.

In list 1 you might want to consider dropping a TAC squad for 5 scouts to objective camp. Just give them sniper rifles, and have them just go to ground when their shot at. Their only role is to claim an objective. That would free up some points for more tools, such as a AC/LC pread.

**pdawg517**

Hey Labmouse, Vulkan does not TL the flamestorm cannons. Regardless, wounding MEQ's on 2+ with no armor or cover is very good!

**Redfinger**

pdawg517 wrote:Hey Labmouse, Vulkan does not TL the flamestorm cannons.

Can you point out where it says that? Flamestorm cannons use a flame template, just like flamers and heavy flamers, the flamestorm cannon is a flamer, albeit a big nasty one....

Ashton

**Devastator**

vulkan Tls specific list of weapons
flamestorm cannon is not one of them

and by your logic vulkan TLs avenger as it uses template

**labmouse42**

pdawg517 wrote:Hey Labmouse, Vulkan does not TL the flamestorm cannons. Regardless, wounding MEQ's on 2+ with no armor or cover is very good!

Doh!
Thanks for catching that.

**Redfinger**

Devastator wrote:vulkan Tls specific list of weapons
flamestorm cannon is not one of them

and by your logic vulkan TLs avenger as it uses template

not sure what "avenger" is, but the local meta in my area, and many others I have talked to all agree that the flamestorm is twinlinked as well. poorly written rule is really what it boils down too....

Ashton

**Brother Dvorn**

The speeders are not in squadrons, but I usually run them close together to get cover saves on a couple. I have found multimeltas superior to missiles in most cases, as I close the range quickly, and the AP1 really helps, well, against anything.

So would a landraider redeemer, or just the normal 1 be better in this list?

The losing of a tac squad I have been musing about, its just that, in our club, the missions are usually unique, and sometimes require lots of troops to be effective, then agian, as long as I hold 1 objective, and deny the others to the opponent it would be a good idea.

As a matter of fact, I have 2 combi-predators lying around

But my only problem I have seen with these is fire lanes have to be kept open.

Oh and in our area, we use the INAT FAQ, and it says it does not give the rerolls

Avenger is the librarians flame power by the way.

**Deuce11**

There are so many vulkan net lists around I think you can find exactly what you want by searching the forums.

Similarly landraider variants and libbi powers have been mulled to death. All this info is readily available on dakka and on other sites.

Not trying to troll, just trying to inform.

**Brother Dvorn**

I gave it a quick search, and I only found 2 at 1850pts
I'm looking for what land raider varient would be suited to this specific list. The libby I have decided to drop.

One less rhino would be also easier to hide behind mu vindicator wall

except I have found out that I do not like destroyers, you would have thought vindicators would be built with stronger side armour, considering their origins.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Actually would the thunderfire cannon be a good idea instead the the predator, it has synergy with the scouts too.

**pdawg517**

Many people don't like the TFC because it can be destroyed relatively easy and does not take down vehicles well. I love it because once I crack open a transport that thing can really lay a hurting on a squad.