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Thats what I was thinking, and I have a lovely plastic built model

Brother Dvorn wrote:So would a landraider redeemer, or just the normal 1 be better in this list?.

Let me put it this way.
A redeemer comes with a TL AC and a MM (which will be TL for you)

Both of those weapons are better against all armor types than a TL LC. Use the simhammer in my sig to test that yourself. Even at 24" a MM is a great weapon due to AP1.
The advantage the mars pattern has is range, but your going to be giving that up by transporting termies.

As an added bonus, its cheaper too.

I will be using a multimelta on it anyway, so it isonly really the difference between lascannon and flamestorms, and heavy bolter vs assault cannon

I don't think you are taking enough squads that take advantage of vulkan's special rule.

Don't worry as much about long range support, get in close and put some blood on the walls.

What would you suggest then?

Brother Dvorn wrote:What would you suggest then?

Something along these lines:

190 Vulkan
100 Libby w/PA/null zone/avenger

410 2x10 man Tac squads w/mm/flamer/rhino

400 2x5 man Assault termies w/th-ss

350 5 Land Speeders w/mm/hf

520 2 LRC w/mm

1970 total.

With the remaining 30 points you could buy EA for the LRC's. Or you could drop a speeder for a scout squad with camo cloaks. Or trade a mm/hf speeder for a tml speeder. Almost everything has something to take advantage of vulkans special rule.

One slight problem, its a 1850pt list and 5 landpeeders are rather expensive, both in points, and in money. you can only target a max of 3 squads with them anyway.

I'm definately leaning towards the lascannons on the landraider, since we have a dark eldar player, who loves to field 3 ravagers and lots of raiders. I think long range firepower is still necessary in a vulkan list, as many enemies have fast transports: eg. eldar and can out manouver you and stay away from your shrt ranged weapons. Night shields are even worse.

Brother Dvorn wrote:One slight problem, its a 1850pt list and 5 landpeeders are rather expensive, both in points, and in money. you can only target a max of 3 squads with them anyway.

I'm definately leaning towards the lascannons on the landraider, since we have a dark eldar player, who loves to field 3 ravagers and lots of raiders. I think long range firepower is still necessary in a vulkan list, as many enemies have fast transports: eg. eldar and can out manouver you and stay away from your shrt ranged weapons. Night shields are even worse.

Sorry. I forgot the point total. Just drop 2 speeders and that would make it 1830pts.

I think you should take a regular space marine list.

That is rather vague, but if you want I can list all the items I have, and we can build a list up from there. The only problem with 2x land raider and terminators, is I have to go out and get 1 more of each

Brother Dvorn wrote:That is rather vague, but if you want I can list all the items I have, and we can build a list up from there. The only problem with 2x land raider and terminators, is I have to go out and get 1 more of each

Sorry about being vague. I was posting at a late time for me.

It seems from your need to have long range fire support that a vulkan list doesn't suit your play style.

I would recommend going with a shooty marine list that would include rifleman dreads, ac/las preds and typhoon speeders.

Vulkan is really only worth his points and giving up tactics if you take total advantage of his special rule.

A list really needs to be built around vulkan.

I have so far

Vulkan
Libby in Terminator armour and storm shield
Libby in power armour
Chaplin
Master of the forge on bike with beamer
7 TH + SS termies 2 TLC termies
10 Shooty terminators - 2x chainfist, heavy flamer, and assualt cannon
Land Raider (any varient)
2 x Vindicators
2x Combi preds
5 Rhinos - 2x Las plas turrets so make into razorbacks
30 Tactical marines, and extra sergeants with power fists, and optional combiflamers (3 Multimeltas)
5 man squad of scout snipers
Rifleman/DCCW, with plasma/assault cannon
3x MM HF landspeeders
Dread with DCCW and multimelta + heavy flamer
Drop pod

Could you make a more effective vulkan, or shooty list out of this stuff then?

i'm not sure about the autocannons on the dread. the dread has two viable options for salamanders. the multimelta it comes with, and upgrade with a hvy flamer. make the most out of twin linked.

I use it to pop transports before they reach my lines, then line up a vindicator demolisher shell...

Brother Dvorn wrote:I have so far

Vulkan
Libby in Terminator armour and storm shield
Libby in power armour
Chaplin
Master of the forge on bike with beamer
7 TH + SS termies 2 TLC termies
10 Shooty terminators - 2x chainfist, heavy flamer, and assualt cannon
Land Raider (any varient)
2 x Vindicators
2x Combi preds
5 Rhinos - 2x Las plas turrets so make into razorbacks
30 Tactical marines, and extra sergeants with power fists, and optional combiflamers (3 Multimeltas)
5 man squad of scout snipers
Rifleman/DCCW, with plasma/assault cannon
3x MM HF landspeeders
Dread with DCCW and multimelta + heavy flamer
Drop pod

Could you make a more effective vulkan, or shooty list out of this stuff then?

Well I shall certainly try to make you an 1850pt vulkan list based on this:

190 vulkan
100 libby w/power armor/null zone/avenger

645 3 units of 10 man tac squads w/flamer/mm/sarge w-combi-flamer and bolt pistol in a rhino

555 7 assault termies w/th-ss in LRC w/mm/ea

150 Dread w/mm/hvy flamer in drop pod

70 Land speeder w/mm/hvy flamer
70 Land speeder w/mm/hvy flamer
70 Land speeder w/mm/hvy flamer

Total 1850pts.

In general:

Put vulkan and the libby in with the assault terminators. Use one tac squad for static scoring and charge into the middle with the other 2 tac squads for area denial. Dread drops in for close in goodness. Speeders do what speeder do.

I just don't see that list going too well, as most of that stuff could easily be knocked out from afar.

Would only having 2 scoring units be a good idea?

Brother Dvorn wrote:I just don't see that list going too well, as most of that stuff could easily be knocked out from afar.

Would only having 2 scoring units be a good idea?

Well considering there are 3 scoring units, I wouldn't worry if 2 scoring units are a good idea or not.

It definitely sounds like you don't know how to play a vulkan list or it doesn't fit your play style or a combination of both.

I don't see you having a solid shooty marine list as you don't have rifleman dreads, typhoon speeders or ac/las preds. Especially since it appears that your tac squads only have mm's for heavy weapons.

Thats the only weapon I like giving them, and it has saved me many a time. I have other weapons.

I have 2 ac/lc predators, as I said earlier, I thought everyone called them combi preds these days. I have 1 rifle man dread, and can easily make a second, did you miss that in my listings?

I fyou go all out on something, you are bound to get a weakness, and thats why I want at least a little amount of long range transport killing firepower, as it denies the enemy the manouverability, and I can capitalise on this.

I use vulkan, since he is worth his points even without the twin linking, and makes most of my units that much better, especially with the amount of 1s I roll. The landspeeders would be easily enough to convert some typhoon missile launchers for them.

Brother Dvorn wrote:Thats the only weapon I like giving them, and it has saved me many a time. I have other weapons.

I have 2 ac/lc predators, as I said earlier, I thought everyone called them combi preds these days. I have 1 rifle man dread, and can easily make a second, did you miss that in my listings?

I fyou go all out on something, you are bound to get a weakness, and thats why I want at least a little amount of long range transport killing firepower, as it denies the enemy the manouverability, and I can capitalise on this.

I use vulkan, since he is worth his points even without the twin linking, and makes most of my units that much better, especially with the amount of 1s I roll. The landspeeders would be easily enough to convert some typhoon missile launchers for them.

Sorry, I saw rifleman dread w/ccw/plasma cannon. Are those extra options you have for it? A rifleman is usually 2 tl-autocannons. I had no idea that combi preds were ac/las preds.

What other heavy and special weapons do you have for your tac squads?

Vulkan is truly only worth his points in a salamanders army. He is a huge force multiplier. Not to take advantage of that is losing half the battle. Unfortunately, in what you think is a vulkan list, most of your units don't take advantage of his special rule. I cannot stress this enough apparently.

2 rifleman dreads, 2 ac/las preds and some typhoon ml speeders are a good start for a shooty marine list.

The two land raider list may be effective against some armies, but I am just not seeing it working against stuff like dark lance spam, where I would end up like a siting duck.

The dread has the option to be rifleman or those options listed above.
I have missile launchers, lascannons, a heavy bolter (not very effective) I have flamers and melta guns for the tactical at the moment, but I can always get more if needed.

Brother Dvorn wrote:The two land raider list may be effective against some armies, but I am just not seeing it working against stuff like dark lance spam, where I would end up like a siting duck.

The dread has the option to be rifleman or those options listed above.
I have missile launchers, lascannons, a heavy bolter (not very effective) I have flamers and melta guns for the tactical at the moment, but I can always get more if needed.

Well for a shooty marine list (with a counter assault element) you could try this:

125 cassius
100 libby in power armor w/null zone/avenger

615 3 10 man tac squads w/flamer/ml in a rhino

460 5 th/ss termies in a land raider w/mm

180 2 land speeders w/tml/hb

240 2 ac/las preds

125 rifleman dread

1845pts

Cassius and the libby goes in the land raider with the assault termies. Just stay back and shoot. Turns 4 and 5 advance some tac squads and the termies. If someone gets in your face, use your termie squad to beat some face.

Very simple and straight forward.

While that is a pretty good list, it lacks enough melta to really hurt heavy armor. If that LR goes early, then LR's will basically have a field day against that army. In a gunline army, you can scrape by with 2 tacticals, even at 1850. This would free up some points to get some fast melta in the form of suicide speeders or attack bikes. Since that list is not vulkan, i am not advocating melta everywhere, but having fast melta never hurt any list! (except your enemies!)

pdawg517 wrote:While that is a pretty good list, it lacks enough melta to really hurt heavy armor. If that LR goes early, then LR's will basically have a field day against that army. In a gunline army, you can scrape by with 2 tacticals, even at 1850. This would free up some points to get some fast melta in the form of suicide speeders or attack bikes. Since that list is not vulkan, i am not advocating melta everywhere, but having fast melta never hurt any list! (except your enemies!)

I agree and disagree with some of your points.

Looking at his list, I think that he has enough melta to cover the situations. What is melta needed for? The answer is AV13 and 14. How many AV13 and AV14 vehicles do you find in your local meta?

For AV 10-12, that list has all the required tools for the job. TL-AC, ML, LC. All of those will destroy transports, and light armor with plenty of range to spare.

I agree that you can squeeze by with 2 tacticals, especially if you combat squad them. If you want a 3rd troop type, you can also go with a squad of scouts.
Personally, I use bikes as troops (marine bike army) so I play a different kind of troop type :\

On the node of suicide speeders, in a non-vulcan army they generally are not worth the risk you pay. The chances of destroying high armor targets don't meet their costs -- unless they are TL targets. If you do want to use them, run them up the sides of the boards and use them at 24" until you have the perfect shot. A MM at 24" is a better weapon than a LC vs AV 12 due to the AP1. Lining up those shots vs the sides or rears of tanks can be very useful. The trick here is to get more than 1 shot from the speeder. Once you have managed to do that, then you can suicide them, as that changes the cost-to-kill ratio into your odds. If you play blackjack, think of it as splitting on 8s, you want to maximize your chances of a successful outcome instead of hitting on a 12 (which would be just a suicide deep strike)

All that being said, fast MM is not a bad idea at all. They would add a lot of good harassment capabilities to your army. Just don't throw them away for nothing.

Brother Dvorn wrote:Fire Falcon 1850pt Tournament force

HQ

Vulkan Hestan 190pts

Elites

Terminator Assault Squad- 5xThunder hammer+Storm Shield 200pts
-Land Raider Redeemer- Mult-melta,Extra Armour 265pts

Dreadnaught-2x Twin-linked Autocannons 125pts

Troops

Tactical Squad-Meltagun, Multimelta 175pts
-Rhino 35pts

Tactical Squad-Meltagun, Multimelta 175pts
-Rhino 35pts

Tactical Squad-Meltagun, Missile Launcher 175pts
-Rhino- 35pts

Fast Attack

Landspeeder Squadron-Multimelta, Heavy Flamer 70pts

Landspeeder Squadron-Multimelta, Heavy Flamer 70pts

Landspeeder Squadron-Multimelta, Heavy Flamer 70pts

Heavy Support

Vindicator- 115pts

Vindicator- 115pts

Your first list that you posted is 100% fine. The only change I would make would be missiles on all tacticals for a little bit of ranged flexibility (assuming you combat squad in objective games.)

As far as the Land Raider goes, go with the Redeemer. Its very fluffy for Salamanders, and is also extremly effective as an assault vehicle. With extra armor, it can move 12", dump assault troops, and wipe out a squad of MEQ and lower with its flamestorm cannon. No other variant can wipe out 200 points of marines in a single shot, not even close. My last game I played on Sunday, my Redeemer wiped out a 230pt squad of Khorne beserkers in a single shot on turn 3, right before he conceded. Crusaders are usefull when you need a large transport capacity (you don't), and the regular land raider is a piece of garbage (don't let people convince you otherwise). If you want lascannons, take a predator.

Like I said, your first list is fine. If you are really looking for an overhaul, then I would drop the Vindicators, get another rifle dread, and throw upgrades on your tacticals in the form of powerfists and combi meltas. This will really add some punch to your troop choices. New list would look like this:

Vulkan-190pts
5x TH/SS, Redeemer, MM, EA- 465pts
2x TL AC Dreadnought- 125pts
2x TL AC Dreadnought- 125pts
10x Marines, Missile, Melta, Combimelta, Pfist, Rhino- 245pts
10x Marines, Missile, Melta, Combimelta, Pfist, Rhino- 245pts
10x Marines, Missile, Melta, Combimelta, Pfist, Rhino- 245pts
Land speeder, MM/HF- 70pts
Land speeder, MM/HF- 70pts
Land speeder, MM/HF- 70pts

1850pts

scubasteve04 wrote:
Vulkan-190pts
5x TH/SS, Redeemer, MM, EA- 465pts
2x TL AC Dreadnought- 125pts
2x TL AC Dreadnought- 125pts
10x Marines, Missile, Melta, Combimelta, Pfist, Rhino- 245pts
10x Marines, Missile, Melta, Combimelta, Pfist, Rhino- 245pts
10x Marines, Missile, Melta, Combimelta, Pfist, Rhino- 245pts
Land speeder, MM/HF- 70pts
Land speeder, MM/HF- 70pts
Land speeder, MM/HF- 70pts

1850pts

Dead hard list there.

I like that list, although, without the distraction the vindicators present, I am wondering if the rhinos will receive more fire because of it, and be knocked out earlier in the game, along with the redeemer, and if immobilised, only be able to use half of its complement of weapons to full effect.

Also I am concerned about the lack of ap2 weapons, especially since the last tournament had at least two wolf guard lists in terminator armor present.

I am wondering out of the original, and the list above, which would perform better when facing off against each other?

@scubasteve04: I dont usually combat squad the multi melta squads for objective games, but if there is a back objective, I would combat the missile launcher squad, as it has the range to be useful while sitting there.

Thanks for all your help so faar
Brother Dvorn

Brother Dvorn wrote:I like that list, although, without the distraction the vindicators present, I am wondering if the rhinos will receive more fire because of it, and be knocked out earlier in the game, along with the redeemer, and if immobilised, only be able to use half of its complement of weapons to full effect.

Also I am concerned about the lack of ap2 weapons, especially since the last tournament had at least two wolf guard lists in terminator armor present.

I am wondering out of the original, and the list above, which would perform better when facing off against each other?

Thanks for all your help so faar
Brother Dvorn

The rhinos will not be top priority for low-mid ranged anti tank fire due to the presence of your MM/HF speeders. They can put out a lot of hurt on any enemy, and considering how easy to kill they will be top on the target priority.

For the enemies heavy weapons, versus Vindicator front armor 13 and Land Raider 14; the Land Raider is going to be top priority. The Land Raider is a 655pt death star, and your opponent is going to be furiously trying to shut it down no matter what. You just gotta get those Termies into assault as quick as possible before the Land Raider blows up. Remember that the redeemer is an assault transport first, and fire support second.

Vindicators are not a strong vehicle. They are easily shut down with side armor shots or assaults. All it takes is 1 roll on the damage chart to shut it down (shaken, stun, weapon destroy, immobile) all cripple the Vindicator. They are also short ranged, and due to the fact you are running a short ranged vulkan list, you need that extra range the Dreadnoughts can provide.

As for AP 2, your running a vulkan list. You have 10 melta weapons, 3 powerfists, 5 master crafted thunder hammers, and a master crafted relic blade. Ignoring armor should be a non-issue.

If the lists faced off, it would really be a toss-up, considering how identical the lists are. I would give my list a slight advantage. With the Rifleman Dreadnoughts, it will be easier to obtain air superiority, and I also give my troops a slight advantage with the combi-meltas and fists for assaults. The main goal for my list would be to shut down your vindicators and Land raider with my speeders and rhinos, and using long range anti-tank fire to prevent that happening to my own Land Raider.

It is really impossible to say which list is better. It all will boil down to personal play style, and opponent play style and list. I will echo scubasteve, ignoring armor really is a non issue.

However, I disagree about vindicators. I find that they usually will soak up a lot of shots that could be directed and land raiders and rhinos. They are big enough threat to anything that they really can't be ignored.

pdawg517 wrote:It is really impossible to say which list is better. It all will boil down to personal play style, and opponent play style and list. I will echo scubasteve, ignoring armor really is a non issue.

However, I disagree about vindicators. I find that they usually will soak up a lot of shots that could be directed and land raiders and rhinos. They are big enough threat to anything that they really can't be ignored.

Your right about the Vindicators. I use three in my Imperial Fists lists for the exact same reasons you state. They are not essentially a bad unit, but they have glaring weaknesses as well. With a Vulkan list, you are already pigeon holed into taking woefully short range weapons in a long range metagame; Vindicators are just further adding to the problem of short range.

The thing about the Heavy support for Vulkan list, is there is nothing really that benifits from Vulkans chapter tactics directly. If the core of your army is based on melta, flamer and TH, then you need to add some long range fire support with your heavy slots (or in this case, elites). This is why I suggested dropping the Vindis for another Rifleman Dreadnought, and spending the rest of the points on worthwhile upgrades on tactical squads.

would flamer, combi flamer tactical squads (with fists) be a better Idea than double melta? Or at least 1 of these squads.
I still like the idea of the multimeltas in the tacticals, to provide area denial, and some extra ap 1 for extra goodness. I would only equip 2 of these like this though.

Good idea or not? (I don't normally combat the tacs anyway, at least have 2 non combated units in a game)

Brother Dvorn wrote:would flamer, combi flamer tactical squads (with fists) be a better Idea than double melta? Or at least 1 of these squads.
I still like the idea of the multimeltas in the tacticals, to provide area denial, and some extra ap 1 for extra goodness. I would only equip 2 of these like this though.

Good idea or not? (I don't normally combat the tacs anyway, at least have 2 non combated units in a game)

The speeders 3x HF, redeemers 2x flamestorms, vulkans HF, 3 Frag missiles, 24 bolters, assault cannon, 4 twin linked auto cannons should all be sufficient anti horde. Stick with the meltas. Even with a true horde list (kan wall, Nids with lots of bugs ect) you can still use the meltas on something (a Kan or an MC) then use bolters on the hordes

Multimeltas aren't terrible on tactical squads, but using the free missile gives you a nice chance to add some long range anti-tank to your list (that vulkan lists seriously lack). In objective games, always combat squad the Missile in the back in some cover, and if they are on an objective, be sure to go to ground if they take heavy fire. In a kill point game, keep all tactical squads at full strength.