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Ok kids, forgive me if this has been dealt with yet, but...

1. Dreadknights can take Personal Teleporters
2. Units with Personal Teleporters are Jump Infantry.

so:

1. Can a Stormraven (which can carry Jump Infantry) take a Dreadknight in its cabin?
2. Does a Dreadknight with a Personal Teleporter no longer count as a Monstrous Creature?



-Dis.

This has come up before, and rather recently.

There's no firm decision on YMDC, yet, as most of us haven't seen the finalized codex. But, it appears that a DK with Personal Teleporters does become Jump Infantry.

That means that they are no longer MCs (no 2D6 armor penetration, no firing 2 weapons, easier job of getting cover, can ride in Stormraven, etc).

I'm in the boat that this is a mistake in GW's part and will be fixed when the errata for C:GK is released (in 2-3 months as a very rough guess).

Nothing says you cant be an MC JI, in which case you couldnt embark in the Stormraven.

I have the final book in-hand, and I can't find anything that would imply otherwise.

I agree it's probably a mistake, but the RAW is as it is for now.

Thanks!
-Dis.

Last I checked Jump Infantry and Monstrous Creature were not mutually exclusive types. I.E. you can simultaneously be a monstrous creature and jump infantry. Certainly this has been the case in every codex thus far.

That'd be like a hive tyrant with wings still a mc moves like ji. I say no it can't embark

nosferatu1001 wrote:Nothing says you cant be an MC JI, in which case you couldnt embark in the Stormraven.

Good point. I've always assumed the different unit types were mutually exclusive, but I can't find anything that explicitly says this.

But, everything else that changes unit type is assumed to loose it's previous one. Is there any other model out their with wording indicating it would end up with multiple unit types?

chaos0xomega wrote:Last I checked Jump Infantry and Monstrous Creature were not mutually exclusive types. I.E. you can simultaneously be a monstrous creature and jump infantry. Certainly this has been the case in every codex thus far.

There has never been a unit that is both Jump Infantry and MC before now. Previously, MCs that got wings or upgrades like that were said to "move like jump infantry". They didn't actually become jump infantry.

Yonush wrote:That'd be like a hive tyrant with wings still a mc moves like ji. I say no it can't embark

A Tyrant moves like Jump Infantry. A DK with the personal teleporter is Jump Infantry.

If it's both, and since there's no rule in the MC section that disallows an MC from embarking a transport, and the Storm Raven makes a specific allowance for Jump Infantry (which the DK "is", as opposed to "moving in the manner of", does that allowance take precedence?

Just a little devil's advocacy here, btw

-Dis.

disdainful wrote:If it's both, and since there's no rule in the MC section that disallows an MC from embarking a transport, and the Storm Raven makes a specific allowance for Jump Infantry (which the DK "is", as opposed to "moving in the manner of", does that allowance take precedence?

actually in the transport section it says that only infantry can embark on transports unless stated otherwise.

I spent some more time with the codex today, and there are a couple of points about this. Granted the rules specifically state one thing, and a house rule is required to change it until the FAQ comes out.

There is nothing that specifically overrides being a monstrous creature, but it does say, Models with personal teleporters are jump infantry. So the question becomes can a model be 2 unit types at once? The answer would be nothing prevents you from being two unit types at once. So you could either be jump infantry or a monstrous creature or a monstrous creature jump infantry.

As a slight aside, the TO that runs our local tourneys has already said that they will not count as jump infantry, but rather a monstrous creature that moves as jump infantry. So a house rule allows you to overcome this problem, but in a strictly RAW environment it's up in the air.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

disdainful wrote:

Yonush wrote:That'd be like a hive tyrant with wings still a mc moves like ji. I say no it can't embark

A Tyrant moves like Jump Infantry. A DK with the personal teleporter is Jump Infantry.

If it's both, and since there's no rule in the MC section that disallows an MC from embarking a transport, and the Storm Raven makes a specific allowance for Jump Infantry (which the DK "is", as opposed to "moving in the manner of", does that allowance take precedence?

Just a little devil's advocacy here, btw

-Dis.

Now you have a double edged sword. You are jump infantry, but you are also a monstrous creature. The BRB says only infantry can embark, unless there is a special rule that states otherwise. So you can because your jump infantry, but you cannot because you are still also a monstrous creature.

The heart of this issue is the question of whether or not you cane be two unit types. If so, then the assumption would be that, beholden to the 'infantry only' embarkation prohibition, something that was an MC (in addition to whatever else it might be), it would be disallowed from embarking a transport.

If not... I'd give up 2d6 armor penetration so I can hop in the cabin of a Stormraven (counting as two models for purposes of capacity, no less! )

-Dis.

I'm actually really surprised that the Storm Raven wording in Codex: Grey Knights doesn't say it can carry 1 dreadnought or 1 MC (dreadknight) or something to that effect. The rules seem to support that a MC JI combo would have the restrictions of both (not being infantry to embark) but the fluff in me wonders how a dreadknight differs from a dreadnought as far as transportation is concerned.

zeshin wrote:I'm actually really surprised that the Storm Raven wording in Codex: Grey Knights doesn't say it can carry 1 dreadnought or 1 MC (dreadknight) or something to that effect. The rules seem to support that a MC JI combo would have the restrictions of both (not being infantry to embark) but the fluff in me wonders how a dreadknight differs from a dreadnought as far as transportation is concerned.

It's incredibly larger and heavier?

In a friendly game get it out of your systems and have a laugh at a disembarking Dreadknight. In tourneys expect to be laughed out of the building if you expect to pull a RAW argument for this one.

BlueDagger wrote:

zeshin wrote:I'm actually really surprised that the Storm Raven wording in Codex: Grey Knights doesn't say it can carry 1 dreadnought or 1 MC (dreadknight) or something to that effect. The rules seem to support that a MC JI combo would have the restrictions of both (not being infantry to embark) but the fluff in me wonders how a dreadknight differs from a dreadnought as far as transportation is concerned.

It's incredibly larger and heavier?

In a friendly game get it out of your systems and have a laugh at a disembarking Dreadknight. In tourneys expect to be laughed out of the building if you expect to pull a RAW argument for this one.

It's taller I'll give you that, and I would never even think of a using any rules loophole to put one in a transport like they were Jump Infantry.

Unit Types seem to be mutually exclusive; but no matter on that, more to the point:

The Dread Knight becomes JI, Personal Teleporters convert to the new type, not add Jump Infantry to the unit.

the Wording is exactly the Same as for SM Bikes, Jump Packs in all SM Codices, Jetbikes for Farseers/autarcs, etc. To say that the PTs add JI to the unit type then Captains on Bikes can enter transports.

Kommissar Kel wrote:the Wording is exactly the Same as for SM Bikes, Jump Packs in all SM Codices, Jetbikes for Farseers/autarcs, etc. To say that the PTs add JI to the unit type then Captains on Bikes can enter transports.

That's a good point. This is what I was hoping for. Thanks!
-Dis.

Kommissar Kel wrote:
the Wording is exactly the Same as for SM Bikes, Jump Packs in all SM Codices, Jetbikes for Farseers/autarcs, etc. To say that the PTs add JI to the unit type then Captains on Bikes can enter transports.

Black Templars with jump packs move as jump infantry, and as such may be swallowed by JotWW. They may also embark on transports.

Black Templars aren't real SMs; every body knows that

OK, most Space-marine Codices. Although once again we have another example of an upgrade that grants "Moves like" vs "Becomes" So my point is not invalidated.

Kommissar Kel wrote:the Wording is exactly the Same as for SM Bikes, Jump Packs in all SM Codices, Jetbikes for Farseers/autarcs, etc. To say that the PTs add JI to the unit type then Captains on Bikes can enter transports.

The wording is actually very different;

1. Wording for PT- Models with Personal Teleporters are Jump infantry.

2. Wording for Space marine bike- Models equipped with space marine bikes follow all the rules for bikes as described in the Warhammer 40,000 rulebook.

3. Wording for Jetbikes- Eldar Jetbike: These are fitted with twin-linked shuriken catapults, increase the rider's toughness by 1 point, and in addition confer a 3+ armour save to the rider. See the Warhammer 40,000 rulebook for details of the movement of Eldar Jetbikes.

So Space marine bike captains follow all the rules for bikes, and as bikes are not allowed to embark without special rules they can't be brought into the debate. Units that are upgraded to have jetbikes (Autarch/Farseer/Warlocks) have their unit type changed to bike (as jetbike is just a subset of the bike rules) as per the codex so it's specifically written what happens there, they become that unit type. None of those are worded the same as Personal Teleporters.

Here we have something that is different, as they are Monstrous creatures to begin with. The codex says models with PT are jump infantry. It doesn't say that it changes the unit type to jump infantry, it doesn't say that it is only jump infantry, it just says they are jump infantry. I take that to mean they are affected by things that affect Jump infantry, and are affected by things that affect Monstrous creatures. If something targets one type but not the other (JotWW), you are affected by it as you are of a unit type that is listed in the power description, and cannot claim that both types must be listed to be affected.

Supporting evidence: the Chaos Daemon codex which has plenty of upgrades which change the unit type of a model (heralds changing to cavalry, jetbikes, and jump infantry), and then for Daemonic Flight specifically says "move like Jump Infantry".

Or CSM where one upgrade (wings) specifies "moves in the same way as Jump Infantry" vs. jetbacks which cause the model to become Jump Infantry. In contrast to the Daemonic Steeds which specify "changes the unit type of the model to ____".

And then there's the Tyranid book...

If the Personal Teleporter specifies that the model becomes Jump Infantry, then GW's finally managed to publish a rule allowing a MC to stop being a MC.

I say no to the embarking in a Raven.Its an MC and i will be playing it as moves like Jump Infantry,not is JI.Would anyone really try to say its embarked,the thing is controlled by a marine in termie armour after all.

Pedro Kantor wrote:I say no to the embarking in a Raven.Its an MC

Then you must not have given it a personal teleporter!

Show me the rule saying it is ONLY Jump infnatry, and you'd have a point.

There isnt one. It is jump infantry AND an MC, and as such cannot embark.

Remember the previous Tyranid codex, and the previous Tyranid FAQ which had to include a statement that putting wings on a Hive Tyrant only made it move like jump infantry instead of turning it into jump infantry? Unit types have always been exclusive.

So, nosferatu1001, please show us the rules allowing a unit to have multiple unit types, because otherwise "It doesn't say they can't be" sounds suspiciously like "It doesn't say they can't."

my 2c worth?

i do not see why it can not embark...

1. the rules are loop holey about JI vs MC
2. the raven can carry vehicles (dreadnaught)

if all fails use common sense?

Yeah their is no way for it to be both an MC and JI they are mutually exclusive and trying to make it a hybrid of both unit types simply does not work.

For instance how does it shoot it must follow both the rules for infantry shoot (as per the JI rules) and the MC shooting rules (as per the MC rules). It can't follow both!

However it is completley obvious what the Teleporter does here and it just allows the Dreadknight to move as JI and gain the 30" shunt. You can houserule it to follow the RaW that he becomes JI until an FaQ comes out if you wish.

solkan wrote:Supporting evidence: the Chaos Daemon codex which has plenty of upgrades which change the unit type of a model (heralds changing to cavalry, jetbikes, and jump infantry), and then for Daemonic Flight specifically says "move like Jump Infantry".

Or CSM where one upgrade (wings) specifies "moves in the same way as Jump Infantry" vs. jetbacks which cause the model to become Jump Infantry. In contrast to the Daemonic Steeds which specify "changes the unit type of the model to ____".

And then there's the Tyranid book...

If the Personal Teleporter specifies that the model becomes Jump Infantry, then GW's finally managed to publish a rule allowing a MC to stop being a MC.

The chaos daemon codex is more specific than the GK codex though. It states, "and changes the herald's type from infantry to..." which is far more detailed than a sentence of, "models with personal teleporters are jump infantry." It doesn't specifically say that they change their type to jump infantry, it just says they are. It doesn't say they lose their previous unit type either.

Either way we can argue until we're blue in the face about this. If we use a little (god forbid) common sense, and extrapolate how it works for everything else where it says "moves as jump infantry" we can settle on middle ground. We're all so stuck in arguing by RaW that we can't see the forest for the trees, and we're all intelligent people and can draw a conclusion to 2+2 without needing to know how to multiply 2x2.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Show me the rule saying it is ONLY Jump infnatry, and you'd have a point.

There isnt one. It is jump infantry AND an MC, and as such cannot embark.

How is it both moving as infantry(6", effected by terrain), and Jump infantry(12", ignores terrain) at the Same time? If it is both it must follow both rules, the only way to do that is to only ever move as infantry.

If it becomes both MC and Jump Infantry than it is just a MC(That can shunt once per game).

Gotta agree with what (frightfully) appears to be the minority decision here: This oversight has been ruled on multiple times over multiple editions, it simply becomes a monstrous creature that moves as jump infantry, can deep strike as jump infantry, takes dangerous terrain tests as jump infantry, and all the rest whilst remaining a monstrous creature. I know the current edition Tyranid codex was mentioned, but IIRC the 4th edition codex simply stated "counts as jump infantry" and not "moves as jump infantry". And it was ruled as above, to be a MC and JI simultaneously. You weren't able to 'hide' the tyrant behind a brood of gargoyles.

My opinion: this is a laughable question. It definitely falls into the category of question ranted about last year by Yakface.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Kommissar Kel wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:Show me the rule saying it is ONLY Jump infnatry, and you'd have a point.

There isnt one. It is jump infantry AND an MC, and as such cannot embark.

How is it both moving as infantry(6", effected by terrain), and Jump infantry(12", ignores terrain) at the Same time? If it is both it must follow both rules, the only way to do that is to only ever move as infantry.

If it becomes both MC and Jump Infantry than it is just a MC(That can shunt once per game).

Jump infantry count as infantry in most cases, to the point where they can choose to move 6" as infantry or 12" as jump infantry. They don't stop being jump infantry, they just choose not to 'jump' that turn, to avoid dangerous terrain tests and what not.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Show me the rule saying it is ONLY Jump infnatry, and you'd have a point.

There isnt one. It is jump infantry AND an MC, and as such cannot embark.

^ is correct.

And we all know that what GW has done in the past has no bearing on any new codex, so even if there was a rule that said you can not be more than one unit type (No such rule) that does not mean a future Codex could not over ride that and list something as a Monstrous Jump Infantry Creature.

As for moving, Jump infantry can move 6" while not using the packs and 12" while using the packs, the DK would be able to choose as well.

As for shooting it can shoot 1 gun for being JI, and is allowed two for being a MC. so it can fire two.