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There you go:

"Normally each model in a firing unit may fire a single weapon. Some models, including vehicles, may be able to fire more than one weapon, as detailed later." (pg. 15)

No other mention of the amount of weapons you can fire in the shooting section.

Also note that the MC shooting rules do not "override" the infantry rules.
Normal models have permission to fire one weapon.
MCs have permission to fire one weapon or two weapons at the same target.

The permissive ruleset means (boiled down) you may do anything you have permission to. You have permission to do anything allowed minus anything explicitly forbidden.
As "Follows rules for infantry" does not forbid the use of more than one weapon(see quote), any "Shoots like Infantry"/MC type would be allowed to shoot two weapons.

SonicPara wrote:I can't believe that this is a real argument.

It's a real argument for two reasons:

1) The wording on this rule is different from any other jump pack wording, so it behaves differently from other jump packs.

2) Throughout C:GK, there's a ton of rules problems and ambiguities. This upsets people, and they take out some of their frustration on message boards.

General_Chaos wrote:Dreadknight into a Stormraven, really? Do you people seriously exist in someones FLGS?I feel sorry for them, Glad I don't have clowns like you guys around me, but then again I just wouldn't play someone that trys to pull most of this crap waving the RAW flag.

+1

Also, whoever wrote "a stormraven can flat out 24" and allow an assault" should be pointed at and laughed at everytime he goes to a gaming event. You can only disembark and shoot/run anywhere it flew through.

Jidmah wrote:

FlingitNow wrote:

Monsterous Jump-Infantry Creatures work perfektly fine unter 5th edition rules.

How do they shoot? They are required to shoot as both MCs and normal infantry...

Did you read the linked post? I explained it in depth there. Rules of the units type always take precedence over infantry rules as per BRB pg. 52, so they are able to shoot two weapons.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Brother Ramses wrote:The FAQ will indeed say it moves as Jump Infantry. The reason why is because it was designed to be the counter to demon princes which when they have wings move as Jump Infantry. However as it is written right now, they do not move as Jump Infantry, they are Jump Infantry.

Keep barking up the combined unit tree of JI/MC. Unit types are clearly defined. JI/MC is not on that list, therefore it does not exist.

Note that a Fast/Tank is not defined either. So no more fast tanks for blood angels?

Actually you do as those are types of vehicles under the Vehicles unit type. I don't have my BRB here but it is is under the same reference that allows fast skimmers. Besides, we are talking about UNIT TYPES not VEHICLE TYPES. Unit types are defined on page 4 and 5 for Warhammer 40k, JI/MC is not included.

As for your pg. 52 reference, you have permission to use the singular unit type for each entry, not multiple unit types. This is a moot point anyway because you did not have permission to create an illegal unit type JC/MC in the first place so didn't have permissin to even check for unit type conflicts in the first place.

Nothing in the rules for Unit types (either in the front or middle of the book) says that a unit cannot be two types at once.

The Dreadknight rules make it a MC. And the wargear makes it JI. Nothing says it stops being an MC.

If my opponent insists that he wants it to stop being an MC, it will lose all the benefits and abilities of being an MC.

As we all know, the FAQ will probably errata it to "move as" jump infantry.

Mannahnin wrote:Nothing in the rules for Unit types (either in the front or middle of the book) says that a unit cannot be two types at once.

The Dreadknight rules make it a MC. And the wargear makes it JI. Nothing says it stops being an MC.

If my opponent insists that he wants it to stop being an MC, it will lose all the benefits and abilities of being an MC.

As we all know, the FAQ will probably errata it to "move as" jump infantry.

Nothing says that you can so therefore you can't arbitrarily create a unit type.

The fact that page 4 and 5 specifies the unit types of Warhammer 40k and the fact that MC/JI is not included is RAW that it is not part of Warhammer 40k. See what I did there?

no, but MC is a unit type, and JI is a unit type, in this badly written rule it would be a MC and JI. not a MC/JI

No, it doesn't say,

A unit with personal teleporters is also Jump Infantry.

It says,

A unit with personal teleporters is Jump Infantry.

Nothing more, nothing less. It is just Jump Infantry.

Yup. It's Jump Infantry, because the personal teleporter adds that. It's a Monstrous Creature, because its rules say it is.

Nothing in the rules indicates that a unit cannot have two types. Nothing in the Personal Teleporter rules specifies that it stops being an MC.

Mannahnin wrote:Yup. It's Jump Infantry, because the personal teleporter adds that. It's a Monstrous Creature, because its rules say it is.

Nothing in the rules indicates that a unit cannot have two types. Nothing in the Personal Teleporter rules specifies that it stops being an MC.

Nothing in the rules tells you to add Jump Infantry to the unit type. It flat out tells you that it is Jump Infantry.

A UNIT with personal teleporters is UNIT TYPE.

not

A UNIT TYPE with personal teleporters is UNIT TYPE.

Nothing in the rules allows you to be two unit types which is enforced by the specific unit types on page 4 and 5 of the BRB.

Some people are having a real heart attack over this. Neckbeards aside, I think that the FAQ is going to clear it up. I don't suppose anyone thinks that GW meant to have a monstrous creature turn into jump infantry? It was a clerical error in the book, of the kind GW is known for.

It's going to get corrected in the errata, so lower your blood pressure and relax- it was a mistake.

"Tank" and "Skimmer" aren't mutually exclusive. Why should unit types be?

Neither the list of unit types on page 4 and 5, nor the more detailed rules on 51-55, say a unit can't be two types.

I can see how you'd INFER that a unit can only be one type, but there is no such explicit or implicit statement in the rules.

The rules for the DK say it is an MC. The rules for the wargear say it is JI. Those are the rules making it each. No rule says it stops being an MC.

Mannahnin wrote:"Tank" and "Skimmer" aren't mutually exclusive. Why should unit types be?

Neither the list of unit types on page 4 and 5, nor the more detailed rules on 51-55, say a unit can't be two types.

I can see how you'd INFER that a unit can only be one type, but there is no such explicit or implicit statement in the rules.

The rules for the DK say it is an MC. The rules for the wargear say it is JI. Those are the rules making it each. No rule says it stops being an MC.

Tank and Skimmer are unit type VEHICLES. Unit type VEHICLES have specific rules in their entry how the types of VEHICLES can be mixed and what they become. You have none of those permissions for the Unit Types as defined on page 4 and 5.

And again, NOTHING SAYS YOU CAN. That is what you need to prove for you to be allowed to do it in Warhammer 40k.

The rules do indeed say that a DK is a MC. The rules also say that anytime that DK (unit) has a personal teleporter it is Jump Infantry (unit type). Notice that it is not MC, it is Jump Infantry. It says it is Jump Infantry. Not Jump Infantry/MC or Jump Infantry and Monstrous Creature. It is says it is Jump Infantry.

So where is the RAW that says it is not Jump Infantry/MC or Jump Infantry and Monstrous Creature? Look closely,

A unit with personal teleporters IS JUMP INFANTRY.

.....IS JUMP INFANTRY.

.........JUMP INFANTRY.

Kinda sneaky, but it is there.

And the Deadknight rules say it is a Monstrous Creature. There is your permission.

Sigh. Shouting and bad sarcasm ftl there BR.

The unit type is MC and the unit type is JI.

BROTHER RAMSES,

I dont understand what youre even arguing about anymore...... From what it looks like, youre saying giving the DK a personal teleporter nullifies that it is a MC, however, there is absolutely NOTHING saying that a personal teleporter replaces the fact it is a MC.

ARE YOU SAYING AN IC IS NO LONGER AN IC WHEN GIVEN A JUMP PACK?!

Biggest migraine ever,

signed by: DK (yes those are my initials lol)

Death Reaper: When I wrote JI/MC I meant "Monstrous Creature and Jump Infantry"

Brother Ramses: A model that is Jump Infantry and a Monstrous Creature

.....IS JUMP INFANTRY.

So no rules conflict here.

It does not say "instead", "becomes", "only" or any of the other word that could allow us to remove the type Monstrous Creature.

The dread knight works perfectly fine in RAW with two types, there is no reason to argue against it, unless you really want to throw them out of storm ravens.

DeathReaper wrote:
And the Deadknight rules say it is a Monstrous Creature. There is your permission.

The Deadknight rules say it is a Monstrous Creature.

.....is a Monstrous Creature.

.........is a Monstrous Creature.

Kinda sneaky, but it is there.

QFT because it does not have a personal teleporter. Glad to see you finally following the rules.

Defeatmyarmy wrote:BROTHER RAMSES,

I dont understand what youre even arguing about anymore...... From what it looks like, youre saying giving the DK a personal teleporter nullifies that it is a MC, however, there is absolutely NOTHING saying that a personal teleporter replaces the fact it is a MC.

ARE YOU SAYING AN IC IS NO LONGER AN IC WHEN GIVEN A JUMP PACK?!

Biggest migraine ever,

signed by: DK (yes those are my initials lol)

Strawman is strawman. Why even try and argue a unit special rule with a unit's unit type? Two completely unrelated rules. Good job there.

Jidmah wrote:Death Reaper: When I wrote JI/MC I meant "Monstrous Creature and Jump Infantry"

Brother Ramses: A model that is Jump Infantry and a Monstrous Creature

.....IS JUMP INFANTRY.

So no rules conflict here.

It does not say "instead", "becomes", "only" or any of the other word that could allow us to remove the type Monstrous Creature.

The dread knight works perfectly fine in RAW with two types, there is no reason to argue against it, unless you really want to throw them out of storm ravens.

The statement alone of, "is Jump Infantry" precludes it from being anything else other then Jump Infantry. You keep saying nothing stops it from being MC, except that is exactly what it does by clearly telling you that a unit with a personal teleporter is jump infantry. If gives you no direction to retain previous unit type, it gives you no direction to include previous unit type, and it gives you no direction to combine previous unit type.

A = B where A is a unit with personal teleporters and B is Jump Infantry.

Please try plugging any of your hybrid creations into that statement and make it a true statement. You can't. Even with your JI and MC premise you are not fulfilling that statement. That would be like saying salt water is salt, which is a untrue statement.

I'm pulling a lesser of two evils here...

Which is worse for you?


That's your answer.

Scipio Africanus wrote:I'm pulling a lesser of two evils here...

Which is worse for you?


That's your answer.

Interestingly enough, right now as RAW, neither.

You can face a Dreadknight that is highly mobile but is less powerful.

or

You can face a Dreadknight that is more powerful, but that is not highly mobile.

With the FAQ and/or errata you will more then likely have a powerful and mobile Dreadknight.

Units can have more than one type.

Brother Ramses wrote:

DeathReaper wrote:
And the Deadknight rules say it is a Monstrous Creature. There is your permission.

QFT because it does not have a personal teleporter. Glad to see you finally following the rules.

Now I will need a Page Number that removes Monstrous Creature from its unit type when you add a personal teleporter.

If you can find that page this discussion will end.

abortedsoul wrote:Some people are having a real heart attack over this. Neckbeards aside, I think that the FAQ is going to clear it up. I don't suppose anyone thinks that GW meant to have a monstrous creature turn into jump infantry? It was a clerical error in the book, of the kind GW is known for.

It's going to get corrected in the errata, so lower your blood pressure and relax- it was a mistake.

+1.Its going to be an MC that ' moves as ',i cannot believe anyone would ever say they want to lose all the MC rules and go with JI.I have yet to see anyone at my flgc or my flgs try and talk their way into transporting it in an SR.I am easy going and relaxed when it comes to gaming,but there are limits,even for me.

The statement alone of, "is Jump Infantry" precludes it from being anything else other then Jump Infantry. You keep saying nothing stops it from being MC, except that is exactly what it does by clearly telling you that a unit with a personal teleporter is jump infantry. If gives you no direction to retain previous unit type, it gives you no direction to include previous unit type, and it gives you no direction to combine previous unit type.

A = B where A is a unit with personal teleporters and B is Jump Infantry.

Please try plugging any of your hybrid creations into that statement and make it a true statement. You can't. Even with your JI and MC premise you are not fulfilling that statement. That would be like saying salt water is salt, which is a untrue statement.

So you want statements, huh? I can do that.#
First lets format your statement:

A = B where A is a unit with personal teleporters and B is Jump Infantry.

I. Statements:
1) A = B
2) X = a unit with personal teleporters
3) Y = Jump Infantry
4) A = X
5) B = Y

=> B = A
=> Y = A
=> Y = X
=> Jump Infantry = a unit with personal teleporters

II. Inserting "Stormboyz" for B.

=> Stormboyz is Jump Infantry
=> Stormboyz is Y
as Y = X
=> Stormboyz is X
=> Stormboyz is a unit with personal teleporters

quod errare demonstrandum.

Your statement has been proven as wrong, no need to insert anything.

If you disagree, don't forget to remind everyone fielding any kind of jump infantry against you of their 30" shunt teleport.

Jidmah, can I just say how much I appreciate your common sense approach to this - and your logic.

FYI

Tyranid Hive Tyrants from the previous codex (still used with this set of main rules) had this brought up periodically.

It still did not change that it was also a MC.

Giving it wings had it "treated as Jump Infantry in all respects."

Jidmah wrote:

The statement alone of, "is Jump Infantry" precludes it from being anything else other then Jump Infantry. You keep saying nothing stops it from being MC, except that is exactly what it does by clearly telling you that a unit with a personal teleporter is jump infantry. If gives you no direction to retain previous unit type, it gives you no direction to include previous unit type, and it gives you no direction to combine previous unit type.

A = B where A is a unit with personal teleporters and B is Jump Infantry.

Please try plugging any of your hybrid creations into that statement and make it a true statement. You can't. Even with your JI and MC premise you are not fulfilling that statement. That would be like saying salt water is salt, which is a untrue statement.

So you want statements, huh? I can do that.#
First lets format your statement:

A = B where A is a unit with personal teleporters and B is Jump Infantry.

I. Statements:
1) A = B
2) X = a unit with personal teleporters
3) Y = Jump Infantry
4) A = X
5) B = Y

=> B = A
=> Y = A
=> Y = X
=> Jump Infantry = a unit with personal teleporters

II. Inserting "Stormboyz" for B.

=> Stormboyz is Jump Infantry
=> Stormboyz is Y
as Y = X
=> Stormboyz is X
=> Stormboyz is a unit with personal teleporters

quod errare demonstrandum.

Your statement has been proven as wrong, no need to insert anything.

If you disagree, don't forget to remind everyone fielding any kind of jump infantry against you of their 30" shunt teleport.

The only problem with this is that it is not "All Jump Infantry have personal Teleporters", it is "Units with Personal Teleporters are jump infantry."

Unless I'm just misunderstanding your demonstration but it seems to mean your demonstration implies that all jump infantry have personal teleporters.

That being said, it's a ridiculous notion to think that the dreadknight would stop being an MC just because it had a personal teleporter and it's very clear and plain what the intention of GW was when writing in the option for the DK.

It does show this, based on Ramses colored statement being right. Of course stormboyz do not have Personal Teleporters, which results in a conflict, and thus proves the entire statement wrong.

Had to do similar exercises dozens times in college, finding a conflict is a common practise to prove a statement wrong.

It is a false logical arguement because he's take <=> and => to be the same.

Jidmah wrote:

The statement alone of, "is Jump Infantry" precludes it from being anything else other then Jump Infantry. You keep saying nothing stops it from being MC, except that is exactly what it does by clearly telling you that a unit with a personal teleporter is jump infantry. If gives you no direction to retain previous unit type, it gives you no direction to include previous unit type, and it gives you no direction to combine previous unit type.

A = B where A is a unit with personal teleporters and B is Jump Infantry.

Please try plugging any of your hybrid creations into that statement and make it a true statement. You can't. Even with your JI and MC premise you are not fulfilling that statement. That would be like saying salt water is salt, which is a untrue statement.

So you want statements, huh? I can do that.#
First lets format your statement:

A = B where A is a unit with personal teleporters and B is Jump Infantry.

I. Statements:
1) A = B
2) X = a unit with personal teleporters
3) Y = Jump Infantry
4) A = X
5) B = Y

=> B = A
=> Y = A
=> Y = X
=> Jump Infantry = a unit with personal teleporters

II. Inserting "Stormboyz" for B.

=> Stormboyz is Jump Infantry
=> Stormboyz is Y
as Y = X
=> Stormboyz is X
=> Stormboyz is a unit with personal teleporters

quod errare demonstrandum.

Your statement has been proven as wrong, no need to insert anything.

If you disagree, don't forget to remind everyone fielding any kind of jump infantry against you of their 30" shunt teleport.

If someone reminded me to Shunt my Stormboyz I would remind them that codex wargear and rules to do not cross into each other as per the GW errata/FAQ. Your entire point is false because Stormboyz don't have the option for personal teleporters nor do they have access to the special rules that are unique to another codex.