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What I want to see is a squad of Death Company models wearing Jump Packs get into a transport because they're still Infantry models.

Since there's no rule that states that Infantry models which "are Jump Infantry" stop being Infantry models, just like there's no rule stating that MC's that "are Jump Infantry" stop being MC's.

Or the Space Marine character with a Jump Pack that gets sniped with JotWW because he's still effected for the same reason.

The joys of arguing over the meaning of is.

The defined unit types in Warhammer 40k are listed on page 4 and 5 of the BRB. There is no combined unit types on that page. There is no MC/JI on that page.

RAW the GK cdex tells you flat out that a unit with personal teleporter is JI. Raw this is supported in the BRB by the defined unit types in Warhammer 40k.

Dreadknight with personal teleporter is JI, as stated in the GK codex and supported by page 4 and 5 of the BRB. Deal with it until a FAQ is released.

Dreadknight with personal teleporter is JI, as stated in the GK codex and supported by page 4 and 5 of the BRB. Deal with it until a FAQ is released.

Whilst you are right on RaW why the last comment? You know what the actual rule is (the RaI) so why intentionally play it different to the rules? Surely that is the definition of cheating?

mpangelu wrote:I'll tell you where it goes, if you can tell me how you fit 10 space marines into a Rhino..

For the 29379827th time, there have been people who have modeled this. 10 Space Marines fit into a Rhino. They are sitting down, without their bases, obviously, as the tank was meant to transport, not provide 1st class comfort. Same with Ork Trukks and Battlewagons. People have modeled them to prove, without question, that they are scaled appropriately.

It's those Imperial Guard who enjoy a ton of room in their vehicles...

Brother Ramses wrote:The defined unit types in Warhammer 40k are listed on page 4 and 5 of the BRB. There is no combined unit types on that page. There is no MC/JI on that page.

RAW the GK cdex tells you flat out that a unit with personal teleporter is JI. Raw this is supported in the BRB by the defined unit types in Warhammer 40k.

Dreadknight with personal teleporter is JI, as stated in the GK codex and supported by page 4 and 5 of the BRB. Deal with it until a FAQ is released.

Actually RAW only units with teleporterS are JI, and as the dread knight may by RAW not take more than one, he stays a MC.

Deal with it until a FAQ is released.

Jidmah wrote:

Brother Ramses wrote:The defined unit types in Warhammer 40k are listed on page 4 and 5 of the BRB. There is no combined unit types on that page. There is no MC/JI on that page.

RAW the GK cdex tells you flat out that a unit with personal teleporter is JI. Raw this is supported in the BRB by the defined unit types in Warhammer 40k.

Dreadknight with personal teleporter is JI, as stated in the GK codex and supported by page 4 and 5 of the BRB. Deal with it until a FAQ is released.

Actually RAW only units with teleporterS are JI, and as the dread knight may by RAW not take more than one, he stays a MC.

Deal with it until a FAQ is released.

You do realize the reason it says UNITS with TELEPORTERS and not a unit with a teleporter is to refer to the fact an army may have more than ONE unit in it that is capable of taking teleporters and becoming jump infantry.

Instead of having to say "A unit with a teleporter or a multiple model unit with teleporters counts as Jump Infantry. They can just say Units with Teleporters are jump infantry. I can take a squad of 5 interceptors and 2 dreadknights...and when describing my army I would say I have three UNITS with TELEPORTERS.

Well, they could have worded it that way, but they didn't. This is the core of many, many rules arguments. A correct and clean wording would have been "any infantry model with a personal teleporter is jump infantry instead".

So any unit with less than 2 teleporters is not jump infantry.

Your army contains three units with a teleporter or at least one teleporter, but only one unit with teleporters.

If a Stormraven does not transport MC then it cannot transport a Dreadknight as it will still be a monstrous creature that moves like jump infantry. Look at Daemon Princes: Monstrous Creature. Give them wings: Move as Jump Infantry and may deep strike. Look at Tyranids: Winged Tyrant. Honestly, why put it in a stormraven when you pay 75 points for a 30" jump?

Defeatmyarmy wrote:If a Stormraven does not transport MC then it cannot transport a Dreadknight as it will still be a monstrous creature that moves like jump infantry. Look at Daemon Princes: Monstrous Creature. Give them wings: Move as Jump Infantry and may deep strike. Look at Tyranids: Winged Tyrant. Honestly, why put it in a stormraven when you pay 75 points for a 30" jump?

Because you can move it 24", drop it precisely, and it can still assault? All why not being shot at. Then after first turn you can shunt it to other side?

Logically I agree, it is a MC with jump infantry movement. HOWEVER, the RAW say it BECOMES jump infantry, not "MOVES AS" like with the nids and chaos examples people have been pointing out. The problem then becomes can you be classified as actually being two different unit types, and not simple one unit type with special rules similar to another.

I have seen people who argue for it actually being jump infantry solely and thus being able to fit in a storm raven since only one knight can be in a unit and only one unit can embark in the raven, thus there is plenty of room for it. So I guess if your willing to lose the MC benefits, you could do this RAW now.

It cannot assault if you dro it out the Flat Out! Stormraven

Jidmah wrote:

Brother Ramses wrote:The defined unit types in Warhammer 40k are listed on page 4 and 5 of the BRB. There is no combined unit types on that page. There is no MC/JI on that page.

RAW the GK cdex tells you flat out that a unit with personal teleporter is JI. Raw this is supported in the BRB by the defined unit types in Warhammer 40k.

Dreadknight with personal teleporter is JI, as stated in the GK codex and supported by page 4 and 5 of the BRB. Deal with it until a FAQ is released.

Actually RAW only units with teleporterS are JI, and as the dread knight may by RAW not take more than one, he stays a MC.

Deal with it until a FAQ is released.

By that standard the DK can get a personal teleporter and do absolutely nothing with it because he only has one teleporter, not teleporterS.

Even moreso, the entry says INTERCEPTORS ONLY, so go ahead and buy a non-working personal teleporter, because you need more then one and then not be able to use them even more because it is a Dreadknight, not Interceptors.

You're actually going to argue that?

Funny how people cherry-pick the JI part, but ignore all other restrictions obviously not meant for the dread knight.

Also see this: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/60/359505.page#2663212

Monsterous Jump-Infantry Creatures work perfektly fine unter 5th edition rules.

Monsterous Jump-Infantry Creatures work perfektly fine unter 5th edition rules.

How do they shoot? They are required to shoot as both MCs and normal infantry...

Ramses. Show me the rule that says a unit can only be one unit type. Seriously, page number, quote, etc.

We all know how this is supposed to work, it's a Monstrous Creature that is also Jump Infantry. It has to abide by the rules and restrictions of BOTH unit types (altho personlly, I'd let it shoot two weapons). This is, of course, IMO.

It has to abide by the rules and restrictions of BOTH unit types (altho personlly, I'd let it shoot two weapons).

So how many shots does it take when changeling makes it shoot its own men?

Show me a rule saying it can be 2 unit types? So me any other model that is 2 unit types?

don_mondo wrote:Ramses. Show me the rule that says a unit can only be one unit type. Seriously, page number, quote, etc.

We all know how this is supposed to work, it's a Monstrous Creature that is also Jump Infantry. It has to abide by the rules and restrictions of BOTH unit types (altho personlly, I'd let it shoot two weapons). This is, of course, IMO.

Don...the kiddies are saying that you have to "prove that it is both" because the rules are permissive. Not vice versa.

Dumb...I know. I feel that the codex itself gives the DreadKnight both Statuses...being that it starts out a MC and gains JI status for 75pts.

I stopped arguing...b/c the point is moot anyway. People who play DK's as JI only will be branded douchebags and we sensible folk will be vindicated once the FAQ comes out.

At my GW they said that if anyone tries to ride a Dreadknight in a Storm Raven, then they're kicking them out. I think that's a pretty firm RAI vote right there.

Dreadknight into a Stormraven, really? Do you people seriously exist in someones FLGS?I feel sorry for them, Glad I don't have clowns like you guys around me, but then again I just wouldn't play someone that trys to pull most of this crap waving the RAW flag.

we sensible folk will be vindicated once the FAQ comes out.

No way the FaQ will say it is both MC and JI. It will say it moves a JI but is an MC. Probably an errata to change the wording on the Teleporter or just an FaQ stating that for the Dreadknight the teleporter makes it move as JI.

The FAQ will indeed say it moves as Jump Infantry. The reason why is because it was designed to be the counter to demon princes which when they have wings move as Jump Infantry. However as it is written right now, they do not move as Jump Infantry, they are Jump Infantry.

Keep barking up the combined unit tree of JI/MC. Unit types are clearly defined. JI/MC is not on that list, therefore it does not exist.

I agree it will move like Jump Infantry but a really don't think they wanted it inside the Stormraven.

If they were to indeed just completely lose their fricking minds and make it JI, I actually don't see it being loaded into a Storm Raven a problem, both game wise and fluff wise.

Fluffswise, the terminator pilot does not live in the damn thing, he is mounted and controlling it. He could be disembarked from the dreadknight and the dreadknight looks like it could just be a collapsible exoskeleton. Once he is to be deployed, the terminator fires up the system and mounts up to deploy in it.

Gamewise? Feel free to wrap up that many points in a vehicles that can pretty easily be popped despite a flat out cover save.

My take on this? Simple, since it is Jump Infantry it can. On the wargear it says it works like the interceptor squad [the teleporter says it works like the interceptors] since it has a Jump Pack or whatever its called it makes it Jump Infantry -_-"

FlingitNow wrote:

Monsterous Jump-Infantry Creatures work perfektly fine unter 5th edition rules.

How do they shoot? They are required to shoot as both MCs and normal infantry...

Did you read the linked post? I explained it in depth there. Rules of the units type always take precedence over infantry rules as per BRB pg. 52, so they are able to shoot two weapons.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Brother Ramses wrote:The FAQ will indeed say it moves as Jump Infantry. The reason why is because it was designed to be the counter to demon princes which when they have wings move as Jump Infantry. However as it is written right now, they do not move as Jump Infantry, they are Jump Infantry.

Keep barking up the combined unit tree of JI/MC. Unit types are clearly defined. JI/MC is not on that list, therefore it does not exist.

Note that a Fast/Tank is not defined either. So no more fast tanks for blood angels?

Did you read the linked post? I explained it in depth there. Rules of the units type always take precedence over infantry rules as per BRB pg. 52, so they are able to shoot two weapons.

But it is not infantry rules that require it to fire as infantry but the JI rules that require it. Therefore the MC status has no ability to override it. This is your issue.

JI does not have it's own rules for shooting, but uses infantry rules(BRB pg. 52)

If you have permission to fire one weapon and permission to fire two weapons, you may do either. There is no rule preventing infantry(or any other model) from firing more than one weapon, if they are allowed to do so by, for example, being a MC (BRB pg. 15).

Have you read page 52? Clear as day JI "follow the same rules as infantry" for shooting, not the same rules as MCs...

It says rules for infantry are ignored if the type tells you to do something different, on the exact same page.

Also infantry rules for shooting do not tell you to shoot only one weapon.

Where does it say that?

Even if it did say that the type is what is telling you specifically to use the Infantry rules the MC rules can not override that.

As for infantry not being banned from shooting 2 guns I'll have to look into that later. Havcen't the time to check was convinced they were though.

I can't believe that this is a real argument.

Arguing that a Teleporting Dreadknight loses MC-status is pretty absurd already as the only thing that has changed for the Dreadknight is how it moves but I can still see how GW may have intended this for balance reasons. Though at 75 points, the Personal Teleporter would be even more overpriced if this is the case. Point is, it is a little ridiculous but sure, I understand the argument.

Now I understand the question of Personal Teleporter Dreadknights embarking in a Stormraven can be a parody of the Personal Teleporter/Lose MC-status argument to make a mockery of the original issue but actually taking such a notion seriously is beyond ridiculous; it is insanity.

How in the world can a Dreadknight begin to fit inside of a Stormraven? Obviously 10 Space Marines will struggle to fit inside a Rhino and 12 would struggle to fit inside a Stormraven but the scale is fairly believable. However, a Dreadknight has zero chance of fitting inside of a Stormraven. And even if you could somehow argue that one could fit if contorted into an awkward position, how will you rationalize that it only takes up two transport slots?

There comes a point where RAW should be ignored, even in the strictest of competitive and tournament settings; this is clearly one of those points and to avoid appearing like powergaming TFGs, I would recommend dropping this argument and moving on to one of the many more reasonable rules disputes generated by Codex: Grey Knights.