Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

I dont really like how gw killed off squats, i have nothing against the fluff where they have almost been driven to extinction by the tyranid invasion, but the thing they just leave it there and say now they are all dead, why not just have them as background thing in the imperium? no need to reintroduce the figurines, but let em stay in fluff=)
What i think is a possible way for them to survive and chance to help the Imperium fluff vise.

Since the loses of the squat homeworlds the few squats that are alive now, has decided to become a fully working part of the Mechanicus since they used alot of their resorces to save as many squats as they could and the STC equpiment the squats had. Whit the understanding that they are to few in number to fight for their revenge on the tyranids they have started to become one of the most effective RnD sections of the mechanicus aswell as they are wandering the imperium for mineral rich astroid belts and planets to mine in the Imperiums intrests. This lifestyle is set on mechanicus ship that have been slightly modified in the name of the Omnissiah to have a greater performance in deteckting minerals, also some of STC have been moved to safer locations but to honor the New way of Squats for they have totally embraced the way of the machine, the machanicus decide that they would continue whit the honor of protecting some the STCs their ancestors have protect since the ancient times.
This does offcourse not mean that they are defenceless but they are more dependent on skitarri troops and the help of the mechanicus to defend themself. The ships they are currently using are like 45% squats and the rest are humans they have befriended, I was thinking that they have a fleet around maybe 100 destroyers and some battleships and carriers in does and only 2 planets still.

They are called the FerrumosNanus

dont know if this makes sence or is a bad ide but i though it sounded a bit fun=) gonna see if my brain can invent some cool sounding chars to this.

Since Squats are no longer part of the official background I am moving your thread to 40K General Discussion.

*Resets counter*

Also, this is an issue older than I am. To be honest, it's been hashed over so many times that I don't think there's much to be said any more.
I would like to see some form of Squat, though, even if it's radically different from the ol' days, just cause.

I can't see that *all* squats were killed. Some worked alongside humanity in Adeptus Mechanicus. Maybe if the homeworld were under threat they were all recalled but I don't buy it. GW decided they didn't like them any more and swept them under the carpet with the silliest of reasons.

Lol.

I've been thinking about collecting a squat army for a while, feth GW and their anti-squat agenda. You can still get rogue trader era models off ebay and fantasy dwarfs will provide endless conversion opportunities.

This will happen after my chaos cultist project though, so will probably never happen :(

At one time, when the GW forums were still running, there was an actual rule which forbade you from talking about or mentioning the squats in your posts. Hilarious

There was this response to a fan, asking about where the Squats had gone for 3rd edition 40k. It got this, I will say condescending, reply in issue 240 of WD:

“Would you believe they were all eaten by the Tyranid invasion? Or, due to the Squats biker life style, everyone of the was arrested for disturbing the peace and sacrificed to the Emperor. Where do you think they get all of those souls anyway? All kidding aside, it doesn't seem likely the Squats will ever again see the light of day. When they were out they never seemed very popular, showed up at our stores, or tournaments, and didn't sell on top of all that [Note that this claim is directly contradicted by Jervis Johnson in 2002]. Their look was really outdated compared to the hundreds of other great Warhammer 40,000 models. Don't send us hate mail, it's just the cold hard facts of the 41st Millennium.”

(thanks to http://chaossquats.blogspot.com/ for digging up that old letter)

And then of course there was the letter from JJ, which was somewhat more diplomatic and seemed to put the lid on the matter (leaving the door open though, he said that the concept might be revisited if the design team felt they could do it justice.

Which, looking at some rumours springing out of the woodwork, looks like it might happen now as the 'Demiurg' (not SQUATS you understand? ) look like they may be making a comeback.

Pacific wrote:At one time, when the GW forums were still running, there was an actual rule which forbade you from talking about or mentioning the squats in your posts. Hilarious

Because it was constantly done as a trolling attempt.

People even did this in the midst of Games Day Q&A sessions with designers. And of course, it was inevitably the twit hovering in the back with a greasy face, greasy ponytail, and 38DDs poking out of his well-worn witty D&Dism t-shirt who was asking it.

My first Games Day(Baltimore 2001) was spoiled by that very same kind of twit hogging the mic and verbally harassing Andy Chambers for the entirety of the 40k Q&A session when Chambers kept shushing him and Security was nowhere to be found.

There was this response to a fan, asking about where the Squats had gone for 3rd edition 40k. It got this, I will say condescending, reply in issue 240 of WD:

“Would you believe they were all eaten by the Tyranid invasion? Or, due to the Squats biker life style, everyone of the was arrested for disturbing the peace and sacrificed to the Emperor. Where do you think they get all of those souls anyway? All kidding aside, it doesn't seem likely the Squats will ever again see the light of day. When they were out they never seemed very popular, showed up at our stores, or tournaments, and didn't sell on top of all that [Note that this claim is directly contradicted by Jervis Johnson in 2002]. Their look was really outdated compared to the hundreds of other great Warhammer 40,000 models. Don't send us hate mail, it's just the cold hard facts of the 41st Millennium.”

(thanks to http://chaossquats.blogspot.com/ for digging up that old letter)

And then of course there was the letter from JJ, which was somewhat more diplomatic and seemed to put the lid on the matter (leaving the door open though, he said that the concept might be revisited if the design team felt they could do it justice.

And it was in the midst of being revisited at that point. Before the release of Codex: Tau(not Tau Empire, just Tau)--there was design sketches and full-on concept work being done for the Demiurg to introduce them. They were narrowly beaten out, supposedly because of the obnoxious nature of people at events constantly pestering and hogging the GW design staff's time with questions about "Why did you can the squats?!".

Which, looking at some rumours springing out of the woodwork, looks like it might happen now as the 'Demiurg' (not SQUATS you understand? ) look like they may be making a comeback.

Demiurg have already been introduced, for a long time now, courtesy of the Tau in BFG. Not sure why you think this is a case of "they may be making a comeback". They've already made a comeback.

I got into the game late I always thought ratlings were related to squats.

I think they are both squats and ratlings are humans who lived in certan conditions on a world, and have mutated to better handle it.

That's right. So are Ogryns.

Squats, Ratlings and Ogryns are all stable mutations (Also known as Abhumans) with a leagal status within the imperium. Beastmen had a semi leagal status. The Scalies of Necromunda are an example of a non-legal stable mutation.

Squats like the adeptus mechanicus were assosiated with the Imperium but not a part of the Imperium Proper, they had their own beliefs, command and political structure.

Kanluwen wrote:
Demiurg have already been introduced, for a long time now, courtesy of the Tau in BFG. Not sure why you think this is a case of "they may be making a comeback". They've already made a comeback.

You know full well I was talking about the recent rumours in the 40k thread, stop being purposefully obtuse

Totally agree about the nature of some of the fans (although not always, I had a squat army and I am closer to a C cup ), although I had heard that the reason they did not come back into production was because a 'prominent member of the design team' said they would only come back over his dead body. So, if the 40k rumours of Demiurg are true, either that member has left the company/been murdered, or the new direction must be far enough away from the original squat archetype not to arouse the same passions as the previous dwarves in space.

Pacific wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:
Demiurg have already been introduced, for a long time now, courtesy of the Tau in BFG. Not sure why you think this is a case of "they may be making a comeback". They've already made a comeback.

You know full well I was talking about the recent rumours in the 40k thread, stop being purposefully obtuse

Then stop being acute with your accusations!

Totally agree about the nature of some of the fans (although not always, I had a squat army and I am closer to a C cup ), although I had heard that the reason they did not come back into production was because a 'prominent member of the design team' said they would only come back over his dead body. So, if the 40k rumours of Demiurg are true, either that member has left the company/been murdered, or the new direction must be far enough away from the original squat archetype not to arouse the same passions as the previous dwarves in space.

Which one did you hear had said that? Because the most vocal opponent I know of to them was Andy Chambers, and it was more because he didn't want to see 40k go back to "Fantasy In Space" with all the traditional Fantasy archetypes present.

The Demiurg, from what we've seen of them however, are pretty dang far from the "original Squat archetype".

I don't understand this reasoning that GW didn't want to take up squats because they want to differenciate it from fantasy battle.

let's face it:

imperial guard = empire in space
space marines = bretonnian knights in space
eldar = elves in space
dark eldar = dark elves in space
orks = orcs in space
chaos = chaos in space (in some cases having exactly the same models)
necrons = undead in space

There are few armies that only exist in their own game, like tau, tyranids, lizardmen (although slann were originally a 40K army), and skaven. But they are the exception rather than the rule. Clearly this argument doesn't hold up.

What makes 40K appealing is that they subvert sci-fi archetypes by melding an incredibly advanced future with anachronistic elements of the past. Fighting with swords in space isn't going to happen but being able to play it is fun. So 40K is, and always has been, "science fantasy in space".

seejay wrote:I don't understand this reasoning that GW didn't want to take up squats because they want to differenciate it from fantasy battle.

let's face it:

imperial guard = empire in space

Wrong. The Imperial Guard are, if you need something to peg them as, are "World War I in Space". Flesh for the grinder, in trade for the safety of another day for Back Home.

space marines = bretonnian knights in space

Again, wrong. At best, yes: Space Marines are "knights in space". But there's far more going on there, in the form of the various Chapters. You've got a lot of the major literature archetypes represented(the "Repentant Knight" in the form of the Dark Angels, the "Warrior Poet" in the form of the Blood Angels, the "Noble Savage" in the form of the Space Wolves, the "Crusading Faithful" in the form of the Black Templars, etc), several of which have nothing to do with stuck-up jerks inheriting their titles.

eldar = elves in space
dark eldar = dark elves in space

Simplistic answer: wrong. They share the attributes of Elves, but are not. Elves don't gradually turn to crystal as they age. Nor do Eldar have secret cults penetrating the strata of their society riddled with Slaanesh worshiping goons(at least according to everyone but that twit, C.S. Goto), and for that matter nor do the Craftworld Eldar have a single "King" or homeland. Dark Eldar, also, did not "form from a schism" within the two Eldar races and migrate to their new homeland because of it. They sealed themselves within the Webway hoping to escape Slaanesh.

orks = orcs in space

Again: share attributes, but are not. Orks mature incredibly fast, shedding spores as they die to ensure the continuation of their line. They also have a genetic predisposition towards a specific role(such as Mekboyz, Shoota Boyz, Lootas, Storm Boyz, etc). Orcs do not have anything resembling those.

chaos = chaos in space (in some cases having exactly the same models)

Chaos Space Marines "have none of the same models". The only reason Daemons are the same is because the book was made to be that way. There's also the argument that, no matter what, Daemons are a manifestation of a form decided upon by humanity.

necrons = undead in space

So freaking wrong it's not even funny. They're not "undead in space". They're golems, if you want the simple answer. Complex answer: They're artificial constructs with the essence of a living being trapped within. "Undead" are the reanimated remains of a dead being. There's nothing "remaining" of the Necrontyr in their form, outside of their essence. If you want to make the argument that they're "ghosts in space", however, you wouldn't be entirely wrong.

There are few armies that only exist in their own game, like tau, tyranids, lizardmen (although slann were originally a 40K army), and skaven. But they are the exception rather than the rule. Clearly this argument doesn't hold up.

Slann were never an "army". They existed within 40k when 40k was essentially a tabletop RPG. And even then, the Slann we saw introduced there share nothing with the Slann we see now.

What makes 40K appealing is that they subvert sci-fi archetypes by melding an incredibly advanced future with anachronistic elements of the past. Fighting with swords in space isn't going to happen but being able to play it is fun. So 40K is, and always has been, "science fantasy in space".

It hasn't been "fantasy in space" in anything but the most dullard eyes since 2nd edition.

Squats are in the new Tau Codex.

*Runs laughing from the thread with his monocle and fluffy white cat in hand*

Kanluwen wrote:

seejay wrote:I don't understand this reasoning that GW didn't want to take up squats because they want to differenciate it from fantasy battle.

let's face it:

imperial guard = empire in space

Wrong. The Imperial Guard are, if you need something to peg them as, are "World War I in Space". Flesh for the grinder, in trade for the safety of another day for Back Home.

space marines = bretonnian knights in space

Again, wrong. At best, yes: Space Marines are "knights in space". But there's far more going on there, in the form of the various Chapters. You've got a lot of the major literature archetypes represented(the "Repentant Knight" in the form of the Dark Angels, the "Warrior Poet" in the form of the Blood Angels, the "Noble Savage" in the form of the Space Wolves, the "Crusading Faithful" in the form of the Black Templars, etc), several of which have nothing to do with stuck-up jerks inheriting their titles.

eldar = elves in space
dark eldar = dark elves in space

Simplistic answer: wrong. They share the attributes of Elves, but are not. Elves don't gradually turn to crystal as they age. Nor do Eldar have secret cults penetrating the strata of their society riddled with Slaanesh worshiping goons(at least according to everyone but that twit, C.S. Goto), and for that matter nor do the Craftworld Eldar have a single "King" or homeland. Dark Eldar, also, did not "form from a schism" within the two Eldar races and migrate to their new homeland because of it. They sealed themselves within the Webway hoping to escape Slaanesh.

orks = orcs in space

Again: share attributes, but are not. Orks mature incredibly fast, shedding spores as they die to ensure the continuation of their line. They also have a genetic predisposition towards a specific role(such as Mekboyz, Shoota Boyz, Lootas, Storm Boyz, etc). Orcs do not have anything resembling those.

chaos = chaos in space (in some cases having exactly the same models)

Chaos Space Marines "have none of the same models". The only reason Daemons are the same is because the book was made to be that way. There's also the argument that, no matter what, Daemons are a manifestation of a form decided upon by humanity.

necrons = undead in space

So freaking wrong it's not even funny. They're not "undead in space". They're golems, if you want the simple answer. Complex answer: They're artificial constructs with the essence of a living being trapped within. "Undead" are the reanimated remains of a dead being. There's nothing "remaining" of the Necrontyr in their form, outside of their essence. If you want to make the argument that they're "ghosts in space", however, you wouldn't be entirely wrong.

There are few armies that only exist in their own game, like tau, tyranids, lizardmen (although slann were originally a 40K army), and skaven. But they are the exception rather than the rule. Clearly this argument doesn't hold up.

Slann were never an "army". They existed within 40k when 40k was essentially a tabletop RPG. And even then, the Slann we saw introduced there share nothing with the Slann we see now.

What makes 40K appealing is that they subvert sci-fi archetypes by melding an incredibly advanced future with anachronistic elements of the past. Fighting with swords in space isn't going to happen but being able to play it is fun. So 40K is, and always has been, "science fantasy in space".

It hasn't been "fantasy in space" in anything but the most dullard eyes since 2nd edition.

Haha. I'm not going to get into an uber-nerdy argument with you about fluff. Think of it how you want, yes there are differences between the 40k armies and their fantasy equivalents, but the spirit of the races denotes a fantasy archetype. You can bicker about minor points if you want but I stand by everything I said.

None of what I said was meant to be detrimental to 40K either, the reason GW is so popular is because they have the best fluff and the coolest models, I'm not insulting the armies, merely pointing out the hypocrasy of the attitude.

Haha. I'm not going to get into an uber-nerdy argument with you about fluff.

Then why did you bother posting a whine about the fluff in the first place?

Think of it how you want, yes there are differences between the 40k armies and their fantasy equivalents, the spirit of the races denotes a fantasy archetype.

What "spirit of the races"? There's nothing about the Chaos Space Marines that ties them in to the Warriors or Beasts of Chaos. There's nothing about the Eldar or Dark Eldar that ties them in any real way to their Fantasy cousins. There's nothing within the Empire that ties them in to the Imperial Guard either, outside of "some of them have guns" and "they're all human!". The only one that even remotely comes close is Space Marines(which was intentional, since they're supposed to be the 'shining knights of the Imperium') and Orks (because having cultures based upon war makes them irredeemably similar, despite the differences of course) .

You can bicker about minor points if you want but I stand by everything I said.

Apparently not, since you just seemingly wanted to make a flawed point.

None of what I said was meant to be detrimental to 40K either, the reason GW is so popular is because they have the best fluff and the coolest models, I'm not insulting the armies, merely pointing out the hypocrasy of the attitude.

It's hypocrisy to say that I'm 'bickering about minor points' when those minor points were purposefully erased from 40k and Fantasy to differentiate the worlds from each other.

Kanluwen wrote:

seejay wrote:I don't understand this reasoning that GW didn't want to take up squats because they want to differenciate it from fantasy battle.

let's face it:

imperial guard = empire in space

Wrong. The Imperial Guard are, if you need something to peg them as, are "World War I in Space". Flesh for the grinder, in trade for the safety of another day for Back Home.

space marines = bretonnian knights in space

Again, wrong. At best, yes: Space Marines are "knights in space". But there's far more going on there, in the form of the various Chapters. You've got a lot of the major literature archetypes represented(the "Repentant Knight" in the form of the Dark Angels, the "Warrior Poet" in the form of the Blood Angels, the "Noble Savage" in the form of the Space Wolves, the "Crusading Faithful" in the form of the Black Templars, etc), several of which have nothing to do with stuck-up jerks inheriting their titles.

eldar = elves in space
dark eldar = dark elves in space

Simplistic answer: wrong. They share the attributes of Elves, but are not. Elves don't gradually turn to crystal as they age. Nor do Eldar have secret cults penetrating the strata of their society riddled with Slaanesh worshiping goons(at least according to everyone but that twit, C.S. Goto), and for that matter nor do the Craftworld Eldar have a single "King" or homeland. Dark Eldar, also, did not "form from a schism" within the two Eldar races and migrate to their new homeland because of it. They sealed themselves within the Webway hoping to escape Slaanesh.

orks = orcs in space

Again: share attributes, but are not. Orks mature incredibly fast, shedding spores as they die to ensure the continuation of their line. They also have a genetic predisposition towards a specific role(such as Mekboyz, Shoota Boyz, Lootas, Storm Boyz, etc). Orcs do not have anything resembling those.

chaos = chaos in space (in some cases having exactly the same models)

Chaos Space Marines "have none of the same models". The only reason Daemons are the same is because the book was made to be that way. There's also the argument that, no matter what, Daemons are a manifestation of a form decided upon by humanity.

necrons = undead in space

So freaking wrong it's not even funny. They're not "undead in space". They're golems, if you want the simple answer. Complex answer: They're artificial constructs with the essence of a living being trapped within. "Undead" are the reanimated remains of a dead being. There's nothing "remaining" of the Necrontyr in their form, outside of their essence. If you want to make the argument that they're "ghosts in space", however, you wouldn't be entirely wrong.

There are few armies that only exist in their own game, like tau, tyranids, lizardmen (although slann were originally a 40K army), and skaven. But they are the exception rather than the rule. Clearly this argument doesn't hold up.

Slann were never an "army". They existed within 40k when 40k was essentially a tabletop RPG. And even then, the Slann we saw introduced there share nothing with the Slann we see now.

What makes 40K appealing is that they subvert sci-fi archetypes by melding an incredibly advanced future with anachronistic elements of the past. Fighting with swords in space isn't going to happen but being able to play it is fun. So 40K is, and always has been, "science fantasy in space".

It hasn't been "fantasy in space" in anything but the most dullard eyes since 2nd edition.

Well, this DULLARD's eyes have seen 2nd edition and before that and agree with the guy you evidently think is WRONG WRONG AND SO WRONG ITS JUST WRONG.

Okay we get it, there are some inconsistancies in the specifics. No Elves do not turn into Crystal, and Dark Elves didn't hide in a webway to launch raids, instead they hid on an island to launch raids, and so on. But I think the post you are so meticulously trying to point out as wrong, wrong and MORE WRONG with all the nitpicky details is quite true on the surface. Hmm.. Elves and Eldar are quick, few-in-number, violently defensive, proud of their culture, artistic, and innately magical/psykic. Orks and orcs are violenly aggressive, tough, dumb, and come a lookin for a fight in huge numbers. Necrons and Undead are uncaring and bent on purging life - and necrons even look like skulls too!. I wouldn't have agreed on the brettonian thing, but not for the cultural bias reasons that you don't, just because brettonian knights are just well equipped human knights under a different flag, they aren't 'superhuman' like astartes.

Whatever the specifics, which are all fluffy attempts to bridge the gap between fantasy-land and 'looks-like-sci-fi' space, the obvious correlations are there and we don't need to run through the books like a history lesson looking for all the specifics of why they aren't at all the same, just to show off our apparent acedemic muscle and throw the word 'dullard' around to insult someone for pointing out something that is largely considered to be the case by MANY 40k players. It is Fantasy in Space. If I don't believe so, and try to think of it as true "science" fiction in the tradition of Asimov, Niven, etc, then all of the blessings of the omnissiah won't be able to fix my broken down car when I need them to - because its just science fiction. Science fiction could happen without trashing the rules of what is scientifically accepted. Fantasy involves supernatural and necessarily inexplicable forces (magic, the warp, the force, etc). No reason to insult the guy. But then again, maybe you think 40k is a realistic strategy game too and like to try and compare weapon ranges to modern army equivalents too, who knows?

It was obvious right from the start that 40K was Warhammer Fantasy in space.

Chaos is the link between Chaos and Chaos, if you need one.

IMO they got rid of Squats because they thought they were a bit too silly. That was because they did the whole biker army thing. It was pretty silly, too.

Kanluwen wrote:

Haha. I'm not going to get into an uber-nerdy argument with you about fluff.

Then why did you bother posting a whine about the fluff in the first place?

Think of it how you want, yes there are differences between the 40k armies and their fantasy equivalents, the spirit of the races denotes a fantasy archetype.

What "spirit of the races"? There's nothing about the Chaos Space Marines that ties them in to the Warriors or Beasts of Chaos. There's nothing about the Eldar or Dark Eldar that ties them in any real way to their Fantasy cousins. There's nothing within the Empire that ties them in to the Imperial Guard either, outside of "some of them have guns" and "they're all human!". The only one that even remotely comes close is Space Marines(which was intentional, since they're supposed to be the 'shining knights of the Imperium') and Orks (because having cultures based upon war makes them irredeemably similar, despite the differences of course) .

You can bicker about minor points if you want but I stand by everything I said.

Apparently not, since you just seemingly wanted to make a flawed point.

None of what I said was meant to be detrimental to 40K either, the reason GW is so popular is because they have the best fluff and the coolest models, I'm not insulting the armies, merely pointing out the hypocrasy of the attitude.

It's hypocrisy to say that I'm 'bickering about minor points' when those minor points were purposefully erased from 40k and Fantasy to differentiate the worlds from each other.

I don't feed trolls, sorry. Making personal insults and pulling me up on my spelling makes your argument look weak, by the way.

Chowderhead wrote:Squats are in the new Tau Codex.

*Runs laughing from the thread with his monocle and fluffy white cat in hand*

You mean, it is rumoured that Demiurg will be in the Tau Codex.

Kilkrazy wrote:It was obvious right from the start that 40K was Warhammer Fantasy in space.

Chaos is the link between Chaos and Chaos, if you need one.

IMO they got rid of Squats because they thought they were a bit too silly. That was because they did the whole biker army thing. It was pretty silly, too.

You're probably right, 40K has always been over-the-top but rogue traders had a certain comedy to it they've dropped (probably a good thing). It was slightly more risqué too - goblins giving the middle finger and whatnot.

The fact that they moved an inch slower than everyone else was major weakness for them too, especially for race that supposedly loved a good close-up scrap, getting them across the board and into and-to-hand combat must've been a right pain.

Is there a good site on squats? i've never looked into who they were and now that i've seen another thread about the short little bikers I want to have a look! will Wiki be enough? or do these guys need something special?

Kanluwen isn't a troll. He just disagrees with you.

Guitardian wrote:
Well, this DULLARD's eyes have seen 2nd edition and before that and agree with the guy you evidently think is WRONG WRONG AND SO WRONG ITS JUST WRONG.

Good for you?

Okay we get it, there are some inconsistancies in the specifics. No Elves do not turn into Crystal, and Dark Elves didn't hide in a webway to launch raids, instead they hid on an island to launch raids, and so on.

You realize that Naggaroth is its own continent, right? That links to Lustria? For all intents and purposes: Naggaroth is the "North America" in the comparison to Lustria's "South America".

Ulthuan, however, is an island. So you're saying the High Elves hid on an island to launch raids? Interesting. That would push them even further away from the Eldar, wouldn't it?

But I think the post you are so meticulously trying to point out as wrong, wrong and MORE WRONG with all the nitpicky details is quite true on the surface.

I'm shocked. Really. See? This is my shocked face.

Hmm.. Elves and Eldar are quick, few-in-number, violently defensive, proud of their culture, artistic, and innately magical/psykic.

Elves aren't "few in number" by any stretch. The population of Ulthuan is constantly growing, because they have relatively constant birth rates. The only thing preventing them from fielding huge masses of forces ala the Empire are that it still takes a bit longer for Elves to feel someone has matured to the point that they can be on a battlefield. The Elves also quite often leave Ulthuan to aid the human populations in wars against Chaos and other foes, they don't pull an Eldar and play puppetmaster organizing their foes to fight humanity.

Orks and orcs are violenly aggressive, tough, dumb, and come a lookin for a fight in huge numbers.

And? So are Ogryn--but they're significantly different from their Fantasy counterparts that only someone really grasping at straws would call them the same thing.

Necrons and Undead are uncaring and bent on purging life - and necrons even look like skulls too!.

Chaplains have faces that look like skulls. Are they undead? Undead aren't "bent on purging life", by the by. The Vampires want to create an "eternal kingdom" while Khemri just wants to be left alone.

I wouldn't have agreed on the brettonian thing, but not for the cultural bias reasons that you don't, just because brettonian knights are just well equipped human knights under a different flag, they aren't 'superhuman' like astartes.

I figured the "superhuman" thing was a dead give-away. Plus I was actually referring to the thematic elements that are inherent within Space Marines. I'm not arguing that they weren't based upon knights, but they were based more upon the ideal of knights from Arthurian and High Romance legend. The idea of knights being the "just and wise protectors of the lesser man", not the idea of "rich guys who inherit their title and do nothing to earn it".

I'm sure you can at least agree with that, now can't you?

Whatever the specifics, which are all fluffy attempts to bridge the gap between fantasy-land and 'looks-like-sci-fi' space, the obvious correlations are there and we don't need to run through the books like a history lesson looking for all the specifics of why they aren't at all the same, just to show off our apparent acedemic muscle and throw the word 'dullard' around to insult someone for pointing out something that is largely considered to be the case by MANY 40k players.

It hasn't been "considered to be the case by many 40k players" for a long time.

It is Fantasy in Space.

It was Fantasy in Space. They've evolved it since then, and if you don't believe that then I don't know what to tell you.

If I don't believe so, and try to think of it as true "science" fiction in the tradition of Asimov, Niven, etc, then all of the blessings of the omnissiah won't be able to fix my broken down car when I need them to - because its just science fiction. Science fiction could happen without trashing the rules of what is scientifically accepted.

You're right in that it's not necessarily "true science fiction". It has more in common with pulp styled fiction than it does science fiction.

Fantasy involves supernatural and necessarily inexplicable forces (magic, the warp, the force, etc).

Not necessarily. You're correct in that fantasy usually does involve the supernatural or inexplicable forces--except not always.

No reason to insult the guy. But then again, maybe you think 40k is a realistic strategy game too and like to try and compare weapon ranges to modern army equivalents too, who knows?

Or maybe I just have actually read the background and noticed how it's actually evolved rather than constantly moaned about how my "favorite army" was removed for being far too bloody silly for the direction they were taking the game.

Either answer could work there. However I will say this: of course 40k isn't a "realistic" strategy game. There's nothing real to compare it to--you cannot actually have realism without something to base it upon.

Kilkrazy wrote:It was obvious right from the start that 40K was Warhammer Fantasy in space.

Right from the start, yes. But again: they've evolved 40k from simply being "Fantasy in Space".

Does it retain some of the elements? Sure.

Chaos is the link between Chaos and Chaos, if you need one.

"Chaos" isn't a good enough link. The motivations for the two wasn't necessarily similar enough for me to count it in my statement.

Warriors of Chaos and the Marauders have aligned themselves with Chaos not because they're necessarily seeking power, but because it's the region they've lived within. You don't necessarily see members of the Empire based Chaos Cults fleeing to the North to join the Marauders or Warriors of Chaos.

Chaos Space Marines, however, seek nothing but power and wanton destruction.

IMO they got rid of Squats because they thought they were a bit too silly. That was because they did the whole biker army thing. It was pretty silly, too.

Well not just the "whole biker thing". The crazed drunk thing probably didn't help.

They were silly as all hell though.

All of the things I thought gave squats a uniqueness: Big complex vehicles, slow axe-wielding troops, and LOADS of heavy weapons. Besides that, they had essentially the same profile as an IG with worse Move (no longer exists) and better toughness. Their army list included many squads that were the equivalent of marine devastators with half the squad having single model heavy bolters or lascannons on their shoulders.

Being slow and vaguely cc oriented turned this into a defensive (very dwarfy) way of playing - hammering away with big guns but able to take the charge when it came. They were not ever an offensively assault-style army, but they could take it like a shield wall defensively.

Their sharing technology with the Imperium, as well as the abhuman gene basis explains the close relationship and alliance with Imperial causes too. They fit in fine I thought. Back in those days, te 'filthy xenos' didn't apply so much to them, they were more commonly an ally, moreso than Eldar who used to be frequent allies too, unlike orks or nids who were always filthy xenos. They were considered more like Ratlings and Ogryns as far as the Imperium was concerned, but as there were many worlds populated by them, they became kind of an Imperial vassal instead of an enemy xenos.

The only thing I thought got silly was the shades-wearing-beer-guzzling-biker thing. If they had just toned that part down a bit (maybe handed off the biker vibe to SW instead of TWC) they would not have been a silly army at all. I never understood why they were funneled out because if space vikings, space elf clowns, the existance of ork madboyz (also removed for silliness reasons I imagine) never had their faction entirely disappear on silliness grounds. That can't be the only reason.

Maybe it was just a seriously unpopular line of models. There never really were a lot of squat models in the first place besides the obligatory 30 box of plastics that almost all rogue trader factions had. Maybe 2 or 3 extra characters and a handful of vehicles or interesting equipment like bikers and big artillery pieces. Probably 3-4 pages of a catalog total.

Kilkrazy wrote:Kanluwen isn't a troll. He just disagrees with you.

well he's making his point in a trolly way.

seejay wrote:

Kilkrazy wrote:Kanluwen isn't a troll. He just disagrees with you.

well he's making his point in a trolly way.

"Troll" is used far far too much as a synonym for "this person disagrees with me and makes his point in a less than 100% pandering way".

A "troll" post would be equivalent to Chowderhead's post. It says nothing that isn't intended to evoke a hateful reaction.