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seejay wrote:

Kilkrazy wrote:Kanluwen isn't a troll. He just disagrees with you.

well he's making his point in a trolly way.

+1 on this one, there are ways of saying things without grabbing someone by the ears and screaming in their face (which sadly is how it comes across). You've been like a hurricane passing through the boards this evening mate, have a sit down and have a cup of tea or something

Pacific wrote:

seejay wrote:

Kilkrazy wrote:Kanluwen isn't a troll. He just disagrees with you.

well he's making his point in a trolly way.

+1 on this one, there are ways of saying things without grabbing someone by the ears and screaming in their face (which sadly is how it comes across). You've been like a hurricane passing through the boards this evening mate, have a sit down and have a cup of tea or something

Sadly, it's the only way of saying some things and getting them across.

If this were a face to face conversation, things would have been done entirely different.

Kilkrazy wrote:Since Squats are no longer part of the official background I am moving your thread to 40K General Discussion.

since when did they get removed from the background?

cgage00 wrote:

Kilkrazy wrote:Since Squats are no longer part of the official background I am moving your thread to 40K General Discussion.

since when did they get removed from the background?

...Seriously?

Since 2nd edition.

Kanluwen wrote:

cgage00 wrote:

Kilkrazy wrote:Since Squats are no longer part of the official background I am moving your thread to 40K General Discussion.

since when did they get removed from the background?

...Seriously?

Since 2nd edition.

yes seriously I know they have been killed. I know the models have been canned. But they are STILL a part of the 40K world. Not talked about much but still a part just like the Zoats.

Removal from the game:
The Squats have been out of the current games and model production by Games Workshop since the 1990s. The release of the third edition of Warhammer 40,000 in 1998 marked the removal of the final elements of the Squat rules from the game. The last miniatures to be released by Citadel were the Epic Squat war engines (such as the Goliath Mega Cannon) in 1994, though the release of Warhammer 40,000 scale had stopped some four years previously in 1990. Though no new models were released, sales did continue at a low level through retail stores and through Mail Order for several years until they were eventually discontinued completely.

In terms of the game background, the Squat Home Worlds were attacked by the Tyranids of a hive fleet. However, the few Squats not on the Home Worlds stayed isolated, typically as either pirates or members of the Imperium's armies. As no actual Squat-specific background material was published after 1993 this pivotal moment in the race's history has only ever been briefly mentioned or referenced, and so not much is known. One can assume however, that as they did not "fit" well as a race into the Imperium, they have been all but removed by a convenient Tyranid Hive fleet, in rather the same way that the Zoats were disposed of.

History of the Squat Home Worlds:
The Squat Home Worlds were colonized during the Age of Founding (known to the Imperium as the Dark Age of Technology). The planets were rich in minerals and ores human civilization desperately needed, and so millions of ships full of miners and explorers were sent out. The worlds were high gravity with brutal environments. The settlers dug deep into the bedrock of the planets to survive, and so the first strongholds[1] were born.

The Age of Trade, which lasted for almost three millennia, saw a decrease in the warp storms isolating the Home Worlds. The Squats traded with the Orks and Eldar during this period. The Age of Trade was ended in an enormous attack on the Home Worlds by the Ork Warlord Grunhag the Flayer. The Squats pleaded for assistance from their Eldar trading partners, but were rebuffed. This led to the Squats' enmity against Orks and Eldar that has lasted through the Age of Wars into the current Age of Rediscovery (or Age of the Imperium). The Forces of the Great Crusade launched wars against the Squats in the belief that they were aliens, but eventually the Squats were accepted, along with other abhumans, as being human in nature. The millions of Squat Strongholds spread scross their homeworlds joined the Imperium, but continued to retain their autonomy as an independent but allied empire to the Imperium.

The Home Worlds maintained trade and mutual assistance with the Imperium, trading military hardware, allowing Commissar military advisors to join their armies, and sending recruits to the Adeptus Mechanicus. In the forty-first millennium, Tyranid Hive Fleet Behemoth (Citadel Journal 33; "Hundreds of years ago") threatened to sweep through the Home Worlds, capable of destroying the Squats as a power in the galaxy. The council of Ancients decided to unite with humanity to provide a unified front against the Tyranids, and the hundreds of thousands of Squat Homeworlds were integrated by the Imperium (almost tripling its official size) as DaoT protectorates over several centuries before facing off the Tyranids during the attack by Behemoth.

Although the vast majority of the Squat race joined the Imperium, a few Squats remained separated from the council and carried on independently. Some became pirates or mercenaries, others joined the Imperium and the Imperial cult after acknowledging the Emperor as their God, while many fought for the Imperium in exchange for the promise of being granted new Homeworlds and building up the Squat race. These Squat outcasts were gradually named the Demiurg, the Squat word for defiant, as they turned their backs on their ancestoral strongholds to seek freedom from the Imperium.

The Squats carried grudges for millennia, and none so strongly as against the race of Orks, who betrayed the Squats on more than one occasion and inflicted many losses upon them in war.

if you are going to say they REMOVED then make sure they removed. Removed is like what they did with the 13th Black crusade and the ending of Armageddon. Get your facts straight BEFORE opening the pie hole.

cgage00 wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:

cgage00 wrote:

Kilkrazy wrote:Since Squats are no longer part of the official background I am moving your thread to 40K General Discussion.

since when did they get removed from the background?

...Seriously?

Since 2nd edition.

yes seriously I know they have been killed. I know the models have been canned. But they are STILL a part of the 40K world. Not talked about much but still a part just like the Zoats.

Actually no, they're gone. They do not exist anymore, they are finished, they are not considered canon, whatever you want to call it. There's only one book which acknowledges Squats as existing anymore, and even that isn't considered canon. It's "considered a snapshot of Warhammer 40,000 in its formative years".
Long story short: They're gone, too bad not so very sad.

if you are going to say they REMOVED then make sure they removed.

I don't know where you got that ridiculous quote, but it sure isn't canon. They've been removed, entirely, from the background. There's no mention of them in anything that Black Library OR Games Workshop considers to be canon.

Removed is like what they did with the 13th Black crusade and the ending of Armageddon.

What the heck are you talking about? That's not 'removed'.

Get your facts straight BEFORE opening the pie hole.

I'd suggest you actually read some fluff from the past decade before you come in shouting that they're still in here. Squats are gone, gone, gone--and they're never coming back in the form of Squats.
The absolute closest thing is the Demiurg, which guess what?

The Demiurg are not Squats. They are an actual, alien species-- not a genetic aberration of humanity.
So please. Keep running your mouth.

Kanluwen wrote:

cgage00 wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:

cgage00 wrote:

Kilkrazy wrote:Since Squats are no longer part of the official background I am moving your thread to 40K General Discussion.

since when did they get removed from the background?

...Seriously?

Since 2nd edition.

yes seriously I know they have been killed. I know the models have been canned. But they are STILL a part of the 40K world. Not talked about much but still a part just like the Zoats.

Actually no, they're gone. They do not exist anymore, they are finished, they are not considered canon, whatever you want to call it. There's only one book which acknowledges Squats as existing anymore, and even that isn't considered canon. It's "considered a snapshot of Warhammer 40,000 in its formative years".
Long story short: They're gone, too bad not so very sad.

if you are going to say they REMOVED then make sure they removed.

I don't know where you got that ridiculous quote, but it sure isn't canon. They've been removed, entirely, from the background. There's no mention of them in anything that Black Library OR Games Workshop considers to be canon.

Removed is like what they did with the 13th Black crusade and the ending of Armageddon.

What the heck are you talking about? That's not 'removed'.

Get your facts straight BEFORE opening the pie hole.

I'd suggest you actually read some fluff from the past decade before you come in shouting that they're still in here. Squats are gone, gone, gone--and they're never coming back in the form of Squats.
The absolute closest thing is the Demiurg, which guess what?

The Demiurg are not Squats. They are an actual, alien species-- not a genetic aberration of humanity.
So please. Keep running your mouth.

First your a buffoon. I never said they are coming back. I know they are gone gone gone. They are dead dead dead. The campaigns have all been retconed. If you read current lore they talk as if they never happened. As a player that took a major part in both I remember that Chaos won yet now they didn't? Sounds like a retcon.

Tell me where they removed them from the background. Because they don't write about them? You do understand the difference between a retcon(removal from lore) and killed off and not talked about anymore. Cause you have the two confused at this time. Show me the offical word where GW said Squats never existed.

cgage00 wrote:
First your a buffoon. I never said they are coming back. I know they are gone gone gone. They are dead dead dead. The campaigns have all been retconed. If you read current lore they talk as if they never happened. As a player that took a major part in both I remember that Chaos won yet now they didn't? Sounds like a retcon.

Probably because they're--at least in the case of the 13th Black Crusade under the current lore, still actually going on. We're at a fixed timeframe within the 40k universe.

By the by, Chaos really didn't "win". The objective was to seize Cadia and the spacelanes around it. They seized Cadia, but not the space around it--which was the entire point of the Black Crusade, to fully clear the Cadian Gate of Imperial forces so that the Traitor Legions could begin pushing further and further out within the Imperium.

The Armageddon campaign hasn't been changed.

Tell me where they removed them from the background. Because they don't write about them? You do understand the difference between a retcon(removal from lore) and killed off and not talked about anymore. Cause you have the two confused at this time. Show me the offical word where GW said Squats never existed.

Games Workshop hasn't actually said that "Squats never existed". They have, however, said that Squats no longer exist. I'd suggest you "get your facts straight if you're going to open your piehole".

Black Library wrote:Believe us when we tell you that Space Marine is quite unlike any other Warhammer 40,000 novel you’ve ever read.

First published in 1993 – though completed some years earlier – at a time when the background to the Warhammer 40,000 universe was still in a state of flux and not yet fully coalesced, the book follows three young Imperial Fist recruits from their formative years in the underhive gangs of Necromunda through to fighting as part of the First Company within the bowels (literally!) of a Tyranid bioship.

Not only will you find squats in this novel –Tzeentch-worshiping squats at that – but also Space Marines controlling Titans, Space Marines with lasguns, the Pain Glove and more than a small amount of toilet humour. Oh, and a Zoat. How could we forget the Zoat?

Although the temptation was great to rewrite significant portions of this book to make it conform to current background, as a curiosity piece, an historical snapshot of the Warhammer 40,000 universe circa the early 1990s, this book is invaluable. It also serves as a shining example of what can happen when a respected genre author at the height of his powers is let loose on an established shared universe.

Link here

I believe an "Oh snap" meme would be appropriate here, but I'm far too respectful to do that.

So instead, you get this:

when i think on a squat now as my own fantasy came up whit i see that most squats are now in a red robe and have alot of mechanical bodyparts since they joined the mechanicus. The main reson i can see that the Squats joined the mechanicus is,
>They had access to STC tech, something the mechanicus would Never let the Tyranids get their hands on.
>The squats where tinkers something the mechanicus likes.
> The Squats where always a bit "cold" to the mechanicus couse they though they where to "magic mombo jumbo", a great chance for the mechanicus to drag them under their "wing" and be abel to use their STC knowlagde and the tinker skills to better suit the mechanicus.

cgage00 wrote:

Kilkrazy wrote:Since Squats are no longer part of the official background I am moving your thread to 40K General Discussion.

since when did they get removed from the background?

The late 90s when they were eaten by Tyranids. Since then you could discuss Squats on the official forum.

Didn't they also publish new editions of some novels with all references to Squats edited out? That's pretty convincing evidence that GW's intent is to erase them from history.

Kanluwen wrote:

seejay wrote:I don't understand this reasoning that GW didn't want to take up squats because they want to differenciate it from fantasy battle.

let's face it:

imperial guard = empire in space

Wrong. The Imperial Guard are, if you need something to peg them as, are "World War I in Space". Flesh for the grinder, in trade for the safety of another day for Back Home.

space marines = bretonnian knights in space

Again, wrong. At best, yes: Space Marines are "knights in space". But there's far more going on there, in the form of the various Chapters. You've got a lot of the major literature archetypes represented(the "Repentant Knight" in the form of the Dark Angels, the "Warrior Poet" in the form of the Blood Angels, the "Noble Savage" in the form of the Space Wolves, the "Crusading Faithful" in the form of the Black Templars, etc), several of which have nothing to do with stuck-up jerks inheriting their titles.

eldar = elves in space
dark eldar = dark elves in space

Simplistic answer: wrong. They share the attributes of Elves, but are not. Elves don't gradually turn to crystal as they age. Nor do Eldar have secret cults penetrating the strata of their society riddled with Slaanesh worshiping goons(at least according to everyone but that twit, C.S. Goto), and for that matter nor do the Craftworld Eldar have a single "King" or homeland. Dark Eldar, also, did not "form from a schism" within the two Eldar races and migrate to their new homeland because of it. They sealed themselves within the Webway hoping to escape Slaanesh.

orks = orcs in space

Again: share attributes, but are not. Orks mature incredibly fast, shedding spores as they die to ensure the continuation of their line. They also have a genetic predisposition towards a specific role(such as Mekboyz, Shoota Boyz, Lootas, Storm Boyz, etc). Orcs do not have anything resembling those.

chaos = chaos in space (in some cases having exactly the same models)

Chaos Space Marines "have none of the same models". The only reason Daemons are the same is because the book was made to be that way. There's also the argument that, no matter what, Daemons are a manifestation of a form decided upon by humanity.

necrons = undead in space

So freaking wrong it's not even funny. They're not "undead in space". They're golems, if you want the simple answer. Complex answer: They're artificial constructs with the essence of a living being trapped within. "Undead" are the reanimated remains of a dead being. There's nothing "remaining" of the Necrontyr in their form, outside of their essence. If you want to make the argument that they're "ghosts in space", however, you wouldn't be entirely wrong.

There are few armies that only exist in their own game, like tau, tyranids, lizardmen (although slann were originally a 40K army), and skaven. But they are the exception rather than the rule. Clearly this argument doesn't hold up.

Slann were never an "army". They existed within 40k when 40k was essentially a tabletop RPG. And even then, the Slann we saw introduced there share nothing with the Slann we see now.

What makes 40K appealing is that they subvert sci-fi archetypes by melding an incredibly advanced future with anachronistic elements of the past. Fighting with swords in space isn't going to happen but being able to play it is fun. So 40K is, and always has been, "science fantasy in space".

It hasn't been "fantasy in space" in anything but the most dullard eyes since 2nd edition.

You do realise by this agument Squats are no more Dwarfs in Space than Eldar are Elves in space or Orks are Orcs in space.

Dwarf = Ancient race created by the old ones who taught men the arts of forging meatals into tools or armour. Dwarfs use no magic other than that which is bound into the items they forge. Dwarfs are universally slow not even taking cavalry.

Squats = Humans who lived on High gravity / High Radiation/storm worlds who grew shorter due to them living in tunnels to keep away from the radiation/storms on the surface. Squats could make use of Psykers. Squats though individually slow could field bikers.

The only things that made them simular was that they are both tunnel dewlling miners, who liked beer and ale.

In the same way Eldar and Elves are both waning races with high proportions of Psykers/magic users. Magic and psychic abilities are essentially and spritually the same thing.

In this respect the Demiurg are just as much Space Dwarfs as Squats are. Ok they don't live in tunnels, granted. They live in Brotherhoods on their space ships, but it is supposed that they have given certan technology the the younger races (the Tau). But it is still early days yet for the Demiurg some of this may be changed in a Codex if it is ever released.

All i'm saying is if they got rid of Squats to keep away from Fantasy in Space they needn't have bothered by your analogy.

This is not an attack, just an observation.

Squats were killed off a long time ago and for good reason. The GW team themselves have openly admitted it was a terrible idea, and never should have happened. They should be left to rest in the GW morgue, never to be spoken of again.

I don't really understand why they were considered a 'terrible' idea. The cigar-chewing biker with the bald head, zz top beard, and shades was silly - but so are clowns - many orky inventions - chubbly little ratlings - Sly Marbo - Mad Donna Ulanti - Cruella(gh) De ville - lots of GW imagery has been kind of tongue in cheek and has goofy cultural references.

What I do see as a terrible idea were the stumpy-legged steel-bearded-egg-looking exosuits (squat terminators look like metal easter eggs).

What do you mean squats don't exist?

I never cared for squats. I get it dwarfs is space... But if you take a step back they made very little sense fluff wise. The are a highly nomadic race witch seems like a good way to die given that travel is insanely complex at best and lethal at worst. The imperium has a very thinly disguised policy about hating abhumans to actively consort with any race that has a tech base outside of the machine cult is absurd. They have no problem wasting resources on flights of fancy yet managed to survive cut off from terra is kinda silly. The idea of them have the most STC is also rather confusing given the are decedents of miners and pilots. and as for the whole free access to the STC library well mechanus isnt known for being polite when asking just look at the soulspear....

Thats all I got

Cheesecat wrote:What do you mean squats don't exist?

Wouldn't that count as demiurg

http://www.google.com.au/url?sa=t&source=web&cd=2&ved=0CB0QFjAB&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwh40k.lexicanum.com%2Fwiki%2FDemiurg&rct=j&q=demiurg&ei=BDqRTY6LNYXQcZeeuUA&usg=AFQjCNGXPBxZ5ZN7hE8t5fwRBzXlAnC0bw&sig2=yhudp18UOAaY4pKuFAmV5Q&cad=rja

I really dislike the 'the Squats had silly looking models and weren't competitive, so 40K's better off without their being revamped' line. That's an argument not to release the new Dark Eldar line because the 12 year old early 3E models are unpopular. That's an argument to indefinitely put Tomb Kings in development hell because they're unplayble and the Screaming Skull Catapult is a pig to glue together. That's an argument to discontinue Tyranids because the first Biovore had ridiculous legs.

Hyperbole aside, it really does seem ridiculous to judge a line's potential on the basis of the few models it had made for RT/2E. This was back when EVERY faction had a couple of infantry units (largely made up of three metal poses) and maybe a lead vehicle or two - consisting of little more than two axles, four generic wheels and a roof - that would slowly collapse under its own weight.

It's been remarked that Squats were a slow footslogger army which made their supposed aggressive temperament translate poorly into a 'castle' strategy. Well, back then, Eldar were the OMG FAST army by virtue of the fact that hardly anybody had an APC kit and they had the fortune to have nimble infantry and a plastic jetbike. Look at the modern Eldar tankyard, full of nice plastic kits and a whole bunch of Forgeworld stuff. Look at the standardised Deep Strike rules, that give every race a selection of paratroops, drop pods, tunnellers, teleporters, etc. Look at the selection of burrowing machines and aircraft Epic Squats had. They already had the potential to present a number of interesting play styles, even before a developer suddenly presents a Landmate that's suspiciously absent from any previous fluff.

It's been remarked that the 'beer & shades' bikers looked goofy. Well duh, the Techmarine of their time carried nothing more than a blowtorch and a pistol. If that could evolve into Doctor Octopus, sure it wouldn't take much to redo that old cheesy stereotype into something that looks more grimdark. Certainly, they don't look that much more out of place than, say, a Squig with a gobful of dynamite. Or Space Pope. Or TWC.

A well thought out post, agree completely with what you are saying.

I think a lot (perhaps the majority) of the people who write about Squats and how they were a joke race weren't around at the time they were released. If you compare the models alongside the other races of that time the models fit the design aesthetic of that time perfectly, it's ridiculous to compare them against modern sculpts and the modern conception of the universe (which changed massively between 1st and 2nd editions).

I think we should be excited at the prospect of what today's miniature sculptors will be able to conceptualise, rather than go on and on with the popularist opinion of 20 year old models that have absolutely no chance whatsoever of resurfacing in their old form.

Pacific wrote:A well thought out post, agree completely with what you are saying.

I think a lot (perhaps the majority) of the people who write about Squats and how they were a joke race weren't around at the time they were released. If you compare the models alongside the other races of that time the models fit the design aesthetic of that time perfectly, it's ridiculous to compare them against modern sculpts and the modern conception of the universe (which changed massively between 1st and 2nd editions).

And the same can be said of a lot (perhaps the majority even) of the people who whine that Squats were "unjustly removed". Most of the people I run into at events who complain that GW "screwed over Squats" are younger than I am at 23.

I think we should be excited at the prospect of what today's miniature sculptors will be able to conceptualise, rather than go on and on with the popularist opinion of 20 year old models that have absolutely no chance whatsoever of resurfacing in their old form.

Agreed.
Hooray for the Demiurg.

Let the Squats rest in well-deserved, drunken rest.

It's great that the spirit of the race will live on in some form, even if it's "just" as allies to the tau. I look forward to seeing them.

I personally liked the look of the squats, yeah they were quirky and oddball, nothing wrong with that, I don't see why orks are allowed to be the comedy relief of the game yet squats were criticised for it. They had all kinds of funky machinery that looked fun to play with. That said, I don't sit around crying about it, and if I ever met Andy Chambers I wouldn't be like "WHY U NO LIKE SQUATS :(" in his face.

(I just googled Andy Chambers and wiki says he's now creative director of Blizzard... Blimey!)

seejay wrote:It's great that the spirit of the race will live on in some form, even if it's "just" as allies to the tau. I look forward to seeing them.

I personally liked the look of the squats, yeah they were quirky and oddball, nothing wrong with that, I don't see why orks are allowed to be the comedy relief of the game yet squats were criticised for it. They had all kinds of funky machinery that looked fun to play with. That said, I don't sit around crying about it, and if I ever met Andy Chambers I wouldn't be like "WHY U NO LIKE SQUATS :(" in his face.

Because while Orks have comedic elements...they're still pretty grimdark.
Unless slavery and mass genocide are 'comedy relief'...

(I just googled Andy Chambers and wiki says he's now creative director of Blizzard... Blimey!)

Yep. That was after a massive flop on the part of the Starship Troopers miniature game(which he supposedly dropped out of because of "too much creative control" on his work) and him attempting to start up his own game studio.

He was a nice guy, loved background material and all--but he couldn't write rules or balance a game, nor seemingly work well with others to save his life.

I seem to recall the Squats had awesome antigrav technology. That and burrowing Moles could make for a cool army. You know how Stormtroopers and Blood Angels can leap out of a Valk/Stormraven at high speed? Grav-beams enable the stumpy Squat assault troops to be lifted up into a Gyrothingy zooming overhead without need for it to set down. They can even be carried and dropped on the same turn, riding the grav-beam to behave like Jump Infantry - albeit not without risk. Meanwhile, the awesome Land Train - which can be expanded with modular carriages - lumbers forward, and the Moles keep popping up and under the ground. (Like a Mawloc, but good.)

Kanluwen, anything to say about Obsidian's post?

I asked a GW store manager about squats. He simply said some guy who was part of the company left, and he possessed all right to squats. I would imagine GW had to get them out of the fluff because of legal ramifications. However, after reading bits and pieces of this thread, it sounds like the GW manager was...wrong? I'm not sure what to believe.

AdeptusAssfartes wrote:Kanluwen, anything to say about Obsidian's post?

Hadn't noticed it actually. It was posted on the day I was purposely ignoring this thread so I could get some work done.

Obsidian wrote:You do realise by this argument Squats are no more Dwarfs in Space than Eldar are Elves in space or Orks are Orcs in space.

Dwarf = Ancient race created by the old ones who taught men the arts of forging metals into tools or armour. Dwarfs use no magic other than that which is bound into the items they forge. Dwarfs are universally slow not even taking cavalry.

While the Dwarfs don't necessarily 'use magic', what do you think Runes are? They are, by their very nature, 'bound magic'.
Or are you really going to say that "A fancy letter carved into it can make a sword never miss, a shield able to stop a rampaging Orc in its tracks, force a cannonball to burst into flames", etc.
Fine craftsmanship only goes so far, there is magic inherent within the items they use. Which means...Dwarfs use magic.

Squats = Humans who lived on High gravity / High Radiation/storm worlds who grew shorter due to them living in tunnels to keep away from the radiation/storms on the surface. Squats could make use of Psykers. Squats though individually slow could field bikers.

Yeah. That's why Squats were generally accepted by the Imperium. Because while they weren't out and out an alien species, they still retained some measure of humanity and thus were 'acceptable'. It's also why they had things like Psykers, which manifest within the human physiology.
I mean hell, by that logic it's entirely plausible that we could see Ogryn or Ratling psykers.

There were also "Half-Eldar" at the time, something which was very archetypal of the common high fantasy settings. Now, however, we've had that completely abolished and there's no feasible way for an Eldar or Human to breed, just like a dog can't get pregnant from a cat.

The only things that made them similar was that they are both tunnel dwelling miners, who liked beer and ale.

Well that and things like...
-Ancestor worship.
-The high ideal of craftsmen within the society, and their role(at the time) in working alongside the Adeptus Mechanicus(seems pretty reminiscent of the Dwarfs 'teaching humans' the secrets of metal working, doesn't it? I should also, however, add that isn't necessarily true of the Warhammer Fantasy setting. The Dwarfs don't share every secret they have with humanity, or the humans would be crafting Runefangs, Gromril Full Plate Armour, etc--rather than having it gifted to them from the Dwarfs through pacts and alliances).
-The clan based hierarchy.
-The bull-headed stubborn attitudes of both races.
-The creativeness of the craftsmen within the society.

That's all I've got off the top of my head, I'm sure there's more others could add in though.

In the same way Eldar and Elves are both waning races with high proportions of Psykers/magic users. Magic and psychic abilities are essentially and spiritually the same thing.

The Elves in Warhammer are far from a 'waning race'. They're only considered that when compared directly to the races within the setting. The Elven Empire within Ulthuan is very much a power player within the Fantasy universe--they just lack force projection and generally take a more 'defensive' stance.

It's also worth noting that while all Elves have some innate connection to magic, the same isn't true of the Eldar and psykers.

In this respect the Demiurg are just as much Space Dwarfs as Squats are. Ok they don't live in tunnels, granted. They live in Brotherhoods on their space ships, but it is supposed that they have given certan technology the the younger races (the Tau). But it is still early days yet for the Demiurg some of this may be changed in a Codex if it is ever released.

Thing is that as it stands, we've only really ever seen the "trader" aspect of the Demiurg. We've seen nothing about them having "great warriors" like the Dwarfs or Squats did. Hell, we've got more instances of them fleeing battles than we do of them fighting.
Most of what we've seen, also, points towards them being a more 'fleet' force than ground warriors.
Dwarfs aren't renowned for cavalry nor are they renowned for being great sailors or fighter pilots, are they?

All I'm saying is if they got rid of Squats to keep away from Fantasy in Space they needn't have bothered by your analogy.

So far, I've seen nothing with the Demiurg that immediately makes me go to "FANTASY DWARFS IN SPACE!" like Squats did. Like you said though, if they're in the Tau Codex we may have a different instance.

This is not an attack, just an observation.

With some good points in it, actually.

I think that you may be devolving too far into semantics. I dont think that the differentials you are pointing out are quite as important to the main facet of the "space fantasy" argument as it would be to a direct "Warhammer Fantasy in space" point of view.

Elves, orcs, dwarfs and the dark "chaos" type evil found in most fantasy settings vary largely from author to author/setting. However, there are a few threads that are almost always consistent. Elves are usually graceful, pointy eared and mysterious and often have a 'dark elf' counterpart. Orcs are violent, stooped, petty etc. Of course, the fluff has evolved to become slightly more original and separate from the old tropes, but on the surface any new comer to the setting can easily draw from the similarities.

Necrons are skeletal, silent, marching dead looking things. Eldar are lithe, graceful and countered by an evil looking sub-species. Orks are just abrasively recognizable from popular fantasy settings (LOTR, Warcraft*), I mean, it's not as if they even tried to rename the race something more sci-fi-ish.

So, while I agree that 40k can no longer be so easily grafted onto a WHFB template, it is in practicality a fantasy setting thrust into space and then sculpted to be a little more separate. I think you are trying to find direct, exact counterparts when you perhaps should step back and see the wider face of the setting.

*We both know the discrepancy on this one, but to the average person orcs are from LOTR, DnD or Warcraft

Ehh. To me, it's all about the semantics.
But I do agree with what you're saying for the most part, AA(I'm not typing that ridiculous pun ).

To someone taking the 'broad view' that you're advocating, 40k is "Space Fantasy".

I personally try to look at the particulars, because in the end: that's what has helped me sell the setting to friends. People aren't going to get interested in playing Eldar necessarily because "they're Elves in space!"--but they might be immediately intrigued by the idea that they're highly advanced race with some of the most talented psykers within the background setting.

True say. I totally get what you mean.

I actually really enjoy this topic as some of the weirder Heavy Metal style space fantasy that 40k used to encompass more openly is what attracted me to GW back in the day and looking at how that has changed and effects modern 40k is pretty interesting to me. Too bad more people don't have more to say or we couldve started a thread on it specifically.

Its good to get a structured argument for once on the subject . Rather than just a yes it is no it isn't conversation.

Obsidian wrote:
You do realise by this argument Squats are no more Dwarfs in Space than Eldar are Elves in space or Orks are Orcs in space.

Dwarf = Ancient race created by the old ones who taught men the arts of forging metals into tools or armour. Dwarfs use no magic other than that which is bound into the items they forge. Dwarfs are universally slow not even taking cavalry.

Kanluwen wote:
While the Dwarfs don't necessarily 'use magic', what do you think Runes are? They are, by their very nature, 'bound magic'.
Or are you really going to say that "A fancy letter carved into it can make a sword never miss, a shield able to stop a rampaging Orc in its tracks, force a cannonball to burst into flames", etc.
Fine craftsmanship only goes so far, there is magic inherent within the items they use. Which means...Dwarfs use magic.

I did mention that the only magic that they use 'is bound into the items they forge'. What I ment was they can't channel magic through them selves, e.g they can't summon a fire ball or a lighting bolt from thier hands, however the knowlage for forging items and runes is boyond compaire even to the Elves. I suppose Dwarfs could be concidered Leximancers or Febermancers .

Obsidian wrote:
The only things that made them similar was that they are both tunnel dwelling miners, who liked beer and ale.

Kanluwen wote:
Well that and things like...
-Ancestor worship.
-The high ideal of craftsmen within the society, and their role(at the time) in working alongside the Adeptus Mechanicus(seems pretty reminiscent of the Dwarfs 'teaching humans' the secrets of metal working, doesn't it? I should also, however, add that isn't necessarily true of the Warhammer Fantasy setting. The Dwarfs don't share every secret they have with humanity, or the humans would be crafting Runefangs, Gromril Full Plate Armour, etc--rather than having it gifted to them from the Dwarfs through pacts and alliances).
-The clan based hierarchy.
-The bull-headed stubborn attitudes of both races.
-The creativeness of the craftsmen within the society.

That's all I've got off the top of my head, I'm sure there's more others could add in though.

Good point well made however seeing how the dwarves seem to be evolving they seem to be starting to get some of the Squat weapons (albeit a stam punk version) like the airship.

Kanluwen wote:
The Elves in Warhammer are far from a 'waning race'. They're only considered that when compared directly to the races within the setting. The Elven Empire within Ulthuan is very much a power player within the Fantasy universe--they just lack force projection and generally take a more 'defensive' stance.

It's also worth noting that while all Elves have some innate connection to magic, the same isn't true of the Eldar and psykers.

Unless the fluff has changed dramaticaly I was under the impression that Craftworld Eldar wore Waystones because they were more psychically aware after death than humans and knew the horrors that would be visited on them by Slaanesh so that they could not be reincarnated. Also I though any Eldar could take the path of the Warlock? But I could be mistaken .

Kanluwen wote:
Dwarfs aren't renowned for cavalry nor are they renowned for being great sailors or fighter pilots, are they?

I do dissagree with you on 2 points here. The majority of dwarfs to dislike water, hower the Dwarves of Barrak-Varr were considered queer by Dwarf standards having a huge navy of steam ships (so technically not sailors I suppose ) and not minding water that much.

As for fighter pilots I thing the Dwarves that pilot the Girocopters would dissagee with you ?

Looking at the heritage. 40K was definitely Warhammer in space (at least in regards of the Xenos races, I find the comparisons of the Empire and the Imperium ropey at best just be cause they both are ruled by Emperors, you might as well compaire the Roman and Chinese Empires). I mean when Ork were released thay were called Space Orcs, Eldar had a box set titled Space Elves and Squats were known as Space Dwarfs. They are now starting to move away from this state of affares (and have been for a while). All I am saying in Summary is if you were to take somone who only has knowlage of a generic fantasy setting and you showed them pictures or models of Eldar or Orks they would still draw a comparason with Elves and Orcs until they read the fluff.