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Obsidian wrote:Good point well made however seeing how the dwarves seem to be evolving they seem to be starting to get some of the Squat weapons (albeit a stam punk version) like the airship.

Which, let's face it, is perfectly acceptable for the Warhammer Fantasy setting

Obsidian wrote:
Unless the fluff has changed dramaticaly I was under the impression that Craftworld Eldar wore Waystones because they were more psychically aware after death than humans and knew the horrors that would be visited on them by Slaanesh so that they could not be reincarnated. Also I though any Eldar could take the path of the Warlock? But I could be mistaken .

I don't remember 100% on "any Eldar could take the path of the Warlock", but I do remember that the race as a whole is 'more psychically aware', but not every one of them manifests actual psyker gifts.
So like, Dave might be psychically sensitive and he gets glimpses of the future, etc--but he can't control them or predict them at whim.

I do disagree with you on 2 points here. The majority of dwarfs to dislike water, hower the Dwarves of Barrak-Varr were considered queer by Dwarf standards having a huge navy of steam ships (so technically not sailors I suppose ) and not minding water that much.

Exceptions to the rule don't make the rule

As for fighter pilots I thing the Dwarves that pilot the Gyrocopters would disagee with you?

I wouldn't really call the Gyrocopters 'fighter pilots'

Looking at the heritage. 40K was definitely Warhammer in space (at least in regards of the Xenos races, I find the comparisons of the Empire and the Imperium ropey at best just be cause they both are ruled by Emperors, you might as well compaire the Roman and Chinese Empires). I mean when Ork were released thay were called Space Orcs, Eldar had a box set titled Space Elves and Squats were known as Space Dwarfs. They are now starting to move away from this state of affares (and have been for a while). All I am saying in Summary is if you were to take somone who only has knowledge of a generic fantasy setting and you showed them pictures or models of Eldar or Orks they would still draw a comparison with Elves and Orcs until they read the fluff.

Which was pretty much my point, Obsidian. Once you actually read the background in existence today--you realize pretty early on that while it maintains some high fantasy ideas, 40k is very much its own setting.

weeeel outside of this pointless flame war on whether or not 40k is the sci-fi version of fantasy, I'd have to agree with OP. it'd be nice to see Squats in some small way, sort of the same way the Jokaero is a unique little quirky part of Inquisitor retinues. Just a tip of the hat if you will.

Kanluwen wrote:Once you actually read the background in existence today--you realize pretty early on that while it maintains some high fantasy ideas, 40k is very much its own setting.

But, I never said it wasn't. (admitedly my "eldar = elves in space [etc.]" post could have been construed in that manner, but it wasn't my intention) 40K is clearly its own distinct game in its own distinct setting. The designers have worked hard at seperating the game from warhammer fantasy battle by introducing totally unique races, different sets of rules, distinct playing style, themes, etc etc. It has its own identity - I certainly never tried to say that it didn't. But surely you must see that the reason they have to introduce distinctions between the two games is that its all too easy to draw parallels between them.

When I say eldar = space elves I don't mean that as a criticism, merely a recognition of the fact that they took inspiration for the eldar race from the elves of both their own fantasy setting, and the commonly accepted trope that was popularised by a certain magical-ring based fantasy trilogy. Clearly they've done new things with it and taken it to new levels and given the eldar their own identity. They are more than just "space elves", yes. But it's obviously recognisable by any fan of the genre where they got that original inspiration from and it's not somehow sacrilege to draw the comparison.

In a previous post you made you seem to think that I am "whining about the fluff" but not once did I say anything like that. I love 40K more than any game I've played and the reason for that is because they've worked so hard at the game's background, it's a beautiful operatic space fantasy that works so well because they combine and subvert genres, and the eldar are a prime example of that. In my books it's better than fantasy battle because it's the best of both worlds. I like my fantasy settings and I like my science fiction settings, so what could be better than combining laser guns, tanks, and sword-wielding, magically-adept warriors in a glorious calvacade of fictional violence?

So yes, eldar are space elves, and yes, they are more than that too. That is why I don't understand the line of reasoning that GW said 40K squats were too similar to warhammer dwarves and therefore they won't reintroduce them. If they can make eldar distinct from elves (which they have done) then they can do the same to squats.

As I've said, I like the fact that there is a nod towards them by the introduction of this new race allied to the tau. I personally would prefer to see them as their own collectable army but I'm not going to cry about it, if GW did everything I wanted then we'd all be playing 2nd edition still (and they'd send me a bucket full of free minatures every month )

Kanluwen wrote:

Obsidian wrote:Good point well made however seeing how the dwarves seem to be evolving they seem to be starting to get some of the Squat weapons (albeit a stam punk version) like the airship.

Which, let's face it, is perfectly acceptable for the Warhammer Fantasy setting

Obsidian wrote:
Unless the fluff has changed dramaticaly I was under the impression that Craftworld Eldar wore Waystones because they were more psychically aware after death than humans and knew the horrors that would be visited on them by Slaanesh so that they could not be reincarnated. Also I though any Eldar could take the path of the Warlock? But I could be mistaken .

I don't remember 100% on "any Eldar could take the path of the Warlock", but I do remember that the race as a whole is 'more psychically aware', but not every one of them manifests actual psyker gifts.
So like, Dave might be psychically sensitive and he gets glimpses of the future, etc--but he can't control them or predict them at whim.

I do disagree with you on 2 points here. The majority of dwarfs to dislike water, hower the Dwarves of Barrak-Varr were considered queer by Dwarf standards having a huge navy of steam ships (so technically not sailors I suppose ) and not minding water that much.

Exceptions to the rule don't make the rule

As for fighter pilots I thing the Dwarves that pilot the Gyrocopters would disagee with you?

I wouldn't really call the Gyrocopters 'fighter pilots'

Looking at the heritage. 40K was definitely Warhammer in space (at least in regards of the Xenos races, I find the comparisons of the Empire and the Imperium ropey at best just be cause they both are ruled by Emperors, you might as well compaire the Roman and Chinese Empires). I mean when Ork were released thay were called Space Orcs, Eldar had a box set titled Space Elves and Squats were known as Space Dwarfs. They are now starting to move away from this state of affares (and have been for a while). All I am saying in Summary is if you were to take somone who only has knowledge of a generic fantasy setting and you showed them pictures or models of Eldar or Orks they would still draw a comparison with Elves and Orcs until they read the fluff.

Which was pretty much my point, Obsidian. Once you actually read the background in existence today--you realize pretty early on that while it maintains some high fantasy ideas, 40k is very much its own setting.

Touché , I've kind of been out of the fluff since 2nd edition.

I am kind of looking forward to see if the Demiurge will be released, being that I started to hobby collecting Dwarves for Warhammer Fantasy i've been waiting to collect some stunties for 40K for a while! I already have a Tau Army so it'll be good if they release them for the Tau but I would be more happy for a dedicated Codex.