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Ccs is firing plasma at a Carnifex a vet squad behind firing plasma top theyre firing at the Carnifex too and are about half inch behind the ccs. According to true Los the vet squad would have to fire over the ccs. My opponent said the Carnifex will get a cover save as firing over my own unit giving 50% cover. I disagree as the guardsmen don't give 50% cover to the Carnifex.

Whose right?

It is hard for guardsmen to give 50% cover to a carnifex, but by no means impossible.

Firing through a unit does not inherently count as 50% though.

Even with the squads being that close together I don't believe the carnifex would get a cover save. Monstrous Creatures and Vehicles pay no attention to shooting through another squad unless the squad being fired through actually covers/blocks 50% of the model in question.

the squad in front has to physically, truly, actually block 50% of the target Monstrous Creature. Simply firing "through" the unit in front is not enough by itself.

Partial agreement to all the above.

You need to get down and look at the models; if you can see more then 50% of the Vehicle/MC through the Models in front of your firing unit then they get no Cover.

Well I told my opponent what the lords of dakka said and he still doesn't buy it and reckons I've explained it wrong . I know I'm right at the end of the day as the Carnifex didn't have no where near 50% cover.

I'll explain it again and my opponents reasoning.

CCS and plasma Vet squad 12" away from a two beast Carnifex unit. Vet squad is behind CCS half inch away from them. CCS kills one Carnifex puts two wounds on the other, Vets fire kills the other.

My opponent claims cover because of true LOS the Vets are that close to the CCS they cannot see through (checked and they can) and he said they would be firing over the CCS which give 50% cover. I said they fire through their own unit, not over as not in a elevated position and the Carnifex isn't 50% cover.

Your opinions changed or still the same? Opponent reckons the Vets should be firing over the CCS as they're too close to fire through but I said he's going too involved with things and it's only a game, the units fire in a straight line not up or down unless in a higher position.

Thanks.

Still no cover unless 50% of the model is actually obscured when you look. Also, if you fire 'over' the unit that would mean you do not get a cover save at all (even with infantry), like when a unit is on the second level of a building firing over their buddies on the first level.

No the Carnifex was no 50% covered. Only 4 Guardsmen in front and they don't cover a Carnifex 50% 12" away lol. And yes you're right about firing over a unit. I think he was just trying it on tbh as we had a debate for 20 minutes over it.

Your opponent is wrong, you are right.

Covering 50% of a fex is fairly hard, especially with 4 guardsmen....

That's what I told him but he wouldn't have it.

If he really wants to believe he gets cover, I guess there is no way you can stop him. You can lead a horse to water, but sometimes it drowns.

BRB pg 51 says 50% of the models body(as defined on pg 16) has to be out of view for a MC to ever claim cover. Standing between two models is not out of view. Also it tells you it otherwise works exactly like vehicles, as described on pg 62. That page and the MC rules tell us that all infantry rules for claiming cover do not apply. "Firing through units or area terrain" IS an infantry rule.

i thought your own troops dont confer cover for enemy units? unless i read that wrong in the rules or i read the op wrong and were not talking about the same thing.

Models in the unit that is firing can't give cover saves, but models in a separate unit you are firing through can, friend or foe.

kenzosan wrote:i thought your own troops dont confer cover for enemy units? unless i read that wrong in the rules or i read the op wrong and were not talking about the same thing.

The rules state that the models in the FIRING unit dont confer cover to the enemy; every other unit on the table, friend or foe, can grant cover just fine

Mercer: Relevant pages in the BRB:
Page 21 Intervening models
Page 51 MC, Shooting

As far as your assertion that 4 guardsmen 12" away from the carnifex cannot block 50% LOS. This is simply not true. 1 guardsman in base to base with a Firing model(from a different unit) Will block about 90% of the fex at that range(assuming that the Firing and intervening models are the same height). If the Firing model was a heavy Weapons team and only had 1 kneeling guardsman model on the base(or both models were kneeling) 4 Standing Guardsmen would block at least 50% LOS to about 5" out(depending on orientation).

The Veteran unit wasn't in base to base of the CCS, they was about half inch away and could see between the gaps of the CCS in front. Didn't block LOS at all. Could see the Fex perfectly without any problems.

nosferatu1001 wrote:

kenzosan wrote:i thought your own troops dont confer cover for enemy units? unless i read that wrong in the rules or i read the op wrong and were not talking about the same thing.

The rules state that the models in the FIRING unit dont confer cover to the enemy; every other unit on the table, friend or foe, can grant cover just fine

i see i see, i miss read it, thank you for that

in that case, i agree with everyone here, seriously, a carnifax 50% covered by infantry? my friend tried to pull this with a baneblade too so i know how it feels, luckily we were at the la battle bunker.

I think I misread what you were saying; I thought that you were Asserting that 4 guardsmen could not possibly block 50% LOS to a carnifex when the Fex is 12" away from the blocking Guardsmen.

Now I see(from your more recent post) that in this situation the guardsmen did not block 50%.

No, could not give 50% cover save the Fex. Doubtful can block 50% LOS either because you will shoot through the gaps in the unit.

I pulled out the models in question, got down and looked at it, I assure you the situation can occur(but does take some exact placement).

Also 50% LOS Block is 50% cover; MCs require 50% LOS blocking to be in cover(BRB Page 51)

What about page 22 paragraph 4?

Firing through units or area terrain: If a model fires through the gaps between some elements of area terrain or though the gaps in and between models in an intervening unit, the target is in cover, even if it is completely visible to the firer.

Page 51 says it don't count.

the only way for MCs to be considered "in Cover" is to be 50% blocked in LOS, or via a Special rule that grants them a cover save.

Fedrail - like all things, they start off telling you the rules for Infantry, and then tell you how other things alter (or dont) the base rules.

As noted above, the rules for Monstrous Creatures specifically overrides the normal cover rules.

Isn't the "solution" to give him a 5+ cover save, or say he's right if he rolls odds on a D6? Is it worth fighting about?

I would take a picture though just to prove I was right after the game was over.

I posted this during game so I had the answer. And no it's not worth fighting about, but it's also how the game is not going to give my opponent a benefit when they wouldn't to me.

thunderingjove wrote:Isn't the "solution" to give him a 5+ cover save, or say he's right if he rolls odds on a D6? Is it worth fighting about?

I would take a picture though just to prove I was right after the game was over.

It is the right solution when you can't agree for sure whether a carnifex is 49% in cover or 51%. It is not when the opponent clearly misinterprets a rule and the carnifex should not have cover at all.

mercer wrote:I posted this during game so I had the answer. And no it's not worth fighting about, but it's also how the game is not going to give my opponent a benefit when they wouldn't to me.

Sounds like there's only one way to solve this problem...

lol antique!

Shiney Sluggas! *paints them bloo*