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Okay this thread is to save another, I am hoping it will work.

Now, in the "chaos has won" thread it started to turn into Tau vs Imperium. The Tau side of the argument mainly fueled by one guy.
So what do you think? Is the Tau "Empire" a looming threat to the Imperium that will eventually be its downfall? Or are they just a blip in the timeline that is 40k?

Have at it dakka!

I love my Tau but they are comparatively tiny and just a blip in the big scheme of things.

Tau are quite powerful, but when it comes to the great scale of things - Imperium wins in every way.
Because it's no matter how much advanced technology you have, the share numbers of Imperial troops is quite enough to defeat them.
I would say that they are just a "blip". A new race invented only to draw more money from fans and to draw attention to Asian people.

Brother Coa wrote:Tau are quite powerful, but when it comes to the great scale of things - Imperium wins in every way.
Because it's no matter how much advanced technology you have, the share numbers of Imperial troops is quite enough to defeat them.
I would say that they are just a "blip". A new race invented only to draw more money from fans and to draw attention to Asian people.

I agree, look at WWII. The Russians steamrolled through the German lines because they were willing to take losses and throw themselves at the German guns.

(Nobody better start making this thread about Nazi's now!!!!!!!)

Tau - the bane of the Imperium??? Maybe in Warhammer 50k, but atm there are just not enough of them.. considering their shorter lifespan, especially.

I think the Imperium as a whole does not consider these blue guys to be a threat:


Orks: There are probably more orks in the universe than human beings

Tyranid: Same here

Eldar: No Threat either..their golden age is over. They do not conquer, but defend

Dark Eldar: Special case scenario - I have no clue how BIG commorragh is, and how many DE are there, but I think they are even less then normal Eldar

Necrons: (atm) no threat.. their aims are not clear currently. If the C'tan would really want to destroy a race (suneating) instead of gettin' high on killing people physically while having a body of liquid metal, bye bye Imperium. The Emperor is crippled, he might protect Terra and its sun, but everything outside the solar system is doomed.

Chaos / Deamons... no clue yet

Considering that the Nids are encroaching on Tau space, I'd say they're going to have a serious uphill battle to be a real threat to the IoM in the future.

Their insignificance in the grand scheme of things is the only thing that's keeping them alive.

undivided wrote:Their insignificance in the grand scheme of things is the only thing that's keeping them alive.

Haha that is very VERY true.

The entirety of the Tau Empire is this miniscule little circle in the corner of the galactic south-east, entirely surrounded by Imperial space, plus a handful of worlds in the Jericho Reach, to the far galactic north-east from the Segmentum Ultima. Worlds threatened not only by the Imperium's Crusade in the Reach, but also Hive Fleet Dagon, a series of systems under the control of the Arch-Enemy, and the Deathwatch.

If the Imperium were willing to sacrifice the worlds of the Tau Empire, a well-spread salvo of cyclonic torpedoes would basically remove this race from the face of galactic politics for the next five hundred thousand years.

Tau are currently totally insignificant.

The only threat they pose to the IoM is the rapid rate of their technology advancing.

How it has been advancing is the big question. Were they helped along by the Eldar? Have they found an intact STC? Or, are they able to do this all on their own?

If they've been advanced with aid from the Eldar, they're not going to develop into much of a threat, as they're fairly close to the Eldar level of technology and won't be able to continue advancing.

If they have an intact STC or are really a species of amazing technical prowess, then their technological boom could continue for a millennium or more. At that point, they would be a very serious threat to anyone not working for the greater good.

Grakmar wrote:Tau are currently totally insignificant.

The only threat they pose to the IoM is the rapid rate of their technology advancing.

How it has been advancing is the big question. Were they helped along by the Eldar? Have they found an intact STC? Or, are they able to do this all on their own?

If they've been advanced with aid from the Eldar, they're not going to develop into much of a threat, as they're fairly close to the Eldar level of technology and won't be able to continue advancing.

If they have an intact STC or are really a species of amazing technical prowess, then their technological boom could continue for a millennium or more. At that point, they would be a very serious threat to anyone not working for the greater good.

On this subject it realy isnt to surprising they are where they are now. Warp space ime is much different from real space. 3000 years out hear could be 300,000 in the warp.

Meh. GW will probably retcon the all the current fluff and make the Tau empire be 1/3 of all space in the next codex for all we know.

Commander Farsight will carve his name on the heart of some chaos god or something equally silly.

Tau are a significant force on the Imperiums South-Eastern Fringe but outside of that they won't be a player, nor can they ever be until they find an efficient means of inter-planetary travel.

Dunno who can seriously claim that they're a serious threat to the Imperium right now though. The Imperial worlds along the borders of the Empire maybe, sure, but they're not potentially existential threats like the Necrons, Tyranids, or perhaps even Chaos.

The biggest threat of the Tau to the Imperium is idealogical rather than martial.

"What you mean don't have to constantly build guns and kill you, we just live in peace?"

Okay I know thats not going to happen, but you get the idea.

Andrew

Harriticus wrote:Tau are a significant force on the Imperiums South-Eastern Fringe but outside of that they won't be a player, nor can they ever be until they find an efficient means of inter-planetary travel.

Dunno who can seriously claim that they're a serious threat to the Imperium right now though. The Imperial worlds along the borders of the Empire maybe, sure, but they're not potentially existential threats like the Necrons, Tyranids, or perhaps even Chaos.

Wait until you see our dreadsuit with our crisis cannon and crisis fists and crisis charge....etc.... The imperium will tremble from the tread of countless immortal firewarriors (GW has no idea where you silly people got that low lifespan thing from)..

xXSir MontyXx wrote:

Brother Coa wrote:Tau are quite powerful, but when it comes to the great scale of things - Imperium wins in every way.
Because it's no matter how much advanced technology you have, the share numbers of Imperial troops is quite enough to defeat them.
I would say that they are just a "blip". A new race invented only to draw more money from fans and to draw attention to Asian people.

I agree, look at WWII. The Russians steamrolled through the German lines because they were willing to take losses and throw themselves at the German guns.

(Nobody better start making this thread about Nazi's now!!!!!!!)

And then the Russians massive armies were defeated from within! When the ideology of freedom and better living conditions ran rampant through the Union!

The Tau present an ideological threat to the IoM.

They prove that humans and xenos can live in peace as equals with good standards of living. This alone swayed an entire gulf region and the world of Taros to their cause. Tau as an ideology pose a larger threat to the IoM than anything excluding Chaos. If the Squats join them, then we can expect that going forward Tau are going to be a major contender on not just a political front, but also a growing military front. Squats posses to my knowledge FTL on par with the IoM, that knowledge would turn the Tau into more than a harmless blip imo.

While the IoM could muster a force to crush anyone of it's many threats, they seldom do more than dispatch task forces to deal with things. In the case of the Tau, one such force was stalled and recalled. The next incursion saw a Forgeworld's mineral source stolen by Tau forces being supported by the planets human population.

If more conflicts begin going the route of Taros, the IoM may have a bigger problem on their hands than they currently do. Especially if Squat tech meets Tau tech.

The Tau barely even posses Faster than light travel!
Hell, even the Kroot can travel farther and faster than them

They are a swarm of minnows in an ocean.

BeefCakeSoup wrote:

xXSir MontyXx wrote:

Brother Coa wrote:Tau are quite powerful, but when it comes to the great scale of things - Imperium wins in every way.
Because it's no matter how much advanced technology you have, the share numbers of Imperial troops is quite enough to defeat them.
I would say that they are just a "blip". A new race invented only to draw more money from fans and to draw attention to Asian people.

I agree, look at WWII. The Russians steamrolled through the German lines because they were willing to take losses and throw themselves at the German guns.

(Nobody better start making this thread about Nazi's now!!!!!!!)

And then the Russians massive armies were defeated from within! When the ideology of freedom and better living conditions ran rampant through the Union!

The Tau present an ideological threat to the IoM.

They prove that humans and xenos can live in peace as equals with good standards of living. This alone swayed an entire gulf region and the world of Taros to their cause. Tau as an ideology pose a larger threat to the IoM than anything excluding Chaos. If the Squats join them, then we can expect that going forward Tau are going to be a major contender on not just a political front, but also a growing military front. Squats posses to my knowledge FTL on par with the IoM, that knowledge would turn the Tau into more than a harmless blip imo.

While the IoM could muster a force to crush anyone of it's many threats, they seldom do more than dispatch task forces to deal with things. In the case of the Tau, one such force was stalled and recalled. The next incursion saw a Forgeworld's mineral source stolen by Tau forces being supported by the planets human population.

If more conflicts begin going the route of Taros, the IoM may have a bigger problem on their hands than they currently do. Especially if Squat tech meets Tau tech.

THe closer you get to the center of the Imperium the more fiercely loyal humans will be. Not to mention if the Inquisition gets annoyed by these traitors they will see it like a chaos infestation and send some virus bombs and cyclone torpedoes at them.

Tau: Your lack of WMD's disturbs me.

I agree that Tau aren't a threat now, but in say, 2000 years, they will be a pretty big problem. A major offensive against them crushed, they advance in tech extremely fast compared to the IoM. It isn't the Tau themselves, but the whole Empire. Their ideas of freedom, peace and harmony (admittedly being gained through war) attract many other alien empires who join them, not metioning Humans. So I reckon that they are roughly placed here: Chaos, Orks, 'Nids, 'Crons, Tau Empire

EDIT: Fix'd typos

The Tau are, at least on the fringe and for now, a possible ideological threat to the IoM, but that threat won't last.

Let enough worlds leave the IoM for the Tau Empire, and the Inquisition's response will be to declare those worlds Hereticus Extremiis, and enact Exterminatus upon them.

"Thought begets Heresy, Heresy begets Retribution."

Witnessing the destruction of entire worlds as every breathing thing on the planet is consumed by fire, devoured by viruses or, if the world is mineral rich, simply turning the planet into an asteroid field, will seriously hamper Tau expansion into other Imperial regions, as the populace of those worlds will, understandably, fear the same thing happening to them, and would not even entertain the thought of aiding a xeno seditionist.

winnertakesall wrote:I agree that Tau aren't a threat now, but in say, 2000 years, they will be a pretty big problem. A major offensive against them crushed, they advance in tech extremely fast compared to the IoM. It isn't the Tau themselves, but the whole Empire. Their ideas of freedom, peace and harmony (admittedly being gained through war) attract many other alien empires who join them, not metioning Humans. So I reckon that they are roughly placed here: Chaos, Orks, 'Nids, 'Crons, Tau Empire

EDIT: Fix'd typos

Thats the thing, they DONT advance extremely fast. While in the warp many more years passed then what we experienced in real-space.

The Tau are already dead. The IoM just wants there planet to be usable, instead of burned to a crisp.

The IoM don't feel the same about planet my Orks are on. Hmmm.... wonder why.

They're just tiny...but with the new codex, along with renamed squats, a vehicle with FOUR railguns and an array of other weapons, im sure they'll get a big cheesy expansion and become threating in the fluff and on the tabletop.

But, if Imperial Commanders learn from that one Catachan Commander "OH come on over we'll sign a peace treaty and have cupcakes and tea and stuff..." and then the Tau go, and get massacred, they should be forever insignificant .

As undivided said:

undivided wrote:Their insignificance in the grand scheme of things is the only thing that's keeping them alive.

And ultimately i believe that to be the case. The Tau aren't a significant threat to the IoM or any other race in the galaxy. The Tau haven't advanced into any 'deep' IoM regions, nor have they faced the full force of the IoM's military force* and instead have faced seemingly minor human opposition. As such, the Imperium hasn't done anything about the Tau and they likely won't unless they start making a name for themselves.

However, Tau growth is a double edged sword; if they get bigger then this will not go unnoticed and would likely attract the attention of those more powerful than them, causing them to warrant a large-scale attack from humanity, to wander into the path of a Waaagh or Hive Fleet or to actually attract the predations of Chaos. As I said, I don't believe the Tau can - nor have shown their ability to - stand up to these forces in a longitudinal manner; the Tau's current battles appear to have largely been a case of a stalemate, which unlike the IoM, Nids or Orks, the Tau can't afford due to their relative lack of size.
The Tau are expanding, but when they get bigger they'll attract more attention and then they will really be tested and drawn into a conflict I don't believe they could win**.
Therefore, IMHO the Tau would need to time any expansion very well and have a bit of luck on their side. For example, when the next Black Crusade or Hive Fleet hits, the IoM could be stretched too thin to be able to stop the Tau advance, therefore allowing the Tau to advance unmolested whilst they focus on a more sigificant threat. If the IoM survives this other threat and then pays attention to the Tau, then things could be getting messy (see **).

As it stands however, IMHO the Tau are a minor threat to the IoM and other races and they are naive of the galaxy, having little experience with both Chaos and Necrons (the latter of whom they once welcomed as saviours) and therefore pose little threat to anyone; causing no-one to pay attention to them; allowing them to survive.

That's what I believe at the very least.


*I'm not saying the IoM is the be all and end all, but ultimately the Tau doesn't have the depth and numbers to stand up to the Imperium.

**However, when such a conflict emerges, it will be an eternal stalemate within the fluff as the timeline won't be getting advanced and more people would start debates like this.

On a day to day basis, I'd guess the main threats the IoM has to combat are the Orks and traitors. Chaos usually takes the form of comparatively small incursions held off at Cadia and mopped up by the Grey Knights. Tyranids and Necrons are huge, but have not yet fully emerged. Dark Eldar have no real effect on the over-all universe. Eldar could be a bigger threath but they manipulate the IoM to bear the brunt of their conflicts. They could likely bring the IoM to its knees but wouldn't because it would have a bad effect on them. Tau are not emerging, they aren't large or numerous, and they have no where near the potential power like the Eldar right now. That said IF they continue expanding and advancing at the same rate then they might pose a threat in the future, but they will be a different enemy compared to any the IoM has faced before. It will be Empire versus Empire, not the IoM fighting off invaders.

To become an actual player in the Universe the Tau need to do several things:

Solve their FTL crisis. Expanding beyond a few systems will be impossible without it.

Become more Militarised. They have the advanced technology at an infantry and almost at a vehicular level but they need it on a fleet and air level, and they need large mechanized capability to combat titans. They also need large scale deployment of troops. Being outnumbered by races as advanced or even more so than them on a regular basis is not good enough.

Find a way of creating a loyal command base that doesn't rely on the Ethereals. Rebellions and dissent will be inevitable without regular Ethereal presence and its unlikely they can get enough of them to cover every world the Tau would want to conquer if they ever get to that point.

BeefCakeSoup wrote:
And then the Russians massive armies were defeated from within! When the ideology of freedom and better living conditions ran rampant through the Union!

The USSR broke up because of Gorbachov and Boris who wan't his own peace of land to rule ( the grater good ). Same happened here on Balkan, only LOT messier.

The Tau present an ideological threat to the IoM.

The Tau present ideological threat to the Imperium in the same way our war-gaming religion is posing threat to Christianity.

They prove that humans and xenos can live in peace as equals with good standards of living. This alone swayed an entire gulf region and the world of Taros to their cause. Tau as an ideology pose a larger threat to the IoM than anything excluding Chaos. If the Squats join them, then we can expect that going forward Tau are going to be a major contender on not just a political front, but also a growing military front. Squats posses to my knowledge FTL on par with the IoM, that knowledge would turn the Tau into more than a harmless blip imo.

You are forgetting that aliens have been hunting Humans since they have gone from Terra and colonize stars. That's 30.000 years of xenofobia - a great obstacle to the Tau grater good. And Taros have joined Tau because their Governor gain a planet of his own and he is not more paying tax to the Terra. And who are Squats? A strange man from GW tells me that they never existed...

While the IoM could muster a force to crush anyone of it's many threats, they seldom do more than dispatch task forces to deal with things. In the case of the Tau, one such force was stalled and recalled. The next incursion saw a Forgeworld's mineral source stolen by Tau forces being supported by the planets human population.

If more conflicts begin going the route of Taros, the IoM may have a bigger problem on their hands than they currently do. Especially if Squat tech meets Tau tech.

If Tau continues to harass Imperial worlds all they get will be Exterminatus upon their sept worlds. And we have all seen in Retribution how Exterminatus works.

AndrewC wrote:The biggest threat of the Tau to the Imperium is idealogical rather than martial.

"What you mean don't have to constantly build guns and kill you, we just live in peace?"

Okay I know thats not going to happen, but you get the idea.

Andrew

Actually, this is pretty true.

The Tau, in many ways, represent the ideal of empire the Emporer originally expressed (neat, orderly, peaceful, strong government, working to take care of it's citizens, etc).

The Tau are not insignifigant, precisely due to their size (makes them underestimated), their technology (well in advance of the imperium), and their ideology. They engendered a large crusade against them precisely because of their ideology. They then ground that crusade to a stalemate that a hive fleet caused a total withdrawl of.

They will be left alone far to much due to their size. However, unlike many other races they innovate, expand, and look towards the future. Their dynamic outlook will sway imperial worlds in a steady fashion. Other, smaller alien races will ally with them out of sheer necessity, and by the time enough resources can be devoted it will be to late.

Not saying they'll beat the Imperium, but I hardly think they'll be rubbed out and they are dangerous because of what they represent. The lion is big and fearsome, but the Tse Tse makes it look like a pathetic chump in the kills department.

Maniac_nmt wrote:

AndrewC wrote:The biggest threat of the Tau to the Imperium is idealogical rather than martial.

"What you mean don't have to constantly build guns and kill you, we just live in peace?"

Okay I know thats not going to happen, but you get the idea.

Andrew

Actually, this is pretty true.

The Tau, in many ways, represent the ideal of empire the Emporer originally expressed (neat, orderly, peaceful, strong government, working to take care of it's citizens, etc).

The Tau are not insignifigant, precisely due to their size (makes them underestimated), their technology (well in advance of the imperium), and their ideology. They engendered a large crusade against them precisely because of their ideology. They then ground that crusade to a stalemate that a hive fleet caused a total withdrawl of.

They will be left alone far to much due to their size. However, unlike many other races they innovate, expand, and look towards the future. Their dynamic outlook will sway imperial worlds in a steady fashion. Other, smaller alien races will ally with them out of sheer necessity, and by the time enough resources can be devoted it will be to late.

Not saying they'll beat the Imperium, but I hardly think they'll be rubbed out and they are dangerous because of what they represent. The lion is big and fearsome, but the Tse Tse makes it look like a pathetic chump in the kills department.

The Imperium is corrupt and has harsh living conditions because of its size, it has MILLIONS of worlds. The Tau will realize their way of living is EXTREMELY inefficient when they begin to grow in size. Populations will begin to lose rights and pay and they will lose support for the greater good rather quickly.

Grakmar wrote:Tau are currently totally insignificant.

The only threat they pose to the IoM is the rapid rate of their technology advancing.

How it has been advancing is the big question. Were they helped along by the Eldar? Have they found an intact STC? Or, are they able to do this all on their own?

If they've been advanced with aid from the Eldar, they're not going to develop into much of a threat, as they're fairly close to the Eldar level of technology and won't be able to continue advancing.

If they have an intact STC or are really a species of amazing technical prowess, then their technological boom could continue for a millennium or more. At that point, they would be a very serious threat to anyone not working for the greater good.

I'm actually shocked to think someone has to be helping them. Their rate of technological advancement is about the same as ours in modern history has been (3000 years has advanced both us and them at a similar rate).