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Asherian Command wrote:

KamikazeCanuck wrote:The Tau took over 20 Imperial worlds without firing a shot. If that's not a threat I don't know what is.

yeah that were undefended. And also it was not 20 planets lol. They were then retaken.

IIRC it was a score of worlds. I think score is British for 20. It's not about them being defended or not. Those worlds were annexed by the Water Caste. The Water Caste is by far the most successful caste of them all at conquering and adding new planets to the empire. That's the caste the Imperium should fear not the other more famous one.

Brother Coa wrote:
Wrong, the Imperium lost their held worlds in the Tau Empire. All Imperial worlds where regain ( beyond the border of 3'rd phase expansion ).

Page 14 of the Tau codex:

The Crusade was allowed to withdraw, allowing the Fire caste to swiftly reclaim those worlds it had lost to the Imperiums counter-attack at the outset of the conflict.

KamikazeCanuck wrote:

Asherian Command wrote:

KamikazeCanuck wrote:The Tau took over 20 Imperial worlds without firing a shot. If that's not a threat I don't know what is.

yeah that were undefended. And also it was not 20 planets lol. They were then retaken.

IIRC it was a score of worlds. I think score is British for 20. It's not about them being defended or not. Those worlds were annexed by the Water Caste. The Water Caste is by far the most successful caste of them all at conquering and adding new planets to the empire. That's the caste the Imperium should fear not the other more famous one.

Yeah... but if i recall correctly the imperium according to the cities of death book they reconquered those 20 imperial worlds.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

agnosto wrote:

Brother Coa wrote:
Wrong, the Imperium lost their held worlds in the Tau Empire. All Imperial worlds where regain ( beyond the border of 3'rd phase expansion ).

Page 14 of the Tau codex:

The Crusade was allowed to withdraw, allowing the Fire caste to swiftly reclaim those worlds it had lost to the Imperiums counter-attack at the outset of the conflict.

Read cities of death which was after this current codex.

Also The Zeist campaign brought the expansion to a stopping halt and the tau got slaugthered.
http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Zeist_Campaign

Asherian Command wrote:Read cities of death which was after this current codex.

LOL, all I have to go by is the codex. Alternate universes?

agnosto wrote:

Asherian Command wrote:Read cities of death which was after this current codex.

LOL, all I have to go by is the codex. Alternate universes?

Also can't forget this

Second Phase: The Crusade

In the Nimbosa Crusade, the Black Templars and Imperial Fists fought alongside other Space Marines Chapters to reclaim the world of Nimbosa from the Tau after the third sphere expansion.

The initial battles with the Tau took place in space aboard the orbitals the aliens had locked in geo-stationary orbit around Nimbosa. The Black Templars' Strike Cruiser Dorn's Wrath used its speed to evade the incoming fire and close to attack range. Using boarding torpedoes and Thunderhawk gunships it penetrated the hull of the target, designated Orbital Primus, and allowed the household of Castellan Folkert to board.

The Tau Fire Warriors stationed abourd Orbital Primus turned the corridors of the space station into killing grounds with a warren of deadly ambushes, but the Black Templar force countered this by splitting up into small squads and attacked the defenders from multiple directions, using grenades and chainswords to smash their way through the bulkheads. This enabled them to outflank the defending Tau forces, who were pitiful at close combat, and crush the resistance.

After fighting their way through to the gunnery controls of the orbital, the Marines were able to turn the guns of the station on the other orbitals. This, combined with the assaults of the Imperial Navy, was too much for the remaining orbitals to withstand.

Meanwhile, the Ultramarines first company smashed into the defending Tau garrison, eliminating the Tau's anti air turrets and making short work of the Tau leaders. The campaign ended with the successful recapture of Nimbosa and the destruction of the entire Tau garrison.

Nimbosa crusade

Asherian Command wrote:

agnosto wrote:

Asherian Command wrote:Read cities of death which was after this current codex.

LOL, all I have to go by is the codex. Alternate universes?

Also can't forget this

Second Phase: The Crusade

In the Nimbosa Crusade, the Black Templars and Imperial Fists fought alongside other Space Marines Chapters to reclaim the world of Nimbosa from the Tau after the third sphere expansion.

The initial battles with the Tau took place in space aboard the orbitals the aliens had locked in geo-stationary orbit around Nimbosa. The Black Templars' Strike Cruiser Dorn's Wrath used its speed to evade the incoming fire and close to attack range. Using boarding torpedoes and Thunderhawk gunships it penetrated the hull of the target, designated Orbital Primus, and allowed the household of Castellan Folkert to board.

The Tau Fire Warriors stationed abourd Orbital Primus turned the corridors of the space station into killing grounds with a warren of deadly ambushes, but the Black Templar force countered this by splitting up into small squads and attacked the defenders from multiple directions, using grenades and chainswords to smash their way through the bulkheads. This enabled them to outflank the defending Tau forces, who were pitiful at close combat, and crush the resistance.

After fighting their way through to the gunnery controls of the orbital, the Marines were able to turn the guns of the station on the other orbitals. This, combined with the assaults of the Imperial Navy, was too much for the remaining orbitals to withstand.

Meanwhile, the Ultramarines first company smashed into the defending Tau garrison, eliminating the Tau's anti air turrets and making short work of the Tau leaders. The campaign ended with the successful recapture of Nimbosa and the destruction of the entire Tau garrison.

Nimbosa crusade

So....what's that got to do with the Damocles Gulf Crusade?

agnosto wrote:

Asherian Command wrote:

agnosto wrote:

Asherian Command wrote:Read cities of death which was after this current codex.

LOL, all I have to go by is the codex. Alternate universes?

Also can't forget this

Second Phase: The Crusade

In the Nimbosa Crusade, the Black Templars and Imperial Fists fought alongside other Space Marines Chapters to reclaim the world of Nimbosa from the Tau after the third sphere expansion.

The initial battles with the Tau took place in space aboard the orbitals the aliens had locked in geo-stationary orbit around Nimbosa. The Black Templars' Strike Cruiser Dorn's Wrath used its speed to evade the incoming fire and close to attack range. Using boarding torpedoes and Thunderhawk gunships it penetrated the hull of the target, designated Orbital Primus, and allowed the household of Castellan Folkert to board.

The Tau Fire Warriors stationed abourd Orbital Primus turned the corridors of the space station into killing grounds with a warren of deadly ambushes, but the Black Templar force countered this by splitting up into small squads and attacked the defenders from multiple directions, using grenades and chainswords to smash their way through the bulkheads. This enabled them to outflank the defending Tau forces, who were pitiful at close combat, and crush the resistance.

After fighting their way through to the gunnery controls of the orbital, the Marines were able to turn the guns of the station on the other orbitals. This, combined with the assaults of the Imperial Navy, was too much for the remaining orbitals to withstand.

Meanwhile, the Ultramarines first company smashed into the defending Tau garrison, eliminating the Tau's anti air turrets and making short work of the Tau leaders. The campaign ended with the successful recapture of Nimbosa and the destruction of the entire Tau garrison.

Nimbosa crusade

So....what's that got to do with the Damocles Gulf Crusade?

Nimbosa Crusade secured Nimbosa permanently the Tau can't go back. And the Ziest campaign halted the Tau.

Asherian Command wrote:Nimbosa Crusade secured Nimbosa permanently the Tau can't go back. And the Ziest campaign halted the Tau.

I'm sorry but could you explain to me how that relates to the Damocles Gulf Crusade? As I mentioned earlier, all I have is the codex and I've skimmed parts of IA:3...

Asherian Command wrote:

agnosto wrote:

Asherian Command wrote:Read cities of death which was after this current codex.

LOL, all I have to go by is the codex. Alternate universes?

Also can't forget this

Second Phase: The Crusade

In the Nimbosa Crusade, the Black Templars and Imperial Fists fought alongside other Space Marines Chapters to reclaim the world of Nimbosa from the Tau after the third sphere expansion.

The initial battles with the Tau took place in space aboard the orbitals the aliens had locked in geo-stationary orbit around Nimbosa. The Black Templars' Strike Cruiser Dorn's Wrath used its speed to evade the incoming fire and close to attack range. Using boarding torpedoes and Thunderhawk gunships it penetrated the hull of the target, designated Orbital Primus, and allowed the household of Castellan Folkert to board.

The Tau Fire Warriors stationed abourd Orbital Primus turned the corridors of the space station into killing grounds with a warren of deadly ambushes, but the Black Templar force countered this by splitting up into small squads and attacked the defenders from multiple directions, using grenades and chainswords to smash their way through the bulkheads. This enabled them to outflank the defending Tau forces, who were pitiful at close combat, and crush the resistance.

After fighting their way through to the gunnery controls of the orbital, the Marines were able to turn the guns of the station on the other orbitals. This, combined with the assaults of the Imperial Navy, was too much for the remaining orbitals to withstand.

Meanwhile, the Ultramarines first company smashed into the defending Tau garrison, eliminating the Tau's anti air turrets and making short work of the Tau leaders. The campaign ended with the successful recapture of Nimbosa and the destruction of the entire Tau garrison.

Nimbosa crusade

Poor Space Commies All they want if for everyone to get along...

...under the leadership of Teh Space Pope and fighting for the Greater Good

agnosto wrote:

Asherian Command wrote:Nimbosa Crusade secured Nimbosa permanently the Tau can't go back. And the Ziest campaign halted the Tau.

I'm sorry but could you explain to me how that relates to the Damocles Gulf Crusade? As I mentioned earlier, all I have is the codex and I've skimmed parts of IA:3...

I am giving examples of the Tau forces being stopped. I am not talking about the Damocles Gulf Crusade. WRONG GUY. I wasn't the one talking about it, i was saying that the imperium is just better in the fact that it was able to beat the tau alot. Medusa V, they were slaughtered, though they believed they had gained the knowledge of the warp. and believing they killed Nurgle.

In the grand scheme of things, Tau is the toddler trying to take all the adults' shiny new toys while they argue amongst themselves, occasionally being swatted as it gets too obnoxious.

Melissia wrote:In the grand scheme of things, Tau is the toddler trying to take all the adults' shiny new toys while they argue amongst themselves, occasionally being swatted as it gets too obnoxious.

I hate to say it, but that's a good analogy

Melissia wrote:In the grand scheme of things, Tau is the toddler trying to take all the adults' shiny new toys while they argue amongst themselves, occasionally being swatted as it gets too obnoxious.

haha that is great!

agnosto wrote:
Page 14 of the Tau codex:

The Crusade was allowed to withdraw, allowing the Fire caste to swiftly reclaim those worlds it had lost to the Imperiums counter-attack at the outset of the conflict.

And it don't say that was the Imperial worlds, it say "counter-attack" because Tau have send their military advisors to few Imperial colonies, with initiate the crusade at the first place.
Tau only reclaim worlds lost to the crusade, gain nothing...

Great points from both sides.

In my opinion the few problems I see coming from an Imperium standpoint are these:

-Naval Power Iom vs Tau
-Troop Size Iom vs Tau
-Technology Iom vs Tau




1. The Imperiums navy is perhaps their single most impressive feature. The list of wins the navy has earned dates back to the earliest crusades in mans history. You will find very little debate from me that a decent sized Imperial Armada could bring a lot of pain to the table. However, factor in the enemy is no Ork sterring a big wheel. The leaders of Tau fleets are masterful tacticians that the Imperial Navy respects. The real threat from the Tau, is that you fight them as a whole with undivided leadership. The Imperial Navy tends to be split from the Guard and Astartes which can be cumbersome at times. While supreme command can be issued, it is generally not due to what a Horus did. The IoM has lost as many battles as it has won, simply because proper cohesion between the 3 elements of their forces couldn't be made. Only one time has Tau leadership ever had a split in decision making and that was with Farsight.

2. Numbers are great, but this isn't an all vs Tau discussion, it's what the IoM can send vs Tau. The Imperium can't send a massive force to wipe them out. If they could they would without a second guess, it's that a massive force being sent means Cadia might fall, or a WAAAGH might beat back a Guard line, or Nids might eat a forgeworld. The IoM has it's numbers tied up against a bunch of threats. What they can currently devote to the Tau isn't enough to defeat them and never will be, until they can close another front and afford to properly open a full front against the Tau. By the time they can, it is very likely the Tau will be in a position to meet and defeat an even larger force than last time. The Tau threat is a very real one that could take the fight to the Imperium very soon. Imperial leadership knows this and always keeps a keen eye on the Tau, dispatching whatever they can to slow them down. Most of the time however, these efforts are recalled and the Tau simply take the systems anyways.


3. The technology debate is endless, but it shouldn't be. The Tau outmatch the Imperium in this department hands down on the battlefield. The Tau can pop Land Raiders, Baneblades and Titans. These are all top tier weapons among the Imperium. As the tiers go down the Tau only get superior advantages in technology all the way down to Kroot, which have better weapons than Guard. Saying that heavy weapons make a difference is silly when Battlesuits were on the verge of wiping out Guard presence until Astartes invertvened on several occaisions. Tau have this advantage in spades, which doesn't mean Imperial tech is bad on the galactic front, but against Tau they are one or two generations behind.

Calling the Tau a joke is fine, just don't be suprised if their next codex puts them on a front deep in enemy lines with new technology and allies that narrow the gap in the odds.

agnosto wrote:
I'm sorry but could you explain to me how that relates to the Damocles Gulf Crusade? As I mentioned earlier, all I have is the codex and I've skimmed parts of IA:3...

Nimbosa was much, much later after DGC. It was near the end of the 41'st millenium, while DGC was 41.750 - same year the Tyranids first invasion.

According to the Space Marine codex Pg 48, during the Zeist Campaign the Space marines handed the Tau there behinds. And it states that they used the SAME tactics that the Tau use, hitting weak points, which destabilized the stronger ones. Classic Marine tactics, which shows that they are the Rapier to the IG Hammer. So Beef, this proves that the IoM are not constantly losing to the Tau. In fact it seems that in the Fluff the only way the Tau defeat the IoM is when they are understrength and outgunned. And that the IoM considers the Tau little more then pests. The Marines where all set to invade the Tau worlds. But got Recalled because there where more important threats to face. Now in the fluff the IG can out shoot the Tau with support weapons and Artillery, and win a war of attrition, while the SM's can out maneuver the Tau. Basically The Tau survive due to their small size, and the realitive lack of a threat they poise. And a 2+ plot armor save lol.


The following text is pretty much just my personal feelings on the tau.

Asherian Command wrote: Medusa V, they were slaughtered, though they believed they had gained the knowledge of the warp. and believing they killed Nurgle.

What? How the hell do they get all the way there? MEdusa V is near the EoT, Tau is on the other side of the galaxy...

Every codex makes that army sound the best. It's part of the sales pitch.

Who would buy a codex that made the army out to be a bunch of useless idiots who got killed all the time?

The Tau technology ISN'T as advanced as one might think. To "pop titans" they required a ridiculous amount of firepower-- and that's for a Warhound.

Don't think that only the Tau have tried to advance their technology to defeat the Imperium over the course of the history of the Imperium of Man. They aren't unique, to be sure-- the Imperium faces many empires like theirs. Imperial technology appears primitive from first glance, but it certainly isn't when you look at what it can actually do and how effective it is in use.

BeefCakeSoup wrote:
Calling the Tau a joke is fine, just don't be suprised if their next codex puts them on a front deep in enemy lines with new technology and allies that narrow the gap in the odds.

Or don't be suprized if GW get the Tau one big Tyranid attack

Brother Coa wrote:

BeefCakeSoup wrote:
Calling the Tau a joke is fine, just don't be suprised if their next codex puts them on a front deep in enemy lines with new technology and allies that narrow the gap in the odds.

Or don't be suprized if GW get the Tau one big Tyranid attack

That was Gorgon, if anything the next big fight will be the Iron Hammer Campaign. As it is described, it will be the largest encounter between Tau and Imperium to date. In all likelyhood it will be in the next Tau dex, which won't bode well for the Imperium. Guess we will have to see.

Brother Coa wrote:

BeefCakeSoup wrote:
Calling the Tau a joke is fine, just don't be suprised if their next codex puts them on a front deep in enemy lines with new technology and allies that narrow the gap in the odds.

Or don't be suprized if GW get the Tau one big Tyranid attack

seconded!

2. Numbers are great, but this isn't an all vs Tau discussion, it's what the IoM can send vs Tau. The Imperium can't send a massive force to wipe them out. If they could they would without a second guess, it's that a massive force being sent means Cadia might fall, or a WAAAGH might beat back a Guard line, or Nids might eat a forgeworld. The IoM has it's numbers tied up against a bunch of threats. What they can currently devote to the Tau isn't enough to defeat them and never will be, until they can close another front and afford to properly open a full front against the Tau. By the time they can, it is very likely the Tau will be in a position to meet and defeat an even larger force than last time. The Tau threat is a very real one that could take the fight to the Imperium very soon. Imperial leadership knows this and always keeps a keen eye on the Tau, dispatching whatever they can to slow them down. Most of the time however, these efforts are recalled and the Tau simply take the systems anyways.

The thing is they do have the numbers to wipe out the Tau. And they have sent them. However it seems something always diverts the Imperiums attention away from finishing the job.

Melissia wrote:The Tau technology ISN'T as advanced as one might think. To "pop titans" they required a ridiculous amount of firepower-- and that's for a Warhound.

Don't think that only the Tau have tried to advance their technology to defeat the Imperium over the course of the history of the Imperium of Man. They aren't unique, to be sure-- the Imperium faces many empires like theirs. Imperial technology appears primitive from first glance, but it certainly isn't when you look at what it can actually do and how effective it is in use.

Mantas and Barrucudas aren't ridiculous firewpower,

A transport ship and a ground support aircraft aren't game breaking doomsday weapons. It's just that they carry standard Tau weaponry for their size, which by Imperial standards is doomsday firepower.

If the Tau ever set out to make a weapon akin to a Titan, Gundams would officially be in Warhammer 40K and the war would end lol

Asherian Command wrote:

agnosto wrote:

Asherian Command wrote:Nimbosa Crusade secured Nimbosa permanently the Tau can't go back. And the Ziest campaign halted the Tau.

I'm sorry but could you explain to me how that relates to the Damocles Gulf Crusade? As I mentioned earlier, all I have is the codex and I've skimmed parts of IA:3...

I am giving examples of the Tau forces being stopped. I am not talking about the Damocles Gulf Crusade. WRONG GUY. I wasn't the one talking about it, i was saying that the imperium is just better in the fact that it was able to beat the tau alot. Medusa V, they were slaughtered, though they believed they had gained the knowledge of the warp. and believing they killed Nurgle.

Maybe that was me. How many worlds are in the Tau empire right now? 12? If so that would seem to suggest that all Imperial worlds that were annexed by The Tau Empire were reclaimed or destroyed. Perhaps the codex meant they relcaimed all of their worlds (The Tau ones) from the Imperium.

KamikazeCanuck wrote:

How many worlds are in the Tau empire right now? 12? If so that would seem to suggest that all Imperial worlds that were annexed by The Tau Empire were reclaimed or destroyed. Perhaps the codex meant they relcaimed all of their worlds (The Tau ones) from the Imperium.

Surely it was reclamation.

Tau Map in BRB page 170 shows 16 sept's. Should be the most recent.

BeefCakeSoup wrote:

Melissia wrote:The Tau technology ISN'T as advanced as one might think. To "pop titans" they required a ridiculous amount of firepower-- and that's for a Warhound.

Don't think that only the Tau have tried to advance their technology to defeat the Imperium over the course of the history of the Imperium of Man. They aren't unique, to be sure-- the Imperium faces many empires like theirs. Imperial technology appears primitive from first glance, but it certainly isn't when you look at what it can actually do and how effective it is in use.

Mantas and Barrucudas aren't ridiculous firepower

To bring down a Warhound Titan?
Yeah. They are. It's like if the Imperium were to use Lance weaponry on a Light Cruiser to hit an Ethereal, standing in the middle of a hill by himself with nothing around him for miles.
It's excessive, unnecessary, and I find it hilarious that Tau fans feel that it's somehow not ridiculous.

A transport ship and a ground support aircraft aren't game breaking doomsday weapons.

You know that the Manta is called a "Gunship", right? It has transport capacity simply 'because'.

It's just that they carry standard Tau weaponry for their size, which by Imperial standards is doomsday firepower.

The Tiger Shark is carrying Manta/Escort vessel grade weaponry.

The Tiger Shark AX-1-0 is barely the size of the fighters that the Imperium fields. The railguns it carried were not "standard Tau weaponry for their size".
That's like if a Thunderhawk carried a Lance battery.

If the Tau ever set out to make a weapon akin to a Titan, Gundams would officially be in Warhammer 40K and the war would end lol

The Tau won't ever "make a weapon akin to a Titan". Anyone who actually knows their fluff and has read the quotes about their mindset knows that the Tau feel that Titans are "crude and unsubtle weapons of war".

BeefCakeSoup wrote:

Melissia wrote:The Tau technology ISN'T as advanced as one might think. To "pop titans" they required a ridiculous amount of firepower-- and that's for a Warhound.

Don't think that only the Tau have tried to advance their technology to defeat the Imperium over the course of the history of the Imperium of Man. They aren't unique, to be sure-- the Imperium faces many empires like theirs. Imperial technology appears primitive from first glance, but it certainly isn't when you look at what it can actually do and how effective it is in use.

Mantas and Barrucudas aren't ridiculous firewpower

Mantas are meant to be the Tau equivalent to a Warlord titan. If it took more than a single Manta to take down a Warhound, thats pretty ridiculous firepower to do the job.

-Loki- wrote:

BeefCakeSoup wrote:

Melissia wrote:The Tau technology ISN'T as advanced as one might think. To "pop titans" they required a ridiculous amount of firepower-- and that's for a Warhound.

Don't think that only the Tau have tried to advance their technology to defeat the Imperium over the course of the history of the Imperium of Man. They aren't unique, to be sure-- the Imperium faces many empires like theirs. Imperial technology appears primitive from first glance, but it certainly isn't when you look at what it can actually do and how effective it is in use.

Mantas and Barrucudas aren't ridiculous firewpower

Mantas are meant to be the Tau equivalent to a Warlord titan. If it took more than a single Manta to take down a Warhound, thats pretty ridiculous firepower to do the job.

Tau arent experienced in warfare with ANYONE. Sending unnecessary firepower to kill a warhound was probably just making sure the thing died before it stepped all over them

Weapon in context.

Mantas are not the counter to a Titan. Can they counter a Titan? Hell yes they can, but I would put a Barracuda more in keeping with a vessel meant for dealing with Titans.

Even then, one Tau Soldier in an XV88 Battlesuit can put the hurt on a Titan. Several teams can put one down.


Mantas carry a standard loadout for what they do, a low flying fleet craft that drops small armies off needs to have the ability to cover hot LZs. Although they can be quickly retrofitted for maximum punkage. Sorry if those same weapons dunk on Titans.


No getting around it, Tau technology craps on Imperium technology in War.

I won't even get into how rediculous Battlesuit technology is. Suffice to say, they have weapons that turn Terminator Armor into piles of goo.