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ObliviousBlueCaboose wrote:Yeah and a Guardsmen with a missile launcher is a LOT cheaper then a crisis or broadside suit and a pilot. The money spent training him or her for the suit. The years it takes to actually become a crisis then broadside suit pilot. IoM can win a war of attrition, the Tau can't.

And the point is that the Tau never would fight a war of attrition. They fight in a way that is unlike any enemy the Imperium has faced before. They do not fight for pyrrhic victories, they do not hold ground, they do not build fortifications. They ebb and flow like water. When you think you have them pinned down, a mobile force outflanks and cuts you off. When you think you're been beaten and are about to be executed, they move onto another objective, leaving the few survivors inneffective and lost. They are efficient and mobile and adapt as quick as any other race, Tyranids included.

One of the most telling dangers to the Imperium, though, is best described in message picked up from a human left behind by the Imperium when it retreated. I'm paraphrasing, but it said:

"They gave us land to farm, homes to live in, weapons to defend ourselves and showed us a life far kinder than any in the Imperium. If this is representative of the Tau, then why are we fighting them when we could join them?"

rovian wrote:

Wrong winter came The US intervened in support with trucks otherwise the germans would have destroyed russia and 5 other panzer divisions could have been transfered the germans fought all the countries in europe and the united states and without us tanks and trucks they probably would have lost [t-34 are american designed and panzers were unfortuanately much stronger than all allied tanks as they nicknamed british tanks ronsons to light every time shermans tommy cookers]

just tired of that misconception.
I do not support nazi just hate the russians won by themselves.

I find your lack of historical understanding disturbing.

The tau being secretive, pogrom inducing space soviets fits sooo godamn well with the IP. What's really OOC is having one virtuous mary-sue civilization amongst a galaxy of morally ambiguous warrior species.

BeefCakeSoup wrote:
They prove that humans and xenos can live in peace as equals with good standards of living. This alone swayed an entire gulf region and the world of Taros to their cause. Tau as an ideology pose a larger threat to the IoM than anything excluding Chaos. If the Squats join them, then we can expect that going forward Tau are going to be a major contender on not just a political front, but also a growing military front. Squats posses to my knowledge FTL on par with the IoM, that knowledge would turn the Tau into more than a harmless blip imo.

While the IoM could muster a force to crush anyone of it's many threats, they seldom do more than dispatch task forces to deal with things. In the case of the Tau, one such force was stalled and recalled. The next incursion saw a Forgeworld's mineral source stolen by Tau forces being supported by the planets human population.

If more conflicts begin going the route of Taros, the IoM may have a bigger problem on their hands than they currently do. Especially if Squat tech meets Tau tech.

Taros is such a bad example to use for the Tau beating the Imperium, Taros was taken because they managed to bribe the planetary governor since they knew that an Imperial force would utterly decimate the Tau army and fleet, a fact that pretty much all the Tau know. It even goes on to further state in IA3 that the Tau know that they will never be able to beat the massive weight of the imperial armies if they presented themselves as a threat.

The imperium lost Taros due to the fact that the 13th Black Crusade was just about to begin when Taros seceded, and most of the reinforcements due for arrival on Taros were relocated to Cadia (most notably the redirection of a Titan maniple and a whole armoured regiment). In IA3 it also shows that the Imperial fleets had complete control of the space lanes of Taros, the Tau fleets couldn't take on the Imperial fleets head on. It's most likely that the Imperium wouldn't be able to defeat the Tau or perform exterminatus on their worlds due to the logistical restraints and the fact that the Tau aren't stupid enough to put a big shining beacon on their head saying "We're a big threat, send a dozen battlegroups and space marine chapters down our throats!" like the Orks do with their Waaaghs!

The amount of worlds the Tau have actually taken is probably exaggerated too otherwise they'd have probably taken half of Ultramar by now, after all, Tau players need a reason to battle on worlds other then Sept worlds!

@ Miriclefish, very poetic, but they have to have strategic locations that they HAVE to fight for. I've pointed out how the tau will hit and run but once they are drawn into a full set piece battle by a refinery, or a key manufacturing facility being threaten, they have to stand and defend it. Which lets the IG do what it does best. Hammer them into submission. And for the flowing tau style of combat, the marines do the same thing, precession strikes, only in 3+ armor...

What you described is the ideal tau way of fighting, which would work, if it was a perfect world. But get commanders who actually use more tactics then human waves... but no its not grimdark enough for humans to use tactics more advanced then the early 1700's...

@ Rovian. In the words of Sten: NO. The soviets where perfectly capable of winning by themselves. There was no chance of a German victory post 1942. Even if the Allies hadn't invaded. The soviets had 300 divisions at the in June 1941. By august they had 400, in spite of losing 50 divisions. The Germans only had around 200 divisions on the eastern front, at he height of their military power, but we are getting off topic.

Miraclefish wrote:

ObliviousBlueCaboose wrote:Yeah and a Guardsmen with a missile launcher is a LOT cheaper then a crisis or broadside suit and a pilot. The money spent training him or her for the suit. The years it takes to actually become a crisis then broadside suit pilot. IoM can win a war of attrition, the Tau can't.

And the point is that the Tau never would fight a war of attrition. They fight in a way that is unlike any enemy the Imperium has faced before. They do not fight for pyrrhic victories, they do not hold ground, they do not build fortifications. They ebb and flow like water. When you think you have them pinned down, a mobile force outflanks and cuts you off. When you think you're been beaten and are about to be executed, they move onto another objective, leaving the few survivors inneffective and lost. They are efficient and mobile and adapt as quick as any other race, Tyranids included.

One of the most telling dangers to the Imperium, though, is best described in message picked up from a human left behind by the Imperium when it retreated. I'm paraphrasing, but it said:

"They gave us land to farm, homes to live in, weapons to defend ourselves and showed us a life far kinder than any in the Imperium. If this is representative of the Tau, then why are we fighting them when we could join them?"

Yep Tau can out adapt tyranids which is rather scary.

There really shouldn't be much debate on the strengths of the IoM versus the Tau in a straight up fight. As it stands the IG, Titan Legions, Astartes, Inquistion, Imperial Navy would steamroller anything the Tau can field.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

FlammingGaunt wrote:

Miraclefish wrote:

ObliviousBlueCaboose wrote:Yeah and a Guardsmen with a missile launcher is a LOT cheaper then a crisis or broadside suit and a pilot. The money spent training him or her for the suit. The years it takes to actually become a crisis then broadside suit pilot. IoM can win a war of attrition, the Tau can't.

And the point is that the Tau never would fight a war of attrition. They fight in a way that is unlike any enemy the Imperium has faced before. They do not fight for pyrrhic victories, they do not hold ground, they do not build fortifications. They ebb and flow like water. When you think you have them pinned down, a mobile force outflanks and cuts you off. When you think you're been beaten and are about to be executed, they move onto another objective, leaving the few survivors inneffective and lost. They are efficient and mobile and adapt as quick as any other race, Tyranids included.

One of the most telling dangers to the Imperium, though, is best described in message picked up from a human left behind by the Imperium when it retreated. I'm paraphrasing, but it said:

"They gave us land to farm, homes to live in, weapons to defend ourselves and showed us a life far kinder than any in the Imperium. If this is representative of the Tau, then why are we fighting them when we could join them?"

Yep Tau can out adapt tyranids which is rather scary.

The Tau never out adapted the Tyranids.

Raze wrote:Considering tau are supposedly on their fourth sphere of expansion as of GW's latest tau related campaign, I'm sure that nimbosa is going to change hands in the next few years again anyways. but tau sure do love giving ground.

I want to see what the tau actually do to those humans in new fluff, beyond that totally out of character "GRIMDARK MODE+5" sterilizing the population kill their women burn their children BS. seems more then a bit of lazy writing to do this to the totally cooperative humans, who could become the tau empire's greatest resource, but allow the nissacar and others, who actively fought against the tau as an organised group, to grow and thrive in the tau empire at the same time..

Nimbosa was cleansed by BT. They may leave an outpost there....and come back in force if neccessary.

Tau background in the 5th edition and onwards:
Its not out of character, its a change GW made from 3th to over 4th to 5th ed.
Their 3rd ed codex began with a theme of coexistance in a perfect world. 4th moved on to realizing the darkness of the 40kverse.
5th ed fluff is up to the encounters of tyranids, not so nice eldar, necrons, etc. Tau didn't identify chaos correctly, so still surprises left...
Humans as a ressource are are dropped as a concept, since they tend to rebel and a "mon'tau" is civil war, so Tau don't like rebellions.
Bottom line, Tau actively control vespids and thus trust them. Tau don't fully control kroot, and thus distrust them.
Humans? Would fit into the kroot setup as distrusted , just "tools" for the greater good.
Seems like most threats are thrown off by intercepting "aliens", if these Tau are lucky this continues.
But, one issue remains, can Tau participate in a combined force against lets assume nids,without blathering on and on about their gretar good until their "allies" decide to feed the Tau to the nids just to gain a few moments of silence?

Kilkrazy wrote:

The IoM outnumbers everyone and always will.

Thanks KK, IoM now outnumbers orks etc....

undivided wrote:

Kilkrazy wrote:
However all this is pointless since the timeline does not advance.

Therefore, all arguments pertaining to; "The Tau will be able to defeat the Imperium\become a large superpower in the galaxy\do something of some significance, in X number of years" are rendered invalid.

seconded.

Maniac_nmt wrote:

Effectively it's a line of sight weapon, and only has a shorter range in the respect it's not a lobbed weapon.

Alternatively, if you want pure codex, Tau seeker missles > everything as they are unlimited range weapons.

May point to the humble hunter killer missile
Additionally, a imperial vortex missile does not only claim unlimited range, but instant removal.

IMO, the fact of planetary surfaces not being flat as your gaming table should be considered as a good hint why line of sight is inferior to out of sight weaponry when it comes to maximum range. Plus the environment of a planet could certainly consist of something else
than a gaming table and a few pieces of terrain can translate well.

mega_bassist wrote:So, from reading all the posts, this is what I gather:

1. The Tau will lose against the IoM if a full-sized Crusade would happen right now

2. With total numbers aside, the IoM (and fellow Dakkites) acknowledge Tau ground forces are a quick learning/adapting and dangerous enemy.

3. Tau Navy is advancing, but still not a viable threat - IoM can still pwn them w/o a seconds thought

4. The Greater Good is accepted by renegades/dissidents, but normal "citizens" and troops of the IoM are still devoted to The Emperor no matter what

Sums it up nicely.

I love how all the arguments are based on current or past fluff. GW already retconned the "near sighted" thing (it was in the 3rd edition codex but not the 4th); they'll retcon other things until Tau are on par with the other armies....unless they just squat the whole thing but I don't see that coming.

It's always funny how these threads always wind up turning into Tau haters demanding Tau supporters prove that they can stand up to the IoM and when examples are given, they find some way to discredit it.

I'm telling you, you're going to be fearing my crisis bombs, crisis fists and crisis cannons when ward writes our codex.

agnosto wrote:I love how all the arguments are based on current or past fluff. GW already retconned the "near sighted" thing (it was in the 3rd edition codex but not the 4th); they'll retcon other things until Tau are on par with the other armies....unless they just squat the whole thing but I don't see that coming.

Hrm?

It's always funny how these threads always wind up turning into Tau haters demanding Tau supporters prove that they can stand up to the IoM and when examples are given, they find some way to discredit it.

Except in every case where the "Tau supporters prove that they can stand up to the IoM"--it's situations where the freaking Imperial Guard is outnumbered almost 5:1 by Fire Warriors alone.

That's not counting the Kroot auxiliaries, human auxiliaries, etc.

I'm telling you, you're going to be fearing my crisis bombs, crisis fists and crisis cannons when ward writes our codex.

Too bad he's not writing your codex. Robin Cruddace is.

Kanluwen wrote:Except in every case where the "Tau supporters prove that they can stand up to the IoM"--it's situations where the freaking Imperial Guard is outnumbered almost 5:1 by Fire Warriors alone.

Yeah, GW's writing sucks then because there are a billion guardsmen to every firewarrior in the universe and the Tau, assaulting an IoM world outnumber the guard? Yeah.....right...

Kanluwen wrote:Too bad he's not writing your codex. Robin Cruddace is.

Ah, but I want my crisis bombs, crisis fists and crisis guns. I'll just go through the codex and write my own words in for the wargear.

So Robin Cruddace sucks? I never pay attention to who writes what so I genuinely don't know.

Kanluwen wrote:Too bad he's not writing your codex. Robin Cruddace is.

Where'd you get that info? Just curious...and non-confrontational

agnosto wrote:
I'm telling you, you're going to be fearing my crisis bombs, crisis fists and crisis cannons when ward writes our codex.

And you will fear the Emperor when he resurect and take a new crusade to cleanse the galaxy from non-humans

All that in new Imperial codex...

undivided wrote:

Kilkrazy wrote:
However all this is pointless since the timeline does not advance.

Therefore, all arguments pertaining to; "The Tau will be able to defeat the Imperium\become a large superpower in the galaxy\do something of some significance, in X number of years" are rendered invalid.

Exactly. Everything to do with 40K, basically.

Yep Tau can out adapt tyranids which is rather scary

WRONG!

The Tau should have a love hate relationship for the Imperium right now. The Imperium could launch a full scale crusade on them and not even notice the losses (that's the hate), also the Tau wouldn't be here if it wasn't for the Imperium teaming with them to kill the 'nids. They had adapted to pulse weaponry which is the projectile used by a huge margin of their forces.

Also say that the Tau beats the imperium in every way on the ground..... unlikely but say it happens because that is where they have a chance. They are now blockaded by Imperial ships and will either bombarded until they all die, or are just starved out......

The Tau have confused me fluff-wise for a long time. I understand why they're here, to give the 'manga' robo-philes something to collect and play, but since I don't read much of their fluff, I stay confused.

My simple assumption is that that they're supposed to be some self-sacrificing force of a growing egalitarianism set against the stasis or decay of a bloated Imperium and the self-serving forces of Chaos.

A young races' idealism struggling against the decadence of the past.

The only reason they aren't steam rolled is because the Imperium is so completely self-absorbed that they can't be bothered.

Plus, I think many Imperials secretly harbor some admiration for the race and what they've accomplished thus far... despite being xenos.

Tau have been made up to spread interest toward Asia ( Tau are modern day Japan when you look it that way ). And they needed someone with bad-ass tech, and they have given them little territory and no advanced FTL speeds to be equal with the rest...

agnosto wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:Except in every case where the "Tau supporters prove that they can stand up to the IoM"--it's situations where the freaking Imperial Guard is outnumbered almost 5:1 by Fire Warriors alone.

Yeah, GW's writing sucks then because there are a billion guardsmen to every firewarrior in the universe and the Tau, assaulting an IoM world outnumber the guard? Yeah.....right...

Kanluwen wrote:Too bad he's not writing your codex. Robin Cruddace is.

Ah, but I want my crisis bombs, crisis fists and crisis guns. I'll just go through the codex and write my own words in for the wargear.

So Robin Cruddace sucks? I never pay attention to who writes what so I genuinely don't know.

He's the guy who ruined the Nids codex but made IG the juggernaut they are today.

FlammingGaunt wrote:He's the guy who ruined the Nids codex but made IG the juggernaut they are today.

In that case I'll hope that since Tau have a few similarities with IG that he'll go that way with them.....

IG were transformed from one of the weakest books to one of the strongest. It would be awesome if the same happened to Tau.

FlammingGaunt wrote:
He's the guy who ruined the Nids codex but made IG the juggernaut they are today.

I absolutely love this idea, whenever it's expressed.

The Nids codex was, without a doubt, blatantly broken.

So of course when it gets brought into line with the majority of books, Nid players scream "HE RUINED IT!".

Kanluwen wrote:
So of course when it gets brought into line with the majority of books, Nid players scream "HE RUINED IT!".

Well, to be honest, I don't see 'nids having an easy go of it with grey knights and their great "All your MCs are disappeared" magic trick they can do with entire units of warriors and carnifexes with all their force weapon goodness..

I play Tau, I'm used to being curbstomped in cc, I'm sure 'nid players had a rude awakening when they stopped being combat gods...I mean it's a cazy universe when a marine can strike before a genestealer....

agnosto wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:
So of course when it gets brought into line with the majority of books, Nid players scream "HE RUINED IT!".

Well, to be honest, I don't see 'nids having an easy go of it with grey knights and their great "All your MCs are disappeared" magic trick they can do with entire units of warriors and carnifexes with all their force weapon goodness..

According to Tyranid players "nobody uses carnifexes anymore!", so that's irrelevant anyways

The book has barely been out. Of course we're still seeing the "sky is falling! sky is falling!" crap.

I play Tau, I'm used to being curbstomped in cc, I'm sure 'nid players had a rude awakening when they stopped being combat gods...I mean it's a cazy universe when a marine can strike before a genestealer....

Well, if you go by fluff...Marines do usually strike before Genestealers in combat.

Provided that the Marine isn't wearing Terminator armor and using a PF or Thunderhammer, that is.

The Tau took over 20 Imperial worlds without firing a shot. If that's not a threat I don't know what is.

Kanluwen wrote:
The book has barely been out. Of course we're still seeing the "sky is falling! sky is falling!" crap.

Yeah, I'd kill to have some of the stuff they do; I was looking through the codex and most of the army has rending or poison or something else and zoanthropes don't suck. Meh, some people just don't adjust well to change.

The thing with Tau is that they'd have to work really, really hard to make them worse.

KamikazeCanuck wrote:The Tau took over 20 Imperial worlds without firing a shot. If that's not a threat I don't know what is.

When?

Brother Coa wrote:

KamikazeCanuck wrote:The Tau took over 20 Imperial worlds without firing a shot. If that's not a threat I don't know what is.

When?

It was what casued The Damocles crusade. The Damocles Crusade was actually a defensive action by the Imperium. Damn Xenos.

KamikazeCanuck wrote:The Tau took over 20 Imperial worlds without firing a shot. If that's not a threat I don't know what is.

yeah that were largely undefended because they were being sent to other planets/systems. Etc.
Plus it was a small crusade.

Also to people who say the tau outadapted the Tyranid fleets.... Thats wrong. It is so wrong. The Tyranids only sent a small fleet and they were seeing how powerful this race was and saw what it could do and died giving its information to the hive mind.

KamikazeCanuck wrote:

Brother Coa wrote:

KamikazeCanuck wrote:The Tau took over 20 Imperial worlds without firing a shot. If that's not a threat I don't know what is.

When?

It was what casued The Damocles crusade. The Damocles Crusade was actually a defensive action by the Imperium. Damn Xenos.

Since then they took only few worlds, they try few systems but Imperium kick their little blue asses...
They could only gloat about Taros and nothing else...

Asherian Command wrote:

KamikazeCanuck wrote:The Tau took over 20 Imperial worlds without firing a shot. If that's not a threat I don't know what is.

yeah that were undefended. And also it was not 20 planets lol. They were then retaken.

And lost again after the cease fire and the IoM forces pulled back to go after that 'nid fleet....page 14 or 15 in the Tau codex.

agnosto wrote:

Asherian Command wrote:

KamikazeCanuck wrote:The Tau took over 20 Imperial worlds without firing a shot. If that's not a threat I don't know what is.

yeah that were undefended. And also it was not 20 planets lol. They were then retaken.

And lost again after the cease fire and the IoM forces pulled back to go after that 'nid fleet....page 14 or 15 in the Tau codex.

Wrong, the Imperium lost their held worlds in the Tau Empire. All Imperial worlds where regain ( beyond the border of 3'rd phase expansion ).