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Got a question...

Coteaz can shoot at a unit arriving from reserves within 12" of him.

If a drop pod lands and a unit disembarks, what happens? Does his unit shoot at the drop pod only? At the dreadnought + the drop pod? While the dreadnought arrived from reserves within 12", he was embarked at the time.

*EDIT*

Also, if a servo-skull is within 6" of the unit that deep-struck, and the unit deep-striking is killed....is the servo-skull removed from play?

In the old version of this rule (mystics) you could choose which to shoot at, the disembarking unit or the pod. I wuld say follow that unless you want to house rule it to something else until the FAQ arrives.

And I would say the servo skull is removed from play. You can't shoot at something if it wasn't there, so as soon as the model is placed the servo skull would self destruct.

Based on the rule for the servo-skulls, I had assumed that they were destroyed as soon as the unit moved within six inches. Since the unit arrived before it was destroyed, I would say that the servo-skull is destroyed. Regarding the first part of the question, I too would be interested in everyone's interpretation; I haven't had that situation come up yet.

If a vehicle drove onto the board near Coteaz, he'd shoot at the vehicle. It's the same with the drop pod, except that the unit inside can't choose to stay inside. The unit arrives inside the vehicle, and you can't shoot at a unit inside a vehicle.

On the one hand; units arriving from reserve inside a deepstriking vehicle are deepstriking; this is plain as day in the Deepstrike rules.

On the other hand, those same units, are disembarking from a vehicle; they had already arrived from deepstrike when Coteaz would have been able to fire(course he may be able to take out the pod before they get out, not that that would do anything to the unit other than possible damage from an "explodes" result).

Drop pods works no different than, say, a landraider deep striking and the exact same squad disembarking voluntarily. You may only shoot at the vehicle.

I would agree with only shooting at the vehicle and I think this would come down to a timing issue. I believe that once the drop pod hits the table then his ability would trigger. The squad would then disembark out of the drop pod.

However, to further confuse things, the latest rulebook FAQ states that models disembarking from a Drop Pod also count as Deep Striking.

However, to further confuse things, the latest rulebook FAQ states that models disembarking from a Drop Pod also count as Deep Striking.

I remember reading that too. Without any other information, it would seem to indicate that you'd be free to fire at both, but...

In the old version of this rule (mystics) you could choose which to shoot at, the disembarking unit or the pod. I wuld say follow that unless you want to house rule it to something else until the FAQ arrives.

Seems like a reasonable middle ground, if GW was interested in achieving such. Granted, that ruling was with the specific regard to Mystics and shouldn't automatically be assumed to be GW's position on a new codex.

It has always been that way, the FAQ just clarified it as some were confused; and I stated as such in my original post.

However, while they are arriving via deepstrike(and as such cannot assault out of vehicles with assault ramps nor open topped vehicles), they are doing such inside a vehicle as transported cargo, when they disembark, they are simply disembarking in the movement phase(which is an exemption clearly written into the deepstrike rules to deepstriking units not being allowed to move any further).

Exactly. This is no different from a DE Raider deep striking and the squad disembarking. The squad DID deep strike, but that was before they disembarked, so they couldn't have been a valid target.

The FAQ states that the unit in the transport counts as arriving by deep strike
Coteaz's rule states that he may shoot at units arriving from reserve within his line of sight. And this ability May be used multiple times.
If the unit came from reserves this turn and the conditions for coteaz's rules are fulfilled, then it seems that he would be able to take shots at both.

Another example, if you drove a rhino in from reserve fulfilling the conditions for Coteaz, he would be able to shoot at it. If you were to then disembark the unit inside he would be able to shoot at them as they also arrived from reserve this turn.

When the unit arrived, they were inside the vehicle. You can't shoot at a unit inside a vehicle.

After the unit arrives, the player can then choose to disembark. In the case of drop pods, the player has no choice, but either way, the unit has already arrived and the chance for Coteaz to shoot at them has passed.

bushido wrote:When the unit arrived, they were inside the vehicle. You can't shoot at a unit inside a vehicle.

After the unit arrives, the player can then choose to disembark. In the case of drop pods, the player has no choice, but either way, the unit has already arrived and the chance for Coteaz to shoot at them has passed.

So you're saying that if Coteaz' unit multi-meltas a deep-striking drop-pod before the dreadnought inside gets out...then what? You have to create new rules for it.

Alternatively...there's a simple check. Drop pod deep-strikes. Unit disembarks from drop pod.

Did the drop pod arrive from reserves within 12" of Coteaz?
Did the disembarked unit arrive from reserves within 12" of Coteaz?

Dashofpepper wrote:So you're saying that if Coteaz' unit multi-meltas a deep-striking drop-pod before the dreadnought inside gets out...then what? You have to create new rules for it.

Or you could do the same thing you do every other time a transport vehicle is destroyed, and have the dreadnought disembark.

somerandomdude wrote:

Dashofpepper wrote:So you're saying that if Coteaz' unit multi-meltas a deep-striking drop-pod before the dreadnought inside gets out...then what? You have to create new rules for it.

Or you could do the same thing you do every other time a transport vehicle is destroyed, and have the dreadnought disembark.

^Problem solved?

Coteaz is already creating a unique situation: a unit potentially shooting multiple times out of the normal turn sequence.

NOt really unique, just a copy of the old mystic rules

And in the old mystic rules you shot at the DP OR the unit inside, your choice.

nosferatu1001 has the right of it. That's how the mystics were FAQ'ed. One shot per deep strike, so if a Tact squad lands in a Drop pod and combat squads into two squads you can shoot at one of the three units that just popped on the board.

Dashofpepper wrote:
Did the drop pod arrive from reserves within 12" of Coteaz?

Yes.

Dashofpepper wrote:
Did the disembarked unit arrive from reserves within 12" of Coteaz?

No. It arrived from reserves in a drop pod. Then it disembarked.

It ALSO arrived via DS, according to the rules for embarked models.

It did two things: arrived via DS *and* disembarked.

nosferatu1001 wrote:It ALSO arrived via DS, according to the rules for embarked models.

It did two things: arrived via DS *and* disembarked.

Which isn't relevant to this discussion since Coteaz only allows you to fire at things when they arrive from reserve. He's got nothing for things Deep Striking outside of sometimes things that Deep Strike are arriving from reserves.

vonjankmon wrote:nosferatu1001 has the right of it. That's how the mystics were changed to work. One shot per deep strike, so if a Tact squad lands in a Drop pod and combat squads into two squads you can shoot at one of the three units that just popped on the board.

Being in an old FAQ doesn't make it right. That rule was made up, especially since, if you believe the occupants are a legal target, then they AND the vehicle could BOTH be shot at.

The fact is, when the unit arrives from reserve, it hasn't disembarked yet. Can you shoot an embarked unit?

How about another example: A Dark Eldar Raider (with Duke Sliscus in the army) Deep Strikes, and a Wych unit inside disembarks after it lands. Can you shoot the Wyches? No, because they aren't a legal target until long after* they arrived from reserves.

*In any game where timing is key, anything that happens immediately after something might as well happen 800 steps after something. The important thing is that it happens after.

DarknessEternal wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:It ALSO arrived via DS, according to the rules for embarked models.

It did two things: arrived via DS *and* disembarked.

Which isn't relevant to this discussion since Coteaz only allows you to fire at things when they arrive from reserve. He's got nothing for things Deep Striking outside of sometimes things that Deep Strike are arriving from reserves.

It arrived from reserves via DS, according to the rulebook.

It also arrived embarked, an proceeded to disembark.

Two separate thingx, only one of which is important

If I'm reading Coteaz' rules correctly they state that there is no limit to the number of times he can use this ability to shoot at reserves. Therefore it seems he could shoot both the pod and the squad as they both arrived from reserve.

Wrong take?

The debate is over exactly when Coteaz is able to take those shots. His rule does say immediately, which should mean as soon as the models arrive from reserve. This would mean that Coteaz doesnt care in the slightest if a unit has deepstruck earlier in the turn, he is only able to shoot at models as soon as they arrive.

So its possible that Coteaz can only shoot at the pod, since the pod is the only target *immediately* available when the pod and the unit inside the pod arrive from reserves.

Given how GW went on the faq for a similar ability in a previous codex they may well give Coteaz the option of which to target.

The least likely choice would seem to be giving Coteaz the ability to shoot at both, since technically by RAW its open to debate whether or not he can shoot at the embarked unit at akk.




Sliggoth

The thing is, when you roll for reserves, you roll for what is in the drop pod; the pod's just a dedicated transport.

So what arrived from reserve are the Tactical Marines. They just happen to be in their transport.

Unless you just say "drop pod" when you roll for reserves; but I'm sure that's not what most people do, especially with multiple pods.

Unit1126PLL wrote:The thing is, when you roll for reserves, you roll for what is in the drop pod; the pod's just a dedicated transport.

So what arrived from reserve are the Tactical Marines. They just happen to be in their transport.

Unless you just say "drop pod" when you roll for reserves; but I'm sure that's not what most people do, especially with multiple pods.

I'd agree here, you roll for units, not dedicated transports. The entry on your army list and codex would read "tactical marines" or "dreadnought" for which you had purchased a transport. What arrived from reserve was that unit.

It's still a muddy rule, but my *guess* is that they'll end up doing it the same as before and he'll get to shoot one or the other.

Here's my take on it, following the sequence:

Drop Pod enters play from reserves near Coteaz. Drop Pod contains a unit (we'll call it Dreadnought). Dreadnought was in reserve, and it is arriving, so Dreadnought is arriving from reserve.

Coteaz's ability then triggers twice immediately, allowing him to shoot at the Drop Pod (this point is uncontested) and potentially the Dreadnought. There are then two potential outcomes, but I'm not real sure about the rules for this particular thing so I'll just mention them both.

Outcome 1: Coteaz has to choose which shooting attack to resolve first. If Coteaz chooses to attempt to shoot at the Dreadnought first then he does nothing, because he can't target units inside transports. If Coteaz chooses to shoot at the Drop Pod first then he is allowed to do so - if the Drop Pod disembarks its unit (because it is destroyed, for instance) then Coteaz takes his second shooting attack, allowing him to shoot at the Dreadnought (because it's no longer inside a transport).

Outcome 2: Coteaz has to resolve both shooting attacks simultaneously. The shot against the Dreadnought fails, as mentioned above. Coteaz takes his shot against the Drop Pod normally.

In both Outcome 1 and Outcome 2, the Drop Pod will disembark the Dreadnought after the shots if it survives.

Whether or not the player follows Outcome 1 or Outcome 2 depends on whether or not he is allowed to choose the order that actions are performed. For example, if a special effect forces you to roll Morale checks on 2 different squads, does the controlling player pick which one to roll first?

For Coteaz, I think that the player would pick the order that the actions are applied, giving Outcome 1. This is because his ability says "immediately, out-of-sequence" - meaning that the 2nd use of his ability would interrupt the 1st use. So you would say "Ok, this Dreadnought is arriving from reserves, so I'm allowed to shoot at it immediately... wait, this Drop Pod is arriving from reserve, so I'm going to interrupt the sequence to shoot at the Drop Pod"


Automatically Appended Next Post:

targetawg wrote:

Unit1126PLL wrote:The thing is, when you roll for reserves, you roll for what is in the drop pod; the pod's just a dedicated transport.

So what arrived from reserve are the Tactical Marines. They just happen to be in their transport.

Unless you just say "drop pod" when you roll for reserves; but I'm sure that's not what most people do, especially with multiple pods.

I'd agree here, you roll for units, not dedicated transports. The entry on your army list and codex would read "tactical marines" or "dreadnought" for which you had purchased a transport. What arrived from reserve was that unit.

It's still a muddy rule, but my *guess* is that they'll end up doing it the same as before and he'll get to shoot one or the other.

Drop Pods are held in reserve. The unit that the drop pod is transporting is held in reserve. So, if both arrive, both are "arriving from reserve".

The argument that the Drop Pod is not arriving from reserve isn't really defensible. Coteaz's special rule says nothing about rolling.

Xarian wrote:Here's my take on it, following the sequence:

Drop Pod enters play from reserves near Coteaz. Drop Pod contains a unit (we'll call it Dreadnought). Dreadnought was in reserve, and it is arriving, so Dreadnought is arriving from reserve.

Coteaz's ability then triggers twice immediately, allowing him to shoot at the Drop Pod (this point is uncontested) and potentially the Dreadnought. There are then two potential outcomes, but I'm not real sure about the rules for this particular thing so I'll just mention them both.

Outcome 1: Coteaz has to choose which shooting attack to resolve first. If Coteaz chooses to attempt to shoot at the Dreadnought first then he does nothing, because he can't target units inside transports. If Coteaz chooses to shoot at the Drop Pod first then he is allowed to do so - if the Drop Pod disembarks its unit (because it is destroyed, for instance) then Coteaz takes his second shooting attack, allowing him to shoot at the Dreadnought (because it's no longer inside a transport).

Outcome 2: Coteaz has to resolve both shooting attacks simultaneously. The shot against the Dreadnought fails, as mentioned above. Coteaz takes his shot against the Drop Pod normally.

In both Outcome 1 and Outcome 2, the Drop Pod will disembark the Dreadnought after the shots if it survives.

Whether or not the player follows Outcome 1 or Outcome 2 depends on whether or not he is allowed to choose the order that actions are performed. For example, if a special effect forces you to roll Morale checks on 2 different squads, does the controlling player pick which one to roll first?

For Coteaz, I think that the player would pick the order that the actions are applied, giving Outcome 1. This is because his ability says "immediately, out-of-sequence" - meaning that the 2nd use of his ability would interrupt the 1st use. So you would say "Ok, this Dreadnought is arriving from reserves, so I'm allowed to shoot at it immediately... wait, this Drop Pod is arriving from reserve, so I'm going to interrupt the sequence to shoot at the Drop Pod"


Automatically Appended Next Post:

targetawg wrote:

Unit1126PLL wrote:The thing is, when you roll for reserves, you roll for what is in the drop pod; the pod's just a dedicated transport.

So what arrived from reserve are the Tactical Marines. They just happen to be in their transport.

Unless you just say "drop pod" when you roll for reserves; but I'm sure that's not what most people do, especially with multiple pods.

I'd agree here, you roll for units, not dedicated transports. The entry on your army list and codex would read "tactical marines" or "dreadnought" for which you had purchased a transport. What arrived from reserve was that unit.

It's still a muddy rule, but my *guess* is that they'll end up doing it the same as before and he'll get to shoot one or the other.

Drop Pods are held in reserve. The unit that the drop pod is transporting is held in reserve. So, if both arrive, both are "arriving from reserve".

The argument that the Drop Pod is not arriving from reserve isn't really defensible. Coteaz's special rule says nothing about rolling.

I think you just misunderstood me, but we're in agreement. I may not have been clear, mine was a response to people arguing that the unit wasn't arriving from reserve, the pod/etc. was and they were just transported. Both are arriving from reserve was what I was trying to say, since the pod is PART of the unit entry, and you roll for the unit entry, not for pieces of it seperately.

It's all a matter of timing, and to my understanding, drop pods operate in 2 stages when arriving from reserve:

1. Drop pod arrives from reserve, and scatters as appropriate

2. Contents of drop pod exit their dedicated transport.

Coteaz is fairly specific on his trigger conditions here (GK Codex, p45: "If an enemy unit arrives from reserve within 12 inches of Coteaz and within his line of sight...", emphasis mine) which suggests that Coteaz and company are stuck nuking the drop pod, as opposed to the contents, as the sequence of events goes like so:

1. Drop pod arrives from reserve via deepstrike, carrying a single dreadnought, landing within 12" and line of sight of Coteaz. Dreadnought and Drop Pod are on the table, as per the transport rules. Both have arrived from reserve at this point

1a. Coteaz has one eligible target, the drop pod, as the dreadnought is still embarked in the pod, and cannot have LOS drawn to it. Drop pod has presented itself as a valid target with distance to Coteaz, as well as arriving from reserve and presenting itself in LOS, the dreadnought has only met 2 of 3 of these conditions (reserve and distance)

1b. Coteaz fires on the drop pod, being the only eligible target.

2. Dreadnought disembarks, either because of pod destruction or resolution of pod's DS procedure. Because the dreadnought, at this point, has already ARRIVED from reserve, but was ineligible to be targeted by Coteaz due to LOS restrictions, our inquisitor friend cannot target the Dread, as it meets the LOS conditions for being a target only AFTER the option to fire on it has passed.