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Sliggoth wrote:There is nothing in the rules that suggests that the landing of the pod and the disembarking of the passengers is simultaneous. Reread the pod rule:

"Once the Drop Pod has landed"

This clearly tells us that the pod has already landed. Disembarking happens after the pod has landed. The pod HAS to already have landed for the passengers to disembark because disembarking involves placing models within a 2" distance from the access ponts on the transport.
Sliggoth

Dashofpepper wrote:

veritechc wrote:There is also nothing in the rules that says Coteaz and his crew's immediately can't be just after the drop pods immediately. I can see, fluff wise. Everyone holding fire until the hatches blow.

We can argue this until the Emperor rots on his throne but we can fix the fact that this codex has the most unresolved rule questions of any recently put out. How did they not play test this situation. Most of the armies are marines in this game!

I say wait for the FAQ.

Coteaz doesn't say that he may take an out-of-sequence shot simultaneously with the arrival of an enemy unit. It is immediately after their arrival.

When a drop pod touches down, it has not finished arriving yet - it has one more action tied into its deployment: Disgorging its contents. Once the deep striking unit has finished its deployment (IE, once the passengers have gotten out), Coteaz may immediately take a shot at any unit that has arrived from reserve and meets the other criteria.

As Dash said, it is immediately after their arrival that Coteaz takes his shots

Unit1126PLL wrote:
The old Daemonhunters mystics could. When a drop-pod deepstruck, they could (per the FAQ) choose to shoot either the pod or the contents.

Then we would be foolish to think it works some other way until/unless some future FAQ/errata changes things.

But dash also said the pod disgorges its contents. Thats not what happens, the passengers disembark, which is not an action performed by the pod.

The pod arrives, it doesnt eject then the passengers. Instead we are told that once the pod lands the passengers then perform an action to disembark. The pod and the passengers are two separate units, no matter how much some people seem to want them to be one unit.

The problem with the two immediately rules attempting to resolve then at the same time is indeed something to resolve.


Sliggoth

PS Most likely they will faq it to involve coteaz getting the option of which to shoot at, and thats how we are playing it locally until its faqed.

well the passengers disembarking and the pod disgorging its contents are the same phrase just using different words. Wheres the difference?
i dont think anyone is arguing they are the same unit, the patently arent. But they are both arriving from reserves together, and then immediately 'separate' when the pod lands.
but yes i agrees the two immediate rules are the issue and i doubt it will get resolved until an FAQ

The difference is that the pod disgorging its passengers would be an action taken by the pod, so it would mean that transport vehicles are taking the action. Disembarking by the passengers is a movement action undertaken by the passengers instead. It is critiacally important because of what sort of restrictions are placed on the units involved.

If a transport vehicle disgorged its passengers then the passengers would not have moved yet in the turn (barring some other rule that would count them as moving).

And we are told that the pod's passengers do disembark, so the passenegers then fall under all the limits and factors involved in the disembark rules. If the pod just spat them out different rules and limitations would apply.


............................................................................................

Looking at the old mystic rules those rules are a bit different from coteaz's rule. Mystics actually did act as an interrupt, getting to fire before the arriving unit gets to keep moving. Of course, mystics only were able to shoot at deep striking units, where Coteaz can shoot at units walking or driving onto the table so there are several differences.


Sliggoth

Revenent Reiko wrote:well the passengers disembarking and the pod disgorging its contents are the same phrase just using different words. Wheres the difference?

The difference is actually key to the "can't shoot the passengers" side.

The drop pod has finished moving. It's done, time for a new unit's action. That unit must be the embarked unit, but the point is the drop pod has finished it's movement. So there's nothing to interrupt. Drop pod is done moving. Now it's time for its passengers to take their movement phase, or for Coteaz to shoot the drop pod.

Perhaps. Both are trying to act simultaneously at this point.

see i wouldnt put it that way, the Droppod may have finished its movement, but within the movement of the Droppod is the disembarkation of the unit within.

I thought of a good analogy.

Black Templar Righteous Zeal: If the unit takes any wounds from shooting, it immediately moves towards the nearest enemy unit.

The Black Templar unit has three separate wound groups. A unit firing at them fires with a lascannon, a missile launcher, and three bolters.

The lascannon causes a wound, as does the missile launcher and two bolter shots. Since the unit is in the open, it gets no save against the Lascannon. The BT player allocates wounds, and before rolling any dice, removes the Lascannon wounded model accordingly.

At this point, he took a wound. Righteous Zeal causes the unit to move towards the nearest enemy unit. And...he doesn't get to use it yet. The unit shooting resolves ALL of its actions and the tageted unit resolves ALL of its saves until the entire sequence of actions is complete. THEN other abilities are triggered.

It comes down to this: May you have a drop pod on the table with embarked passengers? You may not. The sequence of actions engaged in the deployment is as follows:

1. Place marker (or drop pod)
2. Scatter.
3. Place Drop Pod
4. Blow Doors off (or just open the petals)
5. Disembark passengers
6. Action Completed

That sequence of actions may not be interrupted by another unit's action - save for potential mishaps, which affect placement. All units in 40k complete entire actions, perform their phase actions before anything else is done.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

Revenent Reiko wrote:see i wouldnt put it that way, the Droppod may have finished its movement, but within the movement of the Droppod is the disembarkation of the unit within.

Or another way to put it is that the drop pod has finished its placement on the table, but has not finished its deployment action.

That list of actions works very well up to step 4. Then we run into the problem that the disembarking is being done by a different unit, in this case the passengers. So the list is actually two different units performing actions, not one unit performing actions. Once we are done with the pod we can then move on to another unit. So we have two separate units actions interwoven here.

In this case we have the pod and the passengers arrive. Its only after they arrive that we go on to the blow off the doors and then the passengers disembark.



Whether or not there is any sort of interrupt (either from the immediately in the disembark or the immediate in coteaz's rule) we still bump into the problem that when the pod and passengers arrive, the passengers arent in los for coteaz's rule.

Coteaz's rule is very clear. The unit has to arrive within 12" and in his LOS. Which simply isnt possible for a unit arriving inside a transport.




Sliggoth

The disembarking may be being done by a different unit, but we are still on the Drop Pod's action:

It forces the unit to disembark. The unit isn't disembarking due to its "activation" but due to the drop pod physically ejecting them.

Once again, please read the actual rule. There is nothing, absolutely no word, hint or even a vague whiff of the pod ejecting the passengers.

Once the pod has landed the passengers must then immediately disembark, as normal. The passengers are doing the disembarking, and we have a clear rule for what passengers disembarking involves.




Sliggoth