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bushido wrote:

Unit1126PLL wrote:2) I will do better once you explain to me how you avoid the "must immediately disembark" clause in the droppod rules.

Coteaz also may "immediately" make a shooting attack. So whose "immediately" takes precedence? He can't wait until the squad gets out to shoot, and since the unit arrives (as if deep striking) inside a vehicle, it's not a valid target for Coteaz's immediate action.

Exactly, thats pretty much the whole problem....whos 'immediately' takes precedence?
I'm with Drop-pods immediate first, then Coteaz shooting at both Pod and the unit transported
EDIT:missed out a sentence

I've put forth a lengthy explanation of why the drop pod's immediately takes precedence - because 40k does not have interrupts.

A deep-striking drop pod does not land, and end the action. It counts as open-topped because the doors blow off on contact, and the unit immediately disembarks. We have to make up rules to interrupt that action.

As previously stated: There are no interrupts in 40k.

And worth noting: If the drop pod lands and gets shot at before its mandatory instantaneous action takes place...well, its not an open-topped drop pod is it? There is no allowance in 40k for a drop pod to be on the table with the hatches closed, subject to any action. If it is on the table, it *must* have the hatches down, and it *must have disembarked its unit.

As I said earlier - someone put some weight of rules behind the idea of action interrupts in 40k, and I'll reconsider the idea.

bushido wrote:

Yad wrote:

bushido wrote:
If you're going with that, you can also argue that he can shoot at any unit at any time so long as it has arrived from reserves and is within 12" of his squad.

Yes, though it's immediately. "At any time" may imply that the Coteaz player could choose when to shoot. Keep in mind that for the entirety of that player's turn. Any unit that arrives from Reserves, has arrived that way for the whole turn. So if they were to Move within 12'' of Coteaz, they would immediately get shot.

-Yad

Not quite. Coteaz's rule is: "If an enemy arrives from reserve within 12" of Coteas and within his line of sight, [...]."
If it had said: "If an enemy unit that has arrived from reserves is within [...]" then you'd be correct.

Unit1126PLL wrote:2) I will do better once you explain to me how you avoid the "must immediately disembark" clause in the droppod rules.

Coteaz also may "immediately" make a shooting attack. So whose "immediately" takes precedence? He can't wait until the squad gets out to shoot, and since the unit arrives (as if deep striking) inside a vehicle, it's not a valid target for Coteaz's immediate action.


The way I see it: He can either shoot at both the unit *and* the pod, or just the pod, depending on which special rule's "immediately" comes first.

I believe the pod's action resolves first in this case, as thats the initial action taking place.

Sequence as I see it:

Pod arrives from reserve, unit must immediately disembark attached to this event
Pod arriving triggers coteaz, who completes his action once the pod finishes, since it can't interrupt the pod's "immediately"

Then again, this feels a bit like I'm using the stack (ala mtg) which isn't the case frequently for 40k. But, I think the logic behind the sequence holds.

"Grey Knights Codex, p.45 wrote: I've Been expecting you: If an enemy unit arrives from reserve within 12" of Coteaz and within his line of sight, Coteaz and his unit can immediately make an out of sequence shooting attack against it. There iis no limit on how many times the ability can be used in a turn.

Here's the breakdown on how this works, as written...

If an enemy unit arrives from reserve within 12" of Coteaz and within his line of sight

Conditions for triggering, very simple... if a unit meets the following criteria:

1. an enemy unit
2. arriving from reserve
3. Within 12" of Coteaz
4. In LOS of coteaz

Then this ability will trigger. Drop pods, short-lived transports that they are, are still transports, have a transport capacity and carry embarked models.

A unit cannot disembark from a transport unless they are already embarked in said transport.

A unit has the same footprint as the transport they are in.

You cannot draw LOS to an embarked unit.

Coteaz and his unit can immediately make an out of sequence shooting attack against it.

The "immediately" implies that the attack is made when the pod makes touchdown. The "out of sequence" piece of this says that, yes, Virginia, this does go off before the pod drops out it's payload. Because the 2 units, the drop pod and the models embarked in it, are on the table at the same time, you check validity of the shooting attack for both of them simultaneously.

The sequence for drop pods DSing:
1. Place Drop pod on the table as a marker
2. Roll scatter
3. Move pod as indicated, adjusting for the pod's special rules, the pod is now officially on the table, with a squad of embarked models
4. Disembark embarked models

"I've been..." goes off when the drop pod officially ends up it it's final position on the table, and because it happens out of sequence, it is, indeed, interrupting the drop pod's process. It's not that difficult.

Dashofpepper wrote:And worth noting: If the drop pod lands and gets shot at before its mandatory instantaneous action takes place...well, its not an open-topped drop pod is it?

Actually, yes, it is. The rules for Drop Pods (Space Marine codex) state that once it is deployed it counts as open-topped, not once its "mandatory instantaneous action takes place."

As I said earlier - someone put some weight of rules behind the idea of action interrupts in 40k, and I'll reconsider the idea.

I gave up on interrupts a while ago because of other problems it can cause. Even without the idea of interrupts, the unit deployed is not a legal target, because when they arrive from reserves they are not in LoS, and when they deploy, they have already arrived (and are not in the act of arriving, as Coteaz's rule requires).

Seems to me everything would happen simultaneously. Cortez and his unit get off a shot with full SS bonus if using a blast marker, and the SS self destructs regardless if the unit is destroyed.

Dashofpepper wrote:I've put forth a lengthy explanation of why the drop pod's immediately takes precedence - because 40k does not have interrupts.

A deep-striking drop pod does not land, and end the action. It counts as open-topped because the doors blow off on contact, and the unit immediately disembarks. We have to make up rules to interrupt that action.

As previously stated: There are no interrupts in 40k.

And worth noting: If the drop pod lands and gets shot at before its mandatory instantaneous action takes place...well, its not an open-topped drop pod is it? There is no allowance in 40k for a drop pod to be on the table with the hatches closed, subject to any action. If it is on the table, it *must* have the hatches down, and it *must have disembarked its unit.

As I said earlier - someone put some weight of rules behind the idea of action interrupts in 40k, and I'll reconsider the idea.

That's your opinion, and that's fine, but there are no rules in favor of Coteaz *not* interrupting the normal sequence of things, since that's what his ability allows him to do anyway.

The pod's being open-topped is largely irrelevant since there are plenty of open-topped vehicles already in the game...none of which allow you to target the passengers inside. The fluff about the doors being blown off is just that: fluff.

bushido: You say that there are no rules in favor Coteaz *not* interrupting.

It is the opposite. Precedent, every codex in 40k, and the entire rulebook are the rules in favor of him not interrupting. There *is* no precedent or similiar situation to let any unit in 40k interrupt another unit's action with their own. Redirect or cancel (like a psychic hood) but not take their own action halfway through another unit's action.

It comes down to both sides saying immediately and deciding who's takes precedent. All 40k literature (fluff, rules, and codexes) favor the drop pod taking precedent. And your opposing argument is? .....

Repeating myself now...but part of a drop pod deployment is disembarkation of the unit inside.

If you have a rule that makes any unit disembarking within 24" of you immediately take a pinning test...they don't take it when the first model gets out. They take it after the entire unit has finished its deployment. Similarly, you don't get to interrupt a deployment with your own action - they finish it and you do yours.

But the pod deployment is separate from the unit inside the pod disembarking.

The pod deep strikes. This triggers coteaz's effect, one way or another. The pod is then done with its move and then we move on. At this point the pod and passenger have arrived from reserves. There is no need of an interrupt, because the passenger unit is a DIFFERENT unit. So regardless of whether or not anything in 40k can interrupt a units action......it doesnt matter for this case.


The vehicle deepstrikes and then we move on to the next unit. The passenger unit disembarks, the pod doesnt kick them out as part of its action, this is a separate action by a separate unit.



So next we either have the passenger disembark from the pod or we have have coteaz get his chance to shoot.

If we go with Dash's idea that there are no interrupts in 40k then we see that this firmly tells us that Coteaz only get to shoot at the pod and has no option to fire at the passengers. Since we have to complete one units action before even contempating doing anything with another unit then we get the following:


1) Drop pod and passnger make their reserve roll, get placed upon the table and successfully manage to land on the table.

2) This means that the pod and unit have arrived from reserves, Coteaz checks to see if the new arrivals meet his rule.

3) The passengers cant diesmbark yet since we still havent completed the pod's movement phase (need to check for dangerous terrain roll etc)

4) Coteaz checks range and LOS to the pod and passenger....passengers are still in the vehicle.

5) Done with pod movement and we then move on to the next unit, which in this case will be either coteaz shooting or the passengers disembarking. The order doesnt matter, since coteaz already had to do his check on los for the passengers.




So using the no interrupt in 40k idea, we find that Coteaz cant shoot at the passengers.



Sliggoth



PS Now if interrupts do exist in 40k we run into the problem of exactly when coteaz checks los vs exactly when the passengers disembark.

Sliggoth, deep-striking a pod full of passengers and stopping is *not* finished with its action. The pod deployment is *not* separate from the unit inside disembarking. Why? Because it is immediate and involuntary.

Dashofpepper wrote:Sliggoth, deep-striking a pod full of passengers and stopping is *not* finished with its action. The pod deployment is *not* separate from the unit inside disembarking. Why? Because it is immediate and involuntary.

A unit CANNOT be on the table and embarked in the pod simultaneously at any point, at all, ever. Period.

What Dash says here is right.

But the pod and the passengers are two different units, and as dash stated earlier we have to finish with one unit before we go on to the next unit.

So we must finish with the pod before we can move on to the passengers.

Yes, the passengers must then be the next unit that the player deals with, because the passengers must then immediately disembark.

But as outlined by dash earlier in this thread there is no interruption of the pod's movement, we have to have finished with the pod before we can move on to the passengers. So this does mean that the pod arrives....and then we proceed to the passengers.



Yes, the passengers must immediately disembark as the next unit moved by the player. The pod does not disembark the passengers, its the passengers themselves who are going to be doing the disembarking (once the pod is done and we can move onto the next unit).



Its rather interesting here tho, it appears that dash is saying in some posts that there are no such things as interrupts but then in other posts the passengers must immediately and involuntarily disembark. But....if we arent done with the pod then that would mean that this is an interrupt.



@unit1126pll The passengers do arrive in the pod, yes? The passengers then do disembark from the pod, yes? In order to be able to disembark from the pod, the passengers have to be inside the pod, at least for a microsecond. Perhaps what you are thinking of is that no unit can ever embark back onto the pod once the passengers disembark?

Sliggoth

Sliggoth wrote:But the pod and the passengers are two different units, and as dash stated earlier we have to finish with one unit before we go on to the next unit.

So we must finish with the pod before we can move on to the passengers.

Yes, the passengers must then be the next unit that the player deals with, because the passengers must then immediately disembark.

But as outlined by dash earlier in this thread there is no interruption of the pod's movement, we have to have finished with the pod before we can move on to the passengers. So this does mean that the pod arrives....and then we proceed to the passengers.



Yes, the passengers must immediately disembark as the next unit moved by the player. The pod does not disembark the passengers, its the passengers themselves who are going to be doing the disembarking (once the pod is done and we can move onto the next unit).



Its rather interesting here tho, it appears that dash is saying in some posts that there are no such things as interrupts but then in other posts the passengers must immediately and involuntarily disembark. But....if we arent done with the pod then that would mean that this is an interrupt.



@unit1126pll The passengers do arrive in the pod, yes? The passengers then do disembark from the pod, yes? In order to be able to disembark from the pod, the passengers have to be inside the pod, at least for a microsecond. Perhaps what you are thinking of is that no unit can ever embark back onto the pod once the passengers disembark?

Sliggoth

You aren't "moving on to the passengers" you're still finishing the action of the drop pod.

The drop pod states:

"Once the drop pod lands all passengers must immediately disembark".

This is why we're saying you're interrupting the drop pod, not the embarked units, action. The drop pod is the first unit we are dealing with, and it is forcing the disembark. It is part of the drop pods deployment.

Then coteaz's action takes place. He's not interrupting.

Unit1126PLL wrote:

A unit CANNOT be on the table and embarked in the pod simultaneously at any point, at all, ever. Period.

Bold statement.

pg.95, Deep Strike

First place one model from the unit anywhere on the table, in the position you would like the unit to arrive, and roll the scatter dice. If you roll a hit, the model stays where it is, [...]

Drop pod is placed, marines inside. Drop pod scatters, marines inside. Drop pod arrives, marines inside. Marines disembark.

bushido wrote:

Unit1126PLL wrote:

A unit CANNOT be on the table and embarked in the pod simultaneously at any point, at all, ever. Period.

Bold statement.

pg.95, Deep Strike

First place one model from the unit anywhere on the table, in the position you would like the unit to arrive, and roll the scatter dice. If you roll a hit, the model stays where it is, [...]

Drop pod is placed, marines inside. Drop pod scatters, marines inside. Drop pod arrives, marines inside. Marines disembark.

The model you're placing is simply a token to state where you've chosen. The model isn't deployed until after you finish the drop pods deployment action, which involves a forced disembark as part of the drop pod's original action.

The marines don't disembark, the drop pod forces the marines to disembark.

Then you might want to amend your original statement (even though there's nothing about tokens in the actual DS rule).

bushido wrote:Then you might want to amend your original statement (even though there's nothing about tokens in the actual DS rule).

That original statement wasn't mine.

There may not be anything about the word "token" but it sure does state "in the position you would like the unit to arrive.

IE: It ain't actually there.

Or we could look at the drop pod rules:


"Once the Drop Pod has landed, the hatches are blown and all passengers must immediately disembark"


Once the pod has landed. Once it has landed it has arrived, and we see that the passengers then disembark. That means that there is a clear timeline.

1) The pod arrives.
2) The passengers disembark.


The pod has to have landed before the passengers can disembark. Im sorry, but there is a brief instant when the passengers are inside the transport vehicle that is deepstriking; in order to disembark they HAVE to be embarked.

One thing happens first, then the next thing happens. It really is that simple.

Sliggoth

Sliggoth wrote:Or we could look at the drop pod rules:


"Once the Drop Pod has landed, the hatches are blown and all passengers must immediately disembark"

The pod has to have landed before the passengers can disembark. Im sorry, but there is a brief instant when the passengers are inside the transport vehicle that is deepstriking; in order to disembark they HAVE to be embarked.0

One thing happens first, then the next thing happens. It really is that simple.

Sliggoth

My emphasis.

The word "immediately" in the rule you quoted disagrees with you.

It literally means instantly, as in, the gap of time between the pod landing and the passengers disembarking is exactly zero. Immediately doesn't mean "After four seconds" or "after a day" it means NOW.

The idea that

Sliggoth wrote:there is a brief instant when the passengers are inside the transport vehicle

is directly contradicted by

Rules wrote:all passengers must immediately disembark

I really can't make it more clear.

When the drop pod arrives the passengers must immediately disembark. This means that they must be embarked...
Where were they when they arrived from reserves?
Certainly not on the board or they would never have been able to disembark from the drop pod they arrived in.

Immediately upon arriving from reserves the unit must disembark from the Pod, Coteaz may immediately take a shot at a unit arriving from reserves.

So when a Pod arrives the unit is embarked, if Coteaz take his shot after an embarked unit disembarks then he hasn’t taken his shot immediately so is no longer able to.

ChrisCP wrote:When the drop pod arrives the passengers must immediately disembark. This means that they must be embarked...
Where were they when they arrived from reserves?
Certainly not on the board or they would never have been able to disembark from the drop pod they arrived in.

Immediately upon arriving from reserves the unit must disembark from the Pod, Coteaz may immediately take a shot at a unit arriving from reserves.

So when a Pod arrives the unit is embarked, if Coteaz take his shot after an embarked unit disembarks then he hasn’t taken his shot immediately so is no longer able to.

Except it's not the pod arriving from reserves, it's the unit. The pod is just a dedicated transport. Unless you announce "I'm rolling for a drop pod" (which is against the rules) then it is the Dreadnought you just rolled for which arrives from reserves, via the mechanism of a drop pod.

EDIT: Additionally, if the Pod is indeed arriving from reserves, then it is doing so in addition to the other unit and Coteaz can shoot twice.

Dashofpepper wrote:There *is* no precedent or similiar situation to let any unit in 40k interrupt another unit's action with their own.

There is no precedent for shooting out of turn at a unit arriving from reserves either, so that's hardly relevant. This is a unique rule.

DarknessEternal wrote:

Dashofpepper wrote:There *is* no precedent or similiar situation to let any unit in 40k interrupt another unit's action with their own.

There is no precedent for shooting out of turn at a unit arriving from reserves either, so that's hardly relevant. This is a unique rule.

The old Daemonhunters mystics could. When a drop-pod deepstruck, they could (per the FAQ) choose to shoot either the pod or the contents.

Unit1126PLL wrote:

ChrisCP wrote:When the drop pod arrives the passengers must immediately disembark. This means that they must be embarked...
Where were they when they arrived from reserves?
Certainly not on the board or they would never have been able to disembark from the drop pod they arrived in.

Immediately upon arriving from reserves the unit must disembark from the Pod, Coteaz may immediately take a shot at a unit arriving from reserves.

So when a Pod arrives the unit is embarked, if Coteaz take his shot after an embarked unit disembarks then he hasn’t taken his shot immediately so is no longer able to.

Except it's not the pod arriving from reserves, it's the unit. The pod is just a dedicated transport. Unless you announce "I'm rolling for a drop pod" (which is against the rules) then it is the Dreadnought you just rolled for which arrives from reserves, via the mechanism of a drop pod.

EDIT: Additionally, if the Pod is indeed arriving from reserves, then it is doing so in addition to the other unit and Coteaz can shoot twice.

You don't seem to be following this very well.

Firstly how could you possibly think that a Pod doesn't arrive from reserves? "
One "leaves it in reserves at the start of the game, players may choose not to deploy one or more of the units in their army and instead leave them in reserve." Page 94
And
"Similarly, the player must specify if any transport vehicle in reserve is carrying any of the infantry units and/or independent characters in reserve. If they do, the unit and the transport will be rolled for together and will arrive together. Remember that a dedicated transport can only be deployed, and consequently can only be kept in reserve, either empty or transporting the unit it was selected with" Page 94 BRB
Then
"the player must roll a dice for each of his units in reserve." Page 94 How else is one meant to have a unit arrive from resrves than saying I'm rolling for X or Y now, now my ZZZ squad and the Tank.

So, the unit does arrive from reserve, so does the Pod. They, in fact, arrive together and after they have arrived from reserves the unit must deploy out of the Pod. Coteaz can't shoot the infantry/dread when it arrives from reserves as it is inside the drop pod and he can not draw LoS.

So, if the passengers must immediately disembark instantaneously with the landing of the pod then this seems to be acting as an interrupt...which dash seems to feel doesnt exist in the 40k universe.

And if we take the immediately in the pod rules to mean that it interrupts what else is going on, then why do we not look at coteaz's rule and see that it ALSO says immediately and would ALSO interrupt the action. So we then have two immediately/ interrupt rules hanging at the same time.


As has been pointed out several times in this thread, yes the pod and the passengers arrive from reserves together. Thats how the transport rules work, two units arrive together with one (or possibly two on a stormraven) passenger inside the transport.

..............................................................................................................



The whole idea of interrupts do need to be looked at for this rule however.

Coteaz's rule does say that if a unit arrives within the range and los then:

"Coteaz and his unit can immediately make an out-of-sequence shooting attack against it"


With immediately and out of sequence being included that would appear to indicate that this is indeed an "interrupt" and should take place immediately.

If coteaz's rule is not an interrupt, then we must allow the arriving unit to complete its movement before he gets to shoot. This means that a vehicle could drive on from reserves within the 12" and in los but then proceed to drive out of range and/ or los. A whole string of units could avoid the shooting attack this way, simply by moving past Coteaz and then out of range.

Spore mines offer an example of an "interrupt" type effect that already exists in 40k. If a model moves into base contact with a mine it immediately explodes, interrupting the unit's movement phase.



Sliggoth

The out-of-sequence refers to the fact thats its the enemy's turn, not that it is an interrupt.
and the immediately in the pod rules doest interrupt anything, as Dash has stated before, the arrival (landing and disembarkation) of the unit(s) arriving from reserves in a Droppod is simultaneous

There is nothing in the rules that suggests that the landing of the pod and the disembarking of the passengers is simultaneous. Reread the pod rule:

"Once the Drop Pod has landed"

This clearly tells us that the pod has already landed. Disembarking happens after the pod has landed. The pod HAS to already have landed for the passengers to disembark because disembarking involves placing models within a 2" distance from the access ponts on the transport.




Sliggoth

There is also nothing in the rules that says Coteaz and his crew's immediately can't be just after the drop pods immediately. I can see, fluff wise. Everyone holding fire until the hatches blow.

We can argue this until the Emperor rots on his throne but we can fix the fact that this codex has the most unresolved rule questions of any recently put out. How did they not play test this situation. Most of the armies are marines in this game!

I say wait for the FAQ.

veritechc wrote:There is also nothing in the rules that says Coteaz and his crew's immediately can't be just after the drop pods immediately. I can see, fluff wise. Everyone holding fire until the hatches blow.

We can argue this until the Emperor rots on his throne but we can fix the fact that this codex has the most unresolved rule questions of any recently put out. How did they not play test this situation. Most of the armies are marines in this game!

I say wait for the FAQ.

Coteaz doesn't say that he may take an out-of-sequence shot simultaneously with the arrival of an enemy unit. It is immediately after their arrival.

When a drop pod touches down, it has not finished arriving yet - it has one more action tied into its deployment: Disgorging its contents. Once the deep striking unit has finished its deployment (IE, once the passengers have gotten out), Coteaz may immediately take a shot at any unit that has arrived from reserve and meets the other criteria.

Sliggoth wrote:
If coteaz's rule is not an interrupt, then we must allow the arriving unit to complete its movement before he gets to shoot. This means that a vehicle could drive on from reserves within the 12" and in los but then proceed to drive out of range and/ or los. A whole string of units could avoid the shooting attack this way, simply by moving past Coteaz and then out of range.

I don't want to get involved with the Drop Pod debate as I can see it both ways, but I don't understand the above.
Surely a DE Fighter can turboboost onto the table, arriving within 12" of Coteaz, and not be fired upon because it is now 36" away and out of the range of Coteaz's weapons.