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The title says it all. In another thread we discussed about these weapons and the subject came up. As I promised, here we can discuss about it. Some, like me, feel it is an exelent firearm,while others thing it's rubibsh. Those others are wrong. I won't just go on about my evidence all at once, though. Let's have some nice clean discussion first, okay?

Oh, another thing. Please, no speculation. The only evidence that will be taken in account is the official material (rulebooks, art, novels and such).

Any gun that can blast a hole the size of a fist into a torso is ok by me

Toastedandy wrote:Any gun that can blast a hole the size of a fist into a torso is ok by me

+1 Anything that can blow chunks out of people that big seems to be a fairly effective gun...

It's good in it's role. High rate of fire, power, negligible recoil, short range, durable, with a large amount of alternative ammunition types, perfect for the Space Marine. Any other role and it's definitely not the best weapon to use.

Okay, where's the guy who said it was rubbish? I though he'd come by to even things up. Anyways, the thing is that he said that Bolters were nor so good for the Marines because or their ammo or something... I dunow. HERP DERP!

I think it's great, but only for space marines. Regular humans can barely use them, being at least 50 pounds. Mounted on a tank in the form of a storm bolter is fine, but not as an infantry gun.

In other words, not practical, but great.

Well rule book bolters and fluff bolters are 2 completely different things, realistically you need to look at the codex movie marines from a few years ago. Tabletop bolters and the space marines who bear them are seriously underpowered v fluff in the name of game balance. Bolters in the fluff can smash through power armour pretty easily blow huge chunks out of stuff etc etc. I dont think anyone could realisticallly argue that the bolter is a weak weapon (yes i do realise I just used the word realistic in a debate about a fictional weapon in a sci fi universe)

Boldters can't 'smash through power armour pretty easily', in all the books it takes a lot of bolts to slow down Astartes in armour and even then they need to hit the weak points.

They're made for dealing with most types of infantry, excepting haevy armored infantry. Nothing better against those than a heavy boltgun

Read the Salamander short story in Heroes of the Space Marines (or something along those lines) it says that they find people who have had their torsoes basically liquidised and the Marines explain that that was a Bolter round, so they are pretty powerful

Miraclefish wrote:Boldters can't 'smash through power armour pretty easily', in all the books it takes a lot of bolts to slow down Astartes in armour and even then they need to hit the weak points.

In the Horus Heresy series, Marines one shot each other with bolters much more often than it taking more than one round.

DarknessEternal wrote:In the Horus Heresy series, Marines one shot each other with bolters much more often than it taking more than one round.

Weren't those Power Armour Marks inferior though?

a Bolt shell can penetrate power armor if the armor is hit at an angle of somewhere between 80 and 100 degrees.


Power Armor(mostly the newer marks) is sculpted to deflect shots rather then absorb them. hence why earlier marks of power armor might seem to be inferior in some regards.

at medium to short range, bolt shells can simply flatten themselves against the ceramite.

at long range, bolt shells are actually more dangerous because they gain force due to the rocket propulsion.



Bolt shells are fired in a 2 stage system.

1st is an initial explosive stage contained in a jacket, identical to modern firearms. contrary to many peoples opinion, and all sculpts, artwork, and current fluff, bolt rounds are not caseless. this stage propels the shell to lethal velocity.

then the 2nd stage ignites. a miniature rocket increases the bolts velocity and killing power.


upon impact, the warhead inside the bolt round detonates. this is Deutrium, a hydrogen isotope used in Nuclear Fusion. No, its not an actual nuclear bomb. Hydrogen burns and, like most flamable materials, can explode violently if compressed. assumedly, the Deutrium is in a solid or liquid state. this isn't explained.

the actual round itself is made of steel with a Diamantine tip for piercing through armor.


this is for standard bolter rounds. other types replace the Deutrium core with another type of warhead.

Toastedandy wrote:Any gun that can blast a hole the size of a fist into a torso is ok by me

WIN


And my answer is: Those guys who said that bolter suck need to go to school and learn about firearms and ballistics and how bolter is making a short work of everything that goes toward Space Marine.

It seems they got the look pretty right in the Space Marine videos I've watched so far, better than DoW2 at any rate (although I think those are pretty accurate, just no explosion pulping torsos, etc).

daedalus-templarius wrote:It seems they got the look pretty right in the Space Marine videos I've watched so far, better than DoW2 at any rate (although I think those are pretty accurate, just no explosion pulping torsos, etc).

People will now say: "This is not true because video games aren't fluff..."

Brother Coa wrote:

daedalus-templarius wrote:It seems they got the look pretty right in the Space Marine videos I've watched so far, better than DoW2 at any rate (although I think those are pretty accurate, just no explosion pulping torsos, etc).

People will now say: "This is not true because video games aren't fluff..."

You've got a point as the Bolter will appear as the designers of the game imagine it to be, possibly not how it actually is

In DH, boltweapons of any kind (pistol, gun, heavy, whatever) all are given Penetration 4 (standard ammunition payload). This means it ignores the first 4 points of the target's armor rating (not its Toughness rating that further reduces damage).

This allows the bolt-weapon to instantly bypass all forms of flak armor and anything less-protective, including armored bodygloves, most forms of improvised, light cover, most cybernetic/augmetic body-plating, and reduces the effectiveness of Power Armor by roughly half (PA has variable armor ratings, depending on the pattern of the armor and the specific location hit, again depending on pattern of PA).

The round then enters the target's body and explodes, allowing the target to "soak" up to their Toughness bonus in damage, suffering the rest as Wounds. Against *most* standard infantry forces (basic, grunt Guardsmen, Hive gangers, criminal thugs, and so forth) this equates to a one shot, one kill scenario. Tougher troops obviously, in the mechanics of Dark Heresy, have higher Toughness and more Wounds, and may take more shots to kill.

When a target reaches -1 or worse Wounds, they suffer a Critical Hit. The farther below 0 Wounds they are, the worse the Critical Hit is... with Explosive damage type (standard bolter damage class), critical hits become either horribly mutilating/outright lethal somewhere around -5/-6 wounds.

So... as a general-purpose assault weapon against a wide variety of targets (human, xeno and Other), the boltgun is a pretty dependable, efficient weapon system.

Belexar wrote:Okay, where's the guy who said it was rubbish? I though he'd come by to even things up. Anyways, the thing is that he said that Bolters were nor so good for the Marines because or their ammo or something... I dunow. HERP DERP!

I said they're ridiculously complicated and inefficient, as well as a logistical nightmare. I never said anything about their effectiveness.

Most Imperial tech is technologically inefficient, and that goes even more so for anything Marines use; you can see cases of the far lower-tech Tau coming up with more straightforward solutions: they may require something the size of a dreadnought to get armor equal to power armor, and they can't jam on as much firepower as a dread can carry without rendering it practically immobile, but they do have the presence of mind to duck tape a large jet engine onto the ones that are meant to be able to move around, letting them rapidly redeploy over a warzone, even if it's too clumsy to maneuver well close in. Imperial tech is sort of like a tiny Rube Goldberg device that launches a whirling ball of chainsaws at something, as compared to a large gun. There's no question that the Imperial tech is more advanced just to work as it's supposed to, but the gun is a more efficient means of accomplishing the same thing.

Sir Pseudonymous wrote:

Belexar wrote:Okay, where's the guy who said it was rubbish? I though he'd come by to even things up. Anyways, the thing is that he said that Bolters were nor so good for the Marines because or their ammo or something... I dunow. HERP DERP!

I said they're ridiculously complicated and inefficient, as well as a logistical nightmare. I never said anything about their effectiveness.

Most Imperial tech is technologically inefficient, and that goes even more so for anything Marines use; you can see cases of the far lower-tech Tau coming up with more straightforward solutions: they may require something the size of a dreadnought to get armor equal to power armor, and they can't jam on as much firepower as a dread can carry without rendering it practically immobile, but they do have the presence of mind to duck tape a large jet engine onto the ones that are meant to be able to move around, letting them rapidly redeploy over a warzone, even if it's too clumsy to maneuver well close in. Imperial tech is sort of like a tiny Rube Goldberg device that launches a whirling ball of chainsaws at something, as compared to a large gun. There's no question that the Imperial tech is more advanced just to work as it's supposed to, but the gun is a more efficient means of accomplishing the same thing.

This guy is right. The whole point of Imperial tech is that it's amazingly powerful, but also stupidly complex and inefficient, and it's slowly becoming even more so because even techpriests are only vaguely aware of how they work. No one can build a bolter, they just put the designated materials into a bolter making STC machine, say some prayers, and push a button. When the bolter-making machine breaks down, they say some prayers and head over to the bolter-maker maker. Emperor help you when that one goes.

Two previous posts = WIN

Okay, I see your point. The bolters may be a little overcomplicated, though nobody can argue it's not a good weapon. Even so, you can ger the same results with a Bolter pistol than with a Slugga, which is basically a big gun made from scrap metal. Orks are beautiful in their simplicity.

Sir Pseudonymous wrote:

Belexar wrote:Okay, where's the guy who said it was rubbish? I though he'd come by to even things up. Anyways, the thing is that he said that Bolters were nor so good for the Marines because or their ammo or something... I dunow. HERP DERP!

I said they're ridiculously complicated and inefficient, as well as a logistical nightmare. I never said anything about their effectiveness.

Most Imperial tech is technologically inefficient, and that goes even more so for anything Marines use; you can see cases of the far lower-tech Tau coming up with more straightforward solutions: they may require something the size of a dreadnought to get armor equal to power armor, and they can't jam on as much firepower as a dread can carry without rendering it practically immobile, but they do have the presence of mind to duck tape a large jet engine onto the ones that are meant to be able to move around, letting them rapidly redeploy over a warzone, even if it's too clumsy to maneuver well close in. Imperial tech is sort of like a tiny Rube Goldberg device that launches a whirling ball of chainsaws at something, as compared to a large gun. There's no question that the Imperial tech is more advanced just to work as it's supposed to, but the gun is a more efficient means of accomplishing the same thing.

a Bolter is no more complicated then any of our modern firearms.


it does require a supply line of ammo, but Space Marines never persue the kind of war where they will need to maintain supply lines.

they drop in, get the job done, and leave. they don't need to resupply.


the ammo is fairly complex, but once you are able to mass produce the ammo everything becomes alot easier. and yes, Bolt rounds are mass produced, along with most of the imperiums equipment.


the Imperial Guard does fight long protracted wars, but thats why they have Lasguns. no ammo to truck in, its just recharged with mobile generators or even light and heat.



and the Imperium is actually advancing its technology. just extremely slowely. they make sure something works before they use it.



and not all Imperial tech is made with STCs. Power Armor and Bolters are actually NOT STC built. Power Armor is constantly improving. Bolters are often hand built by the marine that will wield them.

the Ad Mech understands their technology, the higher up you are, the more you know. its the unwashed masses who don't know how things work.

Now THAT'S a good reply.

Grey Templar wrote:a Bolter is no more complicated then any of our modern firearms.

Actually... it kinda is. At least, it's far, far more maintenance heavy than our modern weapons (requiring far more constant maintenance than most modern weapons to avoid jamming and etc), and its ammunition is far more complex than modern ammunition.

I'm sure it's much simpler then we imagine. It's just a mag full of rickets and a firing mechanish. Marines themselves can make them. Also, I don't know if SM do the same thng, but all current soldiers are thought to assemble and dissasemble their weapons completely in the first stages of their training. I?m sure they all inderstand it very well.

Lol, the magazine has rickets

If it's firing Kraken rounds, does it then also have scurvy?

Possibly

Grey Templar wrote:

Sir Pseudonymous wrote:

Belexar wrote:Okay, where's the guy who said it was rubbish? I though he'd come by to even things up. Anyways, the thing is that he said that Bolters were nor so good for the Marines because or their ammo or something... I dunow. HERP DERP!

I said they're ridiculously complicated and inefficient, as well as a logistical nightmare. I never said anything about their effectiveness.

Most Imperial tech is technologically inefficient, and that goes even more so for anything Marines use; you can see cases of the far lower-tech Tau coming up with more straightforward solutions: they may require something the size of a dreadnought to get armor equal to power armor, and they can't jam on as much firepower as a dread can carry without rendering it practically immobile, but they do have the presence of mind to duck tape a large jet engine onto the ones that are meant to be able to move around, letting them rapidly redeploy over a warzone, even if it's too clumsy to maneuver well close in. Imperial tech is sort of like a tiny Rube Goldberg device that launches a whirling ball of chainsaws at something, as compared to a large gun. There's no question that the Imperial tech is more advanced just to work as it's supposed to, but the gun is a more efficient means of accomplishing the same thing.

a Bolter is no more complicated then any of our modern firearms.

Oh it really is. If it weren't, the Imperium would likely mass produce it on an even bigger scale. Everything about it is more complicated.

it does require a supply line of ammo, but Space Marines never persue the kind of war where they will need to maintain supply lines.
they drop in, get the job done, and leave. they don't need to resupply.

They can't rapidly re-deploy to other situations without a constant supply. Contrary to popular belief, Space Marines aren't only ever involved in rapid strikes. The battle for Macragge leaps to mind, as do other pitched battles.

the Imperial Guard does fight long protracted wars, but thats why they have Lasguns. no ammo to truck in, its just recharged with mobile generators or even light and heat.

What's your point? Space Marines don't use Lasguns.

and the Imperium is actually advancing its technology. just extremely slowely. they make sure something works before they use it.

It improves its tech, and it rediscovers certain things, but rarely if ever invents new concepts.

and not all Imperial tech is made with STCs. Power Armor and Bolters are actually NOT STC built. Power Armor is constantly improving. Bolters are often hand built by the marine that will wield them.

No they aren't, but they are not "constantly improving" it. Bolters are also not often built by the marines who weild them. As far as I'm aware, they are built on Forge Worlds or the Chapters own Forge. Have a source for this to prove otherwise?

the Ad Mech understands their technology, the higher up you are, the more you know. its the unwashed masses who don't know how things work.

Wrong. They understand how to replicate, they have little understanding for how things actually work, considering the knowledge for half The Imperiums tech has been lost never again to be re-covered, hence why STCs are so massively important.

No denying the bolter is a good weapon. But eventually the Imperium will simply lose its ability to make bolters, and then suddenly they might wish they had payed more attention to the inner workings of the pulse rifle. An even better example of the Imperium's failings is the Leman Russ. A great gun, and great armor, make it one of the best mass production tanks in the 40k universe. But those amazing pieces are mounted on a lopsided tank chassis appear woefully out of date in 1930. The LR can blow any modern tank out of the water, but it can't drive across a trench.