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Lasguns wouldn't 'jam' in the sense that some moving part is impeded, but I suppose it would be possible for dirt or something to screw up the 'focusing lens'(if that's the right term).

Bolters are definitely effective as a weapon, much more so than as depicted in TT. Realistically, anything would flak-level armor would be able to slaughtered with a single round to the torso(or head, obviously), if we're to assume that the explosion that that occurs when the bolt detonates is about the size of a basketball(that's what I've always thought, anyway).

The main problem I see is that the ammunition would be unfeasibly expensive to produce, and to some degree, complicated. The bolt rounds themselves are also unusually large(partly because it looks 'grimdark cool', partly because SMs can handle it 'anyway', partly because *maybe* it's a mechanical necessity).

In regard to ammunition not being a problem b/c of the SMs shock trooper nature, let's not forget that they should have access to a considerable wealth of resources and should be very independent and mobile as a fighting force.

Now, someone start a thread about the effectveness of shuriken weapons. Now *that* would be bring a heated debate.

.75 caliber, while large in an ammo sense, isn't exactly massive.


thats about the length of a human finger nail.


assembly line production makes the production of it easy.

the actual designing of the bolter ammo would have been the complicated part, but once you have a design and the machinery to make them it becomes easy.

And yet it's been proven that Bolters and the ammo are not easily mass produced.

maybe not bolters, but where does it say the ammo isn't mass produced?

Grey Templar wrote:

Melissia wrote:Where? The only time I've seen lasguns exploding was when some form of energy or munitions hit the power packs.

Lets see, I think it was in one of the Tanith novels.

I think its the one where they were on the planet with loads of dust storms and were fighting cultists.

some random banter in the book about how you better clean the lasgun of the dust or it might explode.

of course, it could be more propaganda so they keep their guns clean(the idea is keeping the guns fully functioning of course)

I dont know about this particular Tanith novel w.r.t overheating, but in one of the first 6 (i cant remember which omnibus its in) a lasgun does jam and Feygor takes it apart for the other trooper, spits in it and puts it back together and it works fine.


On Topic (and to answer a few earlier comments):
a Marine would be more than capable of keeping his Bolter working.

I havent read any evidence that Bolter ammo is difficult to make (not saying there isnt any, but i havent read any).

ANd who said the Tau had a lower technological level than the IoM? thats kinda the whole point of them is that they are more technologically advanced than the IoM, but of far fewer numbers.

That would be Sir Pseudonymous, and I agree with him, as his reasoning is sound.

the Tau don't have any different tech then the Imperium has, its that they have found a better way to do certain things.



the Tau do have areas where they have absolutly zero technology, namely true Warp Drives(a Biological limitation)


the Tau simply distribute their tech level more evenly then the IoM does.


the Imperium has Railgun technology, but its only currently used on Space Ships. the Tau have just been able to mount the tech on ground vehicles.


alot of mankinds tech is kept locked up by the Ad Mech too.

That doesn't counter the point in any way.

Did it need to?
Extra information is never a bad thing.

I have always seen the Tau as more technologically advanced than the IoM (in every day combat) but not in certain areas, or overall (Warp Tech for example, as said before)

Ok I dont think anyone else brought this up but I remember that in the DA codex they had a bolter with a sickle mag of 6 to 12 rounds, while also noticing that when i look at the pictures and after reading about 4 Black library books it rarely mentions the limit of how much each amrine carries, but common with a magazine the size of a space marines forarm they cant carry to many and also if you look at the pictures almost all of them have marines with no ammo holders what so ever so where in Tyrs name to the get It. I know there Space marines and Nearly ungodly creaures but i would even find it hard to win a war or even battle with 9 Bullets unless each space marines waits to get a 300 and one bullet achievement their is no way in hell its a good with an ammo supply of one cartridge per a man. I have seen bolters with 40 round mags but these are almost always see reserved with veterans. So please tell me how a bolter can be such a good gun when you only have 9 shots to go.

the Vanilla codex claims they are 30 round mags, with pistols having 7-10 rounds.


the barrel and drum mags used by Stormbolters and veteran's bolters are 40-60 rounds each.

Grey Templar wrote:the Vanilla codex claims they are 30 round mags, with pistols having 7-10 rounds.


the barrel and drum mags used by Stormbolters and veteran's bolters are 40-60 rounds each.

Poor poor Dark Angels Not only are they terribel in game but they also suck fluff wise, No wondering they're hiding their sins for they must have screwed up pretty bad for not only the Emporer to screw them but also GW.
But otherwise I will still say the bolter is pretty pathetic for somthing thats limited to basically street fights, but look at what it proebaly costs to produce somthing so hight tech must cost a pretty penny when probaly for the same efficeny you could also mass produce rocckit launchers FLuff wise seeing as the ammunition would prbaly be even cheaper then what ever element their sing for the explding shell.


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Grey Templar wrote:the Vanilla codex claims they are 30 round mags, with pistols having 7-10 rounds.


the barrel and drum mags used by Stormbolters and veteran's bolters are 40-60 rounds each.

And how often do you see a picture of them actually carrying ammo like seriosuly where in gods name do they do for when they empty that gun?

When they are out of ammo the enemies of the Emperor find out why no one has decided to do a serious redesign of the bolter and cut down on some of its weight...
That and they decide to break out the knives...

purplefood wrote:When they are out of ammo the enemies of the Emperor find out why no one has decided to do a serious redesign of the bolter and cut down on some of its weight...
That and they decide to break out the knives...

Silly Codex Astartes Knives are for Space Wolves. But if everything was better in the golden age Why was the armour so much crappy Seeing as they are not advancing is wrong tehy have to be advancing for the way they describe the power armour is that it’s getting better so the mk1 is far superior to the mk2. So why can’t they devlop a gun that uses ammo that is energy ways alot les takes up less space and can punch a hole through a space marines armour.... I believe the Cadians have trademarked that part of warfare for the Imperium and god forbid if some DERPING monkey takes that weapon and makes it equal to the Bolter in range and strength,
But seriously look at this point if a monkey just did what the Imperium of man could never do where does that leave us? Galaxy of the Monkeys.

actually, PA has constantly improved.

Mk1 wasn't sealed and so was useless except on earth.

Mk2 was the first fully sealed suit.


each Mk added more complex systems, such as comm systems, life support systems, and others.

Grey Templar wrote:actually, PA has constantly improved.

Mk1 wasn't sealed and so was useless except on earth.

Mk2 was the first fully sealed suit.


each Mk added more complex systems, such as comm systems, life support systems, and others.

That is what I rembered reading. But this universe where they have hit the technological wall and recinded is as an example the Bolter is kinda crap. Because for godsake they didn/t even deal with the size issue, or the possiblity that with advanced technology Stuff tends to become lighter and smaller, unlike the bolter which is your "ugly fat!@# uncle who only shows up to tell you that he was better in the good old days , and nothing is built the way it used to be" .

think of it like this,

Technological innovation isn't needed.



all the weapons the Imperium has are perfect for the jobs they do.


the Lasgun: unlimited ammo in the form of recharging it. its dirt cheap to manufacture. you can even stick it in a fire or leave it in the sun.

the Lemun Russ: cheap to make, will run on practically anything you put in the tank, powerful and heavily armored.

the Bolter: massive damage dealt to targets, large and intimidating, the wielder is the perfect soldier to compensate for the weapons shortcomings.



in all honesty, necessity is the mother of invention. the Imperium has all the weapons it need to prosecute its wars. it has no need to make better weapons, the weaponry it has is more then sufficient for the task at hand.

But then the imperiums golden age was wrong it was merely the peak before the fall. For if it had truly mastered weapon technology the bolter would almost the perfect gun, yes it has shortcommings, yes the Marines mostly make up for those shortcommings. But if they where still inventing and reserching to make the bolter better a marine with the new bolter would severly out class the marines with the old heavy ammo beast it is.
Also the imperium seems to missing the ingenuity of the Chinesse , they have yet to discover the ability of manufacturing chap knock offs of plasma weapons to which they can mas produce for Imp guard of even marines.
Also the fact that they dont have enough resources or knowledge to create massive amounts of plasma is bull crap they could simply just create a machine to build all the axact parts of the wepaons and then just assemble , no knowledge required for the gun just to build the machine replicating it.

But basically my main point is that maybe the Bolter is a good point But one
1. We are comparing it to modern day technology in which has no right to be compared against the futuristic weapons.
2. The current Bolter should have been replaced by now by somthing better because Advancment and warafre go hand in hand, when the enemy stops advaning the other enemy wins (Tyranids will eventually kill all humans for they are ever adavancing)
3. Too truly see its worth compare it to other futuristic weapons from other genre's and races( either 40k or Sci-fictions) for example the fact that the bolter has to kill by use of force like 90% of the time is sadly really stupid everybody should be issued Hellfire rounds to even stand a chance agaisnt vaporisng gun which only need to hit the target to vaporise the whole thing, where a bolter to the hand simply blows it off and leavves a pissed off Gaurdsman standing there. Pretty much at this level you could compare the bolter to the 50mm cannon used on some light tanks. Now if i was a futuristic soldier firing a gun like that I'd cry because The guy with the pistol that can blow of a land raider obviously has a Technolgoical edge on me, As for tyranids They will eventually became the ulitmate kiling machine weapons that ever adavance to better kill there foe follwed by bio enhancements to boot.

the Imperium doesn't need to equip all its soldiers with plasma weapons.

lasguns are more then sufficient for the job.

Grey Templar wrote:the Imperium doesn't need to equip all its soldiers with plasma weapons.

lasguns are more then sufficient for the job.

And an Imperium with all plasma weapons would say eat it to the max. sure its a good gun but to not advance is to die.

not in 40k,

Weakness is extinction, unchanging ways is not.

Grey Templar wrote:maybe not bolters, but where does it say the ammo isn't mass produced?

For one, it costs more money to get a magazine of boltgun shells for a bolter rifle than it does to buy a boltpistol.

And you could buy five lasguns for the same cost.

Source? where does it say that?

Grey Templar wrote:not in 40k,

Weakness is extinction, unchanging ways is not.

Saying that unchanging is survival, Kinda goes agaisnt everything history teaches you. Because there is always somting that is better and if the better thing is not you your empire crumbles. But suppose a race did appear and was suppremely better at what it did then the empire( cough*matt ward* cough* codex creep*cough) well what then does the empire stick to its guns (pun intended) and die because of this new race and thier new gun or do they change thier tactics/guns/armour, to deal with this new and current threat to thier survival. Even Darwin and almost all Historians and scientist would agree that not changing=death for it the humans ability to adapt and change to it enviroment is what made us able to take over the Galaxy in the first place.

maybe in our still primative world,

but in 40k, things have reached a point of not needing to go further.



there will eventually come a point where it is actually impossable to advance further, or advancement will reach a point of diminishing returns and will cease all together.

Grey Templar wrote:maybe in our still primative world,

but in 40k, things have reached a point of not needing to go further.



there will eventually come a point where it is actually impossable to advance further, or advancement will reach a point of diminishing returns and will cease all together.

Ok if they have truly gottent to that point I woulnd have had to bring up the point of the bolter being freaking huge beast of a machine, of that seeing as its still a point of Hiatus of Tech why can it not do its job better, Why cant they fix the overheating problem with the plasma , The tau did it? Why did the fluff mention that the Razorback with the lascannon and Twinlinked plasma rifle strain the chasis surely they could have easly fixed all these minor errors correct if they have hit such a wall. Another more point if what you just said is true we are allowed still allowed to critic it for its bacground was made in our primitive world and thus would most likely still follow the same rules as ours, also they would have createed the perfect shield and perfect sword to which Iam sure tehy would have gladly handed to the Emporer and such things as him getting his *** handed to him by Horus would have never happened but this Hiatus of technology you were speaking of was not the Perfection to which all problems were solved it was more like rapid development growth , beacuse the other races clearly have technologies we have yet to discover. So yes i Belive strongly that their is a vast amount of improvement left to be made on the bolter because for one it still can still be improved and that should be reason enough to call it a crapy gun.
If you gave anybody the chance to take plasma guns over bolters for no price increase in the fluff world or even gaming world everybody would yell hell yes to that idea because its light, wounds way more than what the bolter can harm, goes thorugh armour, and its light so not effefcted by the ellements.

iproxtaco wrote:It's good in it's role. High rate of fire, power, negligible recoil, short range, durable, with a large amount of alternative ammunition types, perfect for the Space Marine. Any other role and it's definitely not the best weapon to use.

It does not have "negligible recoil".

In The Lost Criid almost lost her arm firing a CSM's bolter.

Also, they are fantastic weapons, but are COMPLETELY outclassed by Pulse Rifles/carbines.


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Grey Templar wrote:maybe in our still primative world,

but in 40k, things have reached a point of not needing to go further.



there will eventually come a point where it is actually impossable to advance further, or advancement will reach a point of diminishing returns and will cease all together.

There really isn't any limit to technology...at all.

im2randomghgh wrote:There really isn't any limit to technology...at all.

Thank you sweet Tau person, But basically the wall of developing technology is either Stupidity, or the actaully possiblility of a perfect world in which we have the means thorugh technology to play god to the extent of which the basically anything possible can be done(I.E physics debate in which it starts to out class us all because we have not yet learned the true limits and capabilities of what can and cannot be done, This is because we are limited to are current knowledge of things we have interacted observed and theorised. Any body up for a problem envoling a cat in a box?) But until that we can still say thier is no limit to what technology can acehieve, and until then the bolter could be drastically improved to become a better gun or even be replaced all together by a more effective all around gun. Because right now the PLasma rifle completely outclasses the bolter in effectivesness and functionnality for what they were designed to do.

Grey Eldar, learn some freaking grammar and spelling. Your text is almost completely unbroken and is severely lacking in punctuation and spelling.

A Bolter isn't really a good gun, sure it has a huge damage capability, but that's mitigated by the amount of ammo available and the way in which it is fired. A sickle magazine with 30 rounds in it can be fired ten times. The space marine codex says it fires in 3 round bursts, and I have never heard of a fire selector for the thing. Secondly, the ammo is HUGE. Look at the bolter casings on the that Ultramarine scout seargent. That's the size of a single shot. Even a space marine couldn't carry more than a few hundred rounds of ammunition simply because of it's actual volume. In Vietnam it wasn't unheard of for a GI to carry 1500 rounds of m16 ammo. (There is a Vietnam vet who fought with the Marines in the village near my farm, he tells stories sometimes when we're drinking in his garage.)

Not to mention that the point where technology becomes redundant is when we become energy based beings. Short of that you should still be inventing.

Secondly, once you have a method of generating sufficient power rail-weapons are the way to go. A one kilogram slug when shot at sufficient velocity impacts with they same force as the bomb that destroyed hiroshima. Plasma doesn't really have gak on that, not to mention when a spinning round hits an object the space of damage inflicted is greater than that of its size. Go shoot a 98k through a wet block of clay, you can put your fist through the hole.

Another inanity of the Bolter is that its rounds explode on contact. That by itself is only worth it if you are shooting at something really big. A .75 caliber shot will blow apart any man, to something short of an elephant, sized creature. Just go look at the sniper footage from Afghanistan. A .50 caliber round will literally blow your torso into bits. The explosive is overkill in almost all cases, and you actually want a solid round anyways, as it allows the bullet to potentially pass through and wound anything behind the target as well. When the British were fighting the Zulus the bullet from the Martini-Henry rifle could easily pass through one warrior and kill the one running behind him. A comparative round, a hollow point, does incredible amounts of damage to a single target, but won't pass through with sufficient force to damage anything behind it.

So basically, a Bolter may be good a single fire weapon, but it really is not effective when used in a rapid fire setting where consumption of ammunition is high and the round is overkill for its target.

yes, the Tau "fixed" plasma.

said plasma weaponry is also much weaker then the Imperium's.


the Imperium isn't concerned about burning some dudes eyebrows off, it wants its enemies incinerated.



the Munitorum manuel mentions that Bolters have semi-auto, 3 round burst, and full auto settings. it then cautions that only space marines should ever fire the thing on burst or full auto.