Functionality and Effectiveness of the Bolter

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**Grey elder**

But still there are ways to improve its effectiveness to the point of creating a gun the allows the Marine to carry sufficent ammo, kill almost anything it hits(poison).... the list goes on, pretty much alot remains to be desired about the bolter as far as technology goes, because it would be very possible to create a more effective weapon with or with out the adavancement of technology. So as far as combat effectiveness i would rate it as subpar or maybe even ok but Can be greatly outclassed by other weapons for what is was designed to do.

**Seaward**

Grey Templar wrote:Source? where does it say that?

I predict yet another Dark Heresy game stat.

**The Crusader Of 42**

I read the book Dead Man Walking (never read that book BTW) lasguns had mantienance kits, for undisclosed reasons. Not to mention, why would someone make a lasgun so easy to take apart? If a lasgun never jams, why would one take it apart?

However, on to the bolters. I think of them as if someone made a min RPG, and found out how to make it fire rapidly. Their just mini missle lauchers.

On a side note, a Techpriest praying to the Machine God, for aid in repairing a broken machine reminds me of me praying to any sort of God at all, that my computer willnoy bluescreen.

**RayvenQ**

The Crusader Of 42 wrote:Not to mention, why would someone make a lasgun so easy to take apart? If a lasgun never jams, why would one take it apart?

Cleaning & General Field Maintianence? Just because it won't jam, doesn't mean that you don't have to take care of it.

**iproxtaco**

im2randomghgh wrote:
iproxtaco wrote:It's good in it's role. High rate of fire, power, negligible recoil, short range, durable, with a large amount of alternative ammunition types, perfect for the Space Marine. Any other role and it's definitely not the best weapon to use.

It does not have "negligible recoil".

In The Lost Criid almost lost her arm firing a CSM's bolter.

Also, they are fantastic weapons, but are COMPLETELY outclassed by Pulse Rifles/carbines.

Oh goody here comes the Tau. They have negligible recoil because Space Marines and Sororitas are it's main wielders, they both wear power armor, thus the recoil for them is negligible. For a normal human sure, but there are very few who choose to wield one, hence overall there's no point talking about it's recoil.
No they really really aren't. I'm sure that we've talked about this in other threads, but the bolter is the perfect weapon for Astartes. Pulse rifles and Carbines are equal to it in power shot for shot, but are inferior to a bolter in the bolters desired field of operation, which is close range. I would much rather have a guardsmen wield a pulse rifle over a lasgun if it had unlimited ammo and was as easy to produce, but not a Space Marine.

**Melissia**

How odd. I recall reading the distinction in dark heresy but I can't find it.

There has to be SOME distinction between auto weapons and stub weapons. There are plenty of automatic stub weapons and some semi-auto autoweapons so it can't be full auto...

Grey Templar wrote:Source? where does it say that?

Dark Heresy. A lasgun costs a civilian ~75 thrones (standard or at least the most common imperial monetary unit), a single bolter shell costs 16. Boltguns hold 24-28 depending on the pattern.

As for pulse riflescarbines, they don't really outclass boltguns outside of C:Tau.

**Grey Templar**

I would NOT consider Dark Heresy to be completely accurate.

Bolters might be expensive for the characters in Dark Heresy to accuire. I imagine bolters are held in awe and might even have restrictions on Civilian ownership, hence the increased cost.

but for Marines the cost wouldn't be significant. often, entire Forge Worlds are dedicated to suppying Astartes with equipment.

**Melissia**

Grey Templar wrote:but for Marines the cost wouldn't be significant. often, entire Forge Worlds are dedicated to suppying Astartes with equipment.

Marines don't use currency to begin with. I was merely putting the cost of the ammo and equipment in comparison to that of the Guard. Actually, Astartes stuff would be MORE extravagantly expensive.

**Grey Templar**

yes, but in that case Cost is moot.

the Astartes probably pay in protection for the Forge World. they don't want to lose their supply line.

**elysiandroptrooper108**

fluff wise, its great. It blows chunks out of enemies and has always been a great firearm. However in-game I dont like it. I much prefer the bolter with special ammunition provided by the Sternguard.

Also: What are the fire modes of a bolter? I always believed it was single and burst, never fully automatic.

**Grey Templar**

it has semi-auto, 3 round burst, and full auto according to the Munitorum Manuel.

marines rarely use the full-auto setting because they are so deadly accurate they don't need to use the spray n pray method. Semi-auto is just as good because they can fire, accuire new target, and fire again so quickly.

**Vice_Grip**

The bolter is one of two things, a very large Ruger 10/22 (recoil operated), or a Klasnicof AK47 (gas operated). in the SM codex that a bolter is extremely complex, and judging from the model (little sealed pipes above and bellow the barrel) that it is gass opperated. Firing a bolter shell through this would quickly foul the gas pistons (a fault of the round not the gun)(hence to two pistons). Given that it will quickly foul and sease to operate efectivly or all together, it is not a gould choice of weapon for engagements lasting for extended periods of time firing several hundred rounds.

As to the penitrating power, the .50 cal will go through an engine block with no trouble(solid steel), is not always explosive and does not poses rocket engines. Therefore th3 IIRC .75 cal miniture RPG that is the bolt gun *will have no problem peircing a tank* let alone power armour.

Acuracy, I dout its acruracy at range, but SM's usualy ingage at medium to short range, are excilent maksmen, and fire semi automatic or burst fire will more than likely hit the target.

The boltgun is as effective as it needs to be, SM's are a rapid strike fource, so operasion of the firearm is not impared, shortrange combined with semi auto makes it acurate, and a good heavy round makes it devistating.

The job defines this gun, comparing it to a lasgun is like comparing a fighter jet to a tank. They are two different things ment to do the same thing (blow stuff up) under different surcumstances, and therefore can not be acuratly compared.

When issued to gaurdsmen though, you have a different case, its to big, heavy and unreliable and does not fit the IG's needs.

**Melissia**

Grey Templar wrote:yes, but in that case Cost is moot.

the Astartes probably pay in protection for the Forge World. they don't want to lose their supply line.

Cost is NEVER moot.

Resources are finite, if only because it takes time and effort find and transport them. The Inquisition has used supply shortages to punish Space Marine chapters before for example.

**Seaward**

Melissia wrote:The Inquisition has used supply shortages to punish Space Marine chapters before for example.

Source?

**Melissia**

Seaward wrote:
Melissia wrote:The Inquisition has used supply shortages to punish Space Marine chapters before for example.

Source?

I don't recall the exact source, but for chapters such as the Black Dragons and others which are on the edge of acceptability or have wronged the Imperium, it's part of their penance along with their crusade (along with being refused the right to recruit initiates).

Besides, it's EASILY within the authority of the Inquisition to re-route supply convoys.

**Seaward**

Melissia wrote:
Seaward wrote:
Melissia wrote:The Inquisition has used supply shortages to punish Space Marine chapters before for example.

Source?
I don't recall the exact source, but for chapters such as the Black Dragons and others which are on the edge of acceptability or have wronged the Imperium, it's part of their penance along with their crusade (along with being refused the right to recruit initiates).

Besides, it's EASILY within the authority of the Inquisition to re-route supply convoys.

So, no actual fluff examples, just conjecture.

**iproxtaco**

Does absolutely everything need a confirmed source? IMO only the things which sound ridiculous and made-up should need a definite source. It's not too hard to imagine The Inquisition doing such a thing, I could have told you they would do that without reading it somewhere.

**KamikazeCanuck**

Space Marines usually have their own pacts with the Mechanicum and Navigator houses. It's how they maintain their independance from pesky organizations like the Inquisition.

**Ratbarf**

No I remember that story about the Black Dragons as well. I can't remember what codex it was in, or it may have been a WD article, but it was definitely there.

**Melissia**

KamikazeCanuck wrote:Space Marines usually have their own pacts with the Mechanicum and Navigator houses. It's how they maintain their independance from pesky organizations like the Inquisition.

And the Inquisition has favors with those two as well, nevermind "accidents" such as switching out authentic paperwork with forged paperwork that sends the munitions elsewhere, or more extreme measures such as sabotage. If you don't think either of those are within the capabilities of the Inquisition you haven't read any Inquisition fluff.

**KamikazeCanuck**

Melissia wrote:
KamikazeCanuck wrote:Space Marines usually have their own pacts with the Mechanicum and Navigator houses. It's how they maintain their independance from pesky organizations like the Inquisition.
And the Inquisition has favors with those two as well, nevermind "accidents" such as switching out authentic paperwork with forged paperwork that sends the munitions elsewhere, or more extreme measures such as sabotage. If you don't think either of those are within the capabilities of the Inquisition you haven't read any Inquisition fluff.

Space MArine vs. Inquistion debates seem to be in vogue right now but as I've said before: As always, it depends on the Chapter and the Inquisitor.

**Seaward**

Melissia wrote:
KamikazeCanuck wrote:Space Marines usually have their own pacts with the Mechanicum and Navigator houses. It's how they maintain their independance from pesky organizations like the Inquisition.
And the Inquisition has favors with those two as well, nevermind "accidents" such as switching out authentic paperwork with forged paperwork that sends the munitions elsewhere, or more extreme measures such as sabotage. If you don't think either of those are within the capabilities of the Inquisition you haven't read any Inquisition fluff.

That ignores the fact that, by and large, the Inquisition leaves Astartes alone. Meddling with them usually doesn't bring about good results.

**Melissia**

Seaward wrote:
Melissia wrote:
KamikazeCanuck wrote:Space Marines usually have their own pacts with the Mechanicum and Navigator houses. It's how they maintain their independance from pesky organizations like the Inquisition.
And the Inquisition has favors with those two as well, nevermind "accidents" such as switching out authentic paperwork with forged paperwork that sends the munitions elsewhere, or more extreme measures such as sabotage. If you don't think either of those are within the capabilities of the Inquisition you haven't read any Inquisition fluff.

That ignores the fact that, by and large, the Inquisition leaves Astartes alone. Meddling with them usually doesn't bring about good results.

Such a fact is tangental at best, and completely and utterly irrelevant at worst. I merely stated the capability was there, not that it was commonly practiced.

**Seaward**

Melissia wrote:
Seaward wrote:
Melissia wrote:
KamikazeCanuck wrote:Space Marines usually have their own pacts with the Mechanicum and Navigator houses. It's how they maintain their independance from pesky organizations like the Inquisition.
And the Inquisition has favors with those two as well, nevermind "accidents" such as switching out authentic paperwork with forged paperwork that sends the munitions elsewhere, or more extreme measures such as sabotage. If you don't think either of those are within the capabilities of the Inquisition you haven't read any Inquisition fluff.

That ignores the fact that, by and large, the Inquisition leaves Astartes alone. Meddling with them usually doesn't bring about good results.
Such a fact is tangental at best, and completely and utterly irrelevant at worst. I merely stated the capability was there, not that it was commonly practiced.

Well, no. You stated that the Inquisition does in fact cut off supply lines to chapters they're not fond of, not that they simply have the capability to do so. Your exact words were, "The Inquisition has used supply shortages to punish Space Marine chapters before for example." That's not arguing capability, that's arguing practice. And it's a practice that is, heretofore, unsubstantiated.

A loyalist Astartes chapter has the capability to board and carry an Imperial Navy ship because they like it. Doesn't mean they do it.

**Melissia**

Seaward wrote:Well, no. You stated that the Inquisition does in fact cut off supply lines to chapters they're not fond of, not that they simply have the capability to do so.

And I gave an example.

**Seaward**

Melissia wrote:
Seaward wrote:Well, no. You stated that the Inquisition does in fact cut off supply lines to chapters they're not fond of, not that they simply have the capability to do so.
And I gave an example.

No, you made up an example, as there's no fluff supporting it.

**im2randomghgh**

Ratbarf wrote:Grey Eldar, learn some freaking grammar and spelling. Your text is almost completely unbroken and is severely lacking in punctuation and spelling.

A Bolter isn't really a good gun, sure it has a huge damage capability, but that's mitigated by the amount of ammo available and the way in which it is fired. A sickle magazine with 30 rounds in it can be fired ten times. The space marine codex says it fires in 3 round bursts, and I have never heard of a fire selector for the thing. Secondly, the ammo is HUGE. Look at the bolter casings on the that Ultramarine scout seargent. That's the size of a single shot. Even a space marine couldn't carry more than a few hundred rounds of ammunition simply because of it's actual volume. In Vietnam it wasn't unheard of for a GI to carry 1500 rounds of m16 ammo. (There is a Vietnam vet who fought with the Marines in the village near my farm, he tells stories sometimes when we're drinking in his garage.)

Not to mention that the point where technology becomes redundant is when we become energy based beings. Short of that you should still be inventing.

Secondly, once you have a method of generating sufficient power rail-weapons are the way to go. A one kilogram slug when shot at sufficient velocity impacts with they same force as the bomb that destroyed hiroshima. Plasma doesn't really have gak on that, not to mention when a spinning round hits an object the space of damage inflicted is greater than that of its size. Go shoot a 98k through a wet block of clay, you can put your fist through the hole.

Another inanity of the Bolter is that its rounds explode on contact. That by itself is only worth it if you are shooting at something really big. A .75 caliber shot will blow apart any man, to something short of an elephant, sized creature. Just go look at the sniper footage from Afghanistan. A .50 caliber round will literally blow your torso into bits. The explosive is overkill in almost all cases, and you actually want a solid round anyways, as it allows the bullet to potentially pass through and wound anything behind the target as well. When the British were fighting the Zulus the bullet from the Martini-Henry rifle could easily pass through one warrior and kill the one running behind him. A comparative round, a hollow point, does incredible amounts of damage to a single target, but won't pass through with sufficient force to damage anything behind it.

So basically, a Bolter may be good a single fire weapon, but it really is not effective when used in a rapid fire setting where consumption of ammunition is high and the round is overkill for its target.

Agreed in every way.

Railguns are arguably the most deadly form of weaponry conceivable, as are gauss weapons (not like the necrons use, that is NOT how gauss weapons work).

If your barrel has enough heat resistance, you can fire at rates that make absolutely no sense. The projectiles are almost incalculably powerful. The force of the shot generates so much friction and thermal energy that it is turned to plasma, and it is followed by a plume of fire. When railgun munitions hit it is liquified by plasma, blasted with an incalculably powerful shell, then burned with an enormous blaze.

Picture of a modern RG firing:

Also, if this could be incorporated into small-arms rather than simply ship-mounted primary weaponry, a soldier with a rail-rifle would be ably to wipe his arse with tanks and demolish buildings.

/railgasm.