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Nope. It's not the price.

Nope, nor is it Change.

Hell, it's not even different rules etc.

It's us. We are a product of their success.

Take me, former employee (no less than three stints) loyal to the product, a total gaming whore, but most interested in friendly, narrative gaming. I buys what I likes, and I likes what I buys. Yet there are some aspects I wish they'd do more with. More terrain for a start (please...modular river/roads) more Fantasy novels from BL, plus sundry other niggles. The rest of it I'm happy with.

Then, we have purely for example, HBMC. Apart from the gaming whore aspect, we're pretty much diametrically opposed on everything else. How exactly is GW meant to please us both? Neither of us is in the right, as there is no right or wrong here.

If you like, we're the spoiled brats to GW's parents. They physically cannot please every single player. That they manage to keep their core gamers happy is a small miracle.

Some want a game based on competitive gaming, others want a more flexible ruleset, with custom options (like VDR used to do). Whilst not exactly mutually exclusive, every gamer has their preference as to which has greater precedent.

So face up to it. GW do really rather well, all things considered.

I disagree. Your theory is very dependent on vets.
The fact that newbies come into the game complaining about a lot of the same things we do means it's GW, not US.

Just want to expand a little. Apologies if this makes anyone posting whilst I'm typing appear to have missed stuff!


They are often compared to Warmachine and PP in general. Trick here is, WM and Hordes are both predominantly skirmish games, which is one of the reasons I personally don't get on with them that well. They also appeal to a speciific aesthetic. As such, they tickle certain fancies, and tickle them extremely well.

Then we look at GW in comparisson. One of my favourite aspects of Fantasy, is it's successful blending of so many tropes, both Fantasy and Historical into one game. If I fancy a bit of skirmish, I can download the Mordheim rulebook, or Necromunda if 40k is floating my boat. And it is this inherent variety in the game and it's universe that also attracts a far wider audience than Hordes or WM (currently) do. Think of it as the girl that everyone agrees is pretty, but who might not be the first on everyone's list. You'll happily go with it, but if your dream bint comes along, you're off. Malifaux falls into this as well, as again it appeals to a specific aesthetic. Not played it meself, and not too convinced by the models, but heard nothing but good things about the mechanics.

So again, GW simply cannot be all things to all people. Their size and scope inherently prevent this. Yet all too often, both sides of the coin seem to consider themselves an automatic majority, utterly discounting the realy majority, those who enjoy the games, but aren't as rabid as us.


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Platuan4th wrote:I disagree. Your theory is very dependent on vets.
The fact that newbies come into the game complaining about a lot of the same things we do means it's GW, not US.

I disagree I'm afraid.

Granted, I'm talking from a different view point, but the kids I introduced and ran through beginners are every bit as keen as I was at their end, if not more so because their parents buy them loads of stuff, whereas I had to save up. Granted on the interwebs, there appear to be noobs whinging, but I do wonder how many are just chirping with the 'incrowd' online.

And it is the Vets that complain the most. 'This has changed, that has changed, they should do this, they should do that'. It's as if a few gaming under your belt makes you an expert on all things hobby. Whilst I have differing opinions to many, I try not to present them as fact, and apologise if this post comes across differently.

Essentially, all too often opinion is dressed up as absolute fact, with a negative one for some reason trumping a positive one.

Mr Mystery wrote:Nope. It's not the price.

Nope, nor is it Change.

Hell, it's not even different rules etc.

It's us. We are a product of their success.

Take me, former employee (no less than three stints) loyal to the product, a total gaming whore, but most interested in friendly, narrative gaming. I buys what I likes, and I likes what I buys. Yet there are some aspects I wish they'd do more with. More terrain for a start (please...modular river/roads) more Fantasy novels from BL, plus sundry other niggles. The rest of it I'm happy with.

Then, we have purely for example, HBMC. Apart from the gaming whore aspect, we're pretty much diametrically opposed on everything else. How exactly is GW meant to please us both? Neither of us is in the right, as there is no right or wrong here.

If you like, we're the spoiled brats to GW's parents. They physically cannot please every single player. That they manage to keep their core gamers happy is a small miracle.

Some want a game based on competitive gaming, others want a more flexible ruleset, with custom options (like VDR used to do). Whilst not exactly mutually exclusive, every gamer has their preference as to which has greater precedent.

So face up to it. GW do really rather well, all things considered.

I would like to offer a different perspective.

Toyota somehow manages to please all kinds of "vehicle whores" no matter whether people want a mini runabout for taking the children to school, a sporty Lexus, a pick-up truck or a massive government armoured limo. Toyota also produces robots.

They do it by not being fething useless.

I find it pathetic that a 200 million dollar corporation can only manage to produce three core products, two of which are variants of each other, and have been on the market for 30 years.

Kilkrazy wrote:Toyota somehow manages to please all kinds of "vehicle whores" no matter whether people want a mini runabout for taking the children to school, a sporty Lexus, a pick-up truck or a massive government armoured limo. Toyota also produces robots.

Good point and example. If GW isn't here to please everyone who are they here to please???? Toyato screwed up, it was found out that many of their products were not up to customer's satisfaction. What did they do? Recalled miliions of dollars worth of product and began the long road to set the wrongs right.

What does GW say when they obsolete rules for items that they currently sell? Sorry there bloke. All in a days business. Hey remember you do have the best quality minature avaiable.

The number one problem is GW has is the perception of value on their product and services to the consumer base.

Value Value Value.

Those who complain feel that they are not getting enough 'value' for their moneys. Whereas people who buy WM/H and other games justify their costs by seeing that their model has more value in the game or respect it via the company.

Kilkrazy wrote:

I find it pathetic that a 200 million dollar corporation can only manage to produce three core products, two of which are variants of each other, and have been on the market for 30 years.

This, a million times this.

I cannot fathom how they can rationalise, folks don't need to spend as much to play Specialist Games, so we'll kan em. The number of armies I started in the past for 40K or Fantasy, because I grew to like a faction via their Mordheim gang, or Blood Bowl, or even Epic, number in the teens, when you are thinking about the few hundred pounds each of those cost, thats a scary way to bring folks in. I also knew plenty of people doing the same through out the years.

I see them raise the odd snippet at their shareholder meetings, like Lotr could be a gateway game to 40K or Warhammer. Thats exactly what the specalist games where, yes they where cheap to play, and some may have been playing SG and thats all, but the number of folks I see note they came into 40K or Fantasy via the SG route on these and other forums, makes it crazy to me they have effectively dropped it. To stop supporting that lot for me is the bigger reason for their issues when the Lotr bubble burst, hell I'm convnced it made that whole situation all the worse.

I think we are somewhat to blame, and no they can't please everyone. But the toyota reference is a good one.

The prices personally don't bug me too much, but that's probably because I don't spend more than I can afford and I still like what I buy. But, at the same time, I don't know how I'd recommend the game to a new player because I know they're gonna have to fork over $500 or more just to play with me. You can start small, but still.. most games are played around 2000 pts and new players are gonna want to get to the same level as everyone else eventually.

Kilkrazy wrote:

I find it pathetic that a 200 million dollar corporation can only manage to produce three core products, two of which are variants of each other, and have been on the market for 30 years.

This.

Let's compare another model-production company, that uses various plastics, has developed many variations of their original business ideas, has marketed pretty much everywhere that GW does, as well as pulling in a serious amount of cash over their several decades of operation: Lego, Inc.

They can continually come up with new material, new models (by the buttload, mind), sets that are way more complicated than anything GW has ever made (like the collector's edition Millenium Falcon, about 11,000 pieces), can come up with several thousand unique model components (how many types of Lego bricks are there? 10,000? 100,000?)

They market video games that have sold more, have more cultural presence in the Western world (someone from the east would have to verify there), and are sold in more mainstream places than ANY warhammer, 40k, or LotR product made by GW itself or any of it's subsidiary companies.

The reasons for this?

They can all be found here.


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Kilkrazy wrote:

I find it pathetic that a 200 million dollar corporation can only manage to produce three core products, two of which are variants of each other, and have been on the market for 30 years.

This.

Let's compare another model-production company, that uses various plastics, has developed many variations of their original business ideas, has marketed pretty much everywhere that GW does, as well as pulling in a serious amount of cash over their several decades of operation: Lego, Inc.

They can continually come up with new material, new models (by the buttload, mind), sets that are way more complicated than anything GW has ever made (like the collector's edition Millenium Falcon, about 11,000 pieces), can come up with several thousand unique model components (how many types of Lego bricks are there? 10,000? 100,000?)

They market video games that have sold more, have more cultural presence in the Western world (someone from the east would have to verify there), and are sold in more mainstream places than ANY warhammer, 40k, or LotR product made by GW itself or any of it's subsidiary companies.

The reasons for this?

They can all be found here.

Mr Mystery wrote:It's us.

Necros wrote:I think we are somewhat to blame,

Anyone else wondering where the Dakka Meme guys are with their BLAME THE VICTIM?

This seems the type of thing they're always jumping on.

Missed their bus?

GW's number one problem? It's a publicly owned company.... and it's run by a pack of arse-picking feth monkeys.

Morathi's Darkest Sin wrote:Missed their CRASSUS ARMOURED ASSAULT TRANSPORT?

Fixed.


I'm sorry, I'm sorry. Anyway, I agree in part, but there is a difference between "Not being able to please everyone" and "seemingly going out of their way to **** over everyone".

GalaxyGames wrote:The number one problem is GW has is the perception of value on their product and services to the consumer base.

Value Value Value.

Those who complain feel that they are not getting enough 'value' for their moneys. Whereas people who buy WM/H and other games justify their costs by seeing that their model has more value in the game or respect it via the company.

While I do think that's an issue and that GW prices are just as ridiculous as some of their competitors, I think GW's biggest problem is that the changes they tend to make are seen as confrontational to their fanbase. They bite the hand that feeds them and then expect the waiter to thank them for the wound. They've been the top dog for many years in the minis industry and that position breeds arrogance. Vets tend to complain more because they've been through it more times than noobs to the hobby and have noticed a pattern that doesn't correspond with the PR.

OmegaStriker wrote:Let's compare another model-production company, that uses various plastics, has developed many variations of their original business ideas, has marketed pretty much everywhere that GW does, as well as pulling in a serious amount of cash over their several decades of operation: Lego, Inc.

They can continually come up with new material, new models (by the buttload, mind), sets that are way more complicated than anything GW has ever made (like the collector's edition Millenium Falcon, about 11,000 pieces), can come up with several thousand unique model components (how many types of Lego bricks are there? 10,000? 100,000?)

I disprove Lego as a valid example because they too are going down the perverbial toilet (to me anyway, and I have LOTS of Lego). As a person who liked the models from a small age you can create whatever the heck you felt like building, and then pour a bucket of imagination into it. That was then, bak in the 90's. 00's saw the models get better but start to use more complex parts and all sorts that effectively removed the imagination and forced in realism. Take models of this decade so far and yeah, they make be good in quality but there's a lack of realism, more a promotion of playsets. I use the "new" Egyptain sets as an example. That and like GW they have a habit of redoing models - UNLIKE GW Lego remakes the models again, and again, and again, and they get gradually worse. My main argument for this is the ARC170 Fighter for the Clones. I swear that model's been redone 3-4 times and all of them look about the same. Most of the Star Wars range has been redone and made worse IMHO, particularly the Clone Wars stuff (which is B-A-D).



... oh yeah there was a point to this Yes, as consumers we can be fussy. Yes, as consumers we expect exceptional goods for the price we must pay. And Yes, as onsumers we always want the next best model or rules that makes us more happy with our current produce. What GW aren't doing is offering good prices for their produce. Is their produce good? Yes, yes it is. Is it worth the pennies? ... in honestly, no. Not what me as a teen Brit has to pay anyway. Tac sqauds were £15 once (I miss it), now they're near £25. In the space of a few years. That's shameful really.

So, we're the problem and we should be grateful that GW is taking the time to produce such an amazing, fantastic product and we mustn't complain about it because GW knows what's best for us?

Yeah, feth that.

GW can very easily please 99% of its player-base. All it needs to do is get down off of its ivory tower, realise that its customers are adults, and treat them as such.

I would post more but Kilkrazy pretty much summed it all up.

L. Wrex

I agree.
It's totally my fault that GW doesn't give me enough for my dollar in their model kits.

Damn me for expecting reasonable prices!


Eric
(Does not see this thread ending well)

He only beats me because he LOVES me!

This really does just sound like making excuses for GW.

Every company has to please a customer base where different people want different things. It's a basic part of doing business. If GW can't do that, it's GW's fault, and I don't care how unreasonably unpleasable GW's customers can be. If they want their customers' money, pleasing the customers is their job. End of story.

And I am pretty skeptical of the notion that GW is being pulled in too many different directions to satisfy too many different kinds of players. GW's products are about as niche in the model-making world as you can get. In 40K everything has to be GRIMM DARK unless you play either of 2 armies, one of which gets very token support. The scale is so niche that they get accused of inventing their own just so no one else's minis are compatible. How is that broad appeal?

Where's the game for people who like model ships? Discontinued. Where's the game for people who like giant sprawling battlefields where the infantry are no bigger than a piece of corn? Discontinued. Where's the skirmish game? Discontinued. Where's the 54mm roleplaying game? Discontinued. Where's the racing game? Never existed! Where's the aircraft game? Discontinued. Where's the game where you spend several hundred dollars to make an army of 32mm identical space marines? Ooh, they've got that. Which color of space marine do you like? Do you want the angry space marines, or the evil angry space marines?

No, GW's problems all come down to management. Any competent management could turn the resources and IP they have into something that at least pleases its niche audience. But because they have this bewildering notion that it's better to dupe new players into buying their product than to keep old players' repeat business, they just can't get things to work. In what other business is it a good idea to trade old customers for new? A happy customer tells 2 people, an unhappy customer tells 10. That's business 101. I can barely manage to haggle for a tea from the bazaar on holiday and even I know that much.

I can respect people who still like GW. I can't afford their product any more, but for people who still can, all power to you. But I simply cannot respect anyone who spouts the opinion that GW has made no mistakes over the years and everything that they get criticized for is something that is somehow the critic's fault. It's one thing to be willing to forgive GW's faults and still do business with them. It's another altogether to put on blinders and claim those faults don't exist.

GW do well with models.
Rules and fluff possibly divide opinion more but overall is not a bad job they do there either.

The problem is not us. I am not spoiled by GW.
Am still relatively new to gaming and GW won me over then lost me due to the crazy business decisions they make.

Furthermore GW and their most fervent loyal supporters have repeatedly told me I am not wealthy enough for GW.

I got sick and tired of being told to stop whining GW is a business nay a niche business that is a Porsche so they can do what they like

Have decided that they are correct.
So I will spend my pennies elsewhere.

One day I really hope the sky falls on the heads of the Top Brass at GW. One day I would like for sensible businessmen to take over and guide the company.

Mystery has evolved.
Mystery is now Ultra-Apologist.

If you really think that we're the problem with GW, after all the ham-fisted and simply mind boggling bs they've pulled over the week, then you truly are as deluded as most of us think you are.

And leave me the feth outta this Grotsnik.

And sadly, this all just goes to prove my point.

Not a single attempt at a dialogue. Just more of the usual 'I R HATE GW AND U IS SCUMZ FOR LIKING THEMS!'.

And yup, it's the same old dozen or so turning up and vomiting their bile without actually attempting to engage and converse around the subject.

Sorry, but whilst the Toyota thing is an interesting aside, it's not a good analogy, as unlike GW, Toyota have serious, and multple, competition. Ford, Hyundai, Lexus, Ferrari, Porsche, Vauxhall and so on. GW might well have competition, but seriously, none of them are anywhere near GW in terms of size and market share. Whilst the reported 90%+ seems and overestimation (though that was from an apparently independent source) GW easily have 60% of the market. And to keep that many people happy, is no small miracle.

I often see 'Warmahordes blahblahsuckycockyblahblah'. But then, as their gubbinz, unlike GW's, are private, I utterly fail to see how this sort of statement can be said with anything but anecdotal, localised basis?

Mr Mystery wrote:Not a single attempt at a dialogue.

You didn't start this thread for a dialogue and you know it.

A thread set up for dialogue doesn't start with an absolutist statement saying "I'm right and you're wrong".

If only I could sing 'wrong wrong wrong, wrong wrong wrong, YOU'RE WRONG' over the Interwebs I could.

This entire thread is about *opinion* and the vast gulf twixt that, and fact.

I genuinely could not give the flying proverbial what you think of GW. I enjoy their product, and I think the company do very well, all things considered.

This thread, if you'd care to extract cranium from rectum, is about discussing what GW can do to please you, and accepting that as others are guaranteed to have a different viewpoint, the act of pleasing every single mindless little cretin on the Interwebs is an impossible task.

Mr Mystery wrote:If only I could sing 'wrong wrong wrong, wrong wrong wrong, YOU'RE WRONG' over the Interwebs I could.

Oh really?

Try re-reading the thread. People provide examples and comparisons and you dismiss them out of hand because YOU think they don't apply, despite the fact that more than one person has discussed it and shown how it DOES apply.

You then go on to insult GW critics AND PP fans because you're simply tired of seeing it.

You even say you don't care what we think about GW.

You've made up your mind and you're not looking to get it changed, you did NOT start this to discuss things.

Not looking for you to change my mind. That is for me to do.

Am looking for a vaguely, dimly constructive conversation, without the usual mud slinging. You know the sort...less then entirely negative view of a pricey hobby instantly making you a mindless fanboi...that sort of thing.

But I see again you prefer to go straight on the offensive.

Mr Mystery wrote:But I see again you prefer to go straight on the offensive.

Except I didn't. If I had, then it would have happened first time I posted.

Sadly, on both sides, this is the problem with reading one's on words, you instantly read into the context, which may not come across.

I read your post as overly aggressive, in the usual mindless Dakka way, where it was intended as a topic for open and frank discussion.

Mr Mystery wrote:I read your post as overly aggressive, in the usual mindless Dakka way, where it was intended as a topic for open and frank discussion.

?

All I said was I disagree because newbies tend to complain about the same things.

Honestly, I would agree that something was us if it was just us complaining, but kids complaining point to GW being more at fault than us.

Mr Mystery, your theory doesnt work because there are 2 obvious types of customers.

The newbie that just got into warhammer,

and the veterans they are expanding their armies.