Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

I am fairly new to wargaming and feel a bit apprehensive about voicing my own mild opinion in the midst of all these strong ones, but wanted to share my own experience as someone not familiar with the industry. I wanted to start modeling and playing a wargame with my roommate, so we did some research and found GW to be the best choice in terms of player base and support, mainly because you can get so much stuff second hand and everyone has heard of it. As a new player, I want to know I am buying something from a company that will exist in 10 years time, and if raising prices or switching materials helps see that happen, then so be it. You can say it is a poor business decision or whatever, but the people who actually decide have a lot more at stake than their hobby, its their livelihood and legacy. Once again, this is just my first impression as one of these "new players" everyone keeps referencing, and for the record, I have bought two armies in 6 months since starting, but mostly second hand or from ebay.

CODY! wrote: Once again, this is just my first impression as one of these "new players" everyone keeps referencing, and for the record, I have bought two armies in 6 months since starting, but mostly second hand or from ebay.

Sounds like GW's business strategy working as intended then. New player gets enticed into the hobby, realises how soul-crushingly expensive it is, buys army from ebay....

Yes Filbert but notice also the:

As a new player, I want to know I am buying something from a company that will exist in 10 years time, and if raising prices or switching materials helps see that happen, then so be it.

Recognition that the price hikes will come but it won't stop people throwing money at GW.

Cody, tomorrow has no certainty about it.
If you can predict what will be happening ten years hence, quit fooling around with toy soldiers and start investing, make a fortune, buy GW out and set things right!

To quote from Jim Wallman's "Starship Marine" rules...

"The scale of toy soldier is 25mm or 1/72, and any make of figures can be used - although Games Workshop figures are not recommended for two reasons...they are heavily over-priced, and the models are much too big. Anything else will do."

Kilkrazy wrote:To quote from Jim Wallman's "Starship Marine" rules...

"The scale of toy soldier is 25mm or 1/72, and any make of figures can be used - although Games Workshop figures are not recommended for two reasons...they are heavily over-priced, and the models are much too big. Anything else will do."

Ha! Nice dig. And the guy's right. Aren't GW models now even pushing past the boundaries of 'Heroic' 28mm?

i like the 28mm, i think that it gives the models some substance, now i dont think they should get any larger, but i do think that the too expensive part is completely accurate

Kilkrazy wrote:

A Moderator wrote:Guys, especially people who disagree with the original point, let's remember the core Dakka rule -- attack the argument NOT the user.

Mr. Mystery should not be personally attacked just because you disagree with his opinion.

Thank you.

This really should go both ways.

mikhaila wrote:

Andrew1975 wrote:
1 you are right, it would not take much for GW to implement something but they never have in the past. Get more active on the internet, get rid of WD and put all that content on the website to drive sales on said website. Same with army and rule books. Paper media is dead, it is far cheaper to do web content. It could be subscription based, but also free, the traffic and direct linkage with purchasing would make it worth it to GW. Look at BOW, if GW did a site like that, people would come to check the news and purchase. As it is now I have to go to 4-5 different sites for GW news if I want it. It would be worth it just for the marketing insight and consumer data collection.

If anything the costs of GW makes people choose between other factors and GW. I knew guys that had GW and kids, they didn't have to choose, but now you are almost forced to. 40K or gas for my car, hmmmmm. GW or clothes for my kids hmmmmmm. That wasn't a choice before.

Replying to these two points:
1) Over and over I see people that work on web design tell me 'print is dead'. I think this is a case of everything looking like a nail when all you have is a hammer. Yes, GW could do more with their website. Everyone could. But it doesn't mean they need to get rid of White Dwarf. Taking the magazine off racks will lose some exposure. Driving all your attention to your website will also lose some stores that sell your product. Less exposure will hurt in the long term.

5) People will always choose between GW and Kids. Kids are expensive as hell, both in money and time. Gas prices going up aren't something GW controls.) People are always going to have to make a choice betwen life and hobbies. It's not even a contest when you get married and have kids. Those are huge sweeping changes in your life. GW could be free and people would have to drop the hobby.

Well let's be honest. You are a shop owner, so you would not like people to buy online. I completely understand your apprehension. I own a bar, people a could easily get my product anywhere much cheaper IF my only product was alchohal. This is where bars fail, they sell the wrong product. My product is not booze, it's a social setting where you can drink booze with like minded people and have a good time doing it. That is my real product, and it's free to my customers. I work harder on my atmosphere and events than I do buying the goods that I actually sell. I've never been to your store, and I don't know how you run it, but focus on selling your store not your products. I see this so many times when I go to hobby shops. You really don't have to worry about good customers buying direct from GW, I've rarely seen a store that charges as much as GW do on their website. Granted, customers can't bring booze from outside into my shop, so my model is different. Sorry if that came off as preachy, it was just meant as an observation.

NOBODY but newbs buys WD! It's been basically useless for 10 years! It's expensive and really doesn't add anything. It looks like they may go back to the old format of making it somewhat relevant, but I'm not going to pay $8 a month for a magazine. I bet even at $8 they are barely braking even. See most magazines make money through ad revenue, WD does not. Switch to something that actually ads value to the company.

The plain fact is that if GW built a site like BOW and released their info there first, people would go there and buy. I mean that's how most of these sites pay for themselves through sponsorships and sales. Instead of basically farming that out, GW could do that all by themselves and have better content control. Why am I watching unprofessional battle reports on BOLS with unpainted and proxy models, when I could be watching the latest beautifully painted releases battle it out in a well produced manner by GW on their own site. Its a complete business fail!

"People will always have to choose between GW and kids"....for the foreseeable future. This was not the case when you could pick up a rule book and 30 marines and a paint kit for $40, or even $80. That same purchase now (granted the models are prettier, but they don't function any different) would cost you (30 marines $120, Rulebook $50, paint set ( smaller quantity) $30) a grand total of $200 now. $40 or even $80 requires little thought, $200 is a tough decision. I knew plenty of people that used to play after major life changes, they don't play now because they can't afford it, and other companies treat their customers better. I'm waiting to see what Mantic does with warpath, since BOW are their boys, I'm guessing they will get some great exposure.

infinite_array wrote:

Kilkrazy wrote:To quote from Jim Wallman's "Starship Marine" rules...

"The scale of toy soldier is 25mm or 1/72, and any make of figures can be used - although Games Workshop figures are not recommended for two reasons...they are heavily over-priced, and the models are much too big. Anything else will do."

Ha! Nice dig. And the guy's right. Aren't GW models now even pushing past the boundaries of 'Heroic' 28mm?

Oh, they are well beyond that and have been for years.

That's why I laugh at the claims of awesome detail in GM figures. It isn't hard to cram detail into a model most of whose parts are nearer 54mm scale.

Why do terminators have to be put on 40mm bases? </rhetorical>

CODY! wrote:I am fairly new to wargaming and feel a bit apprehensive about voicing my own mild opinion in the midst of all these strong ones, but wanted to share my own experience as someone not familiar with the industry. I wanted to start modeling and playing a wargame with my roommate, so we did some research and found GW to be the best choice in terms of player base and support, mainly because you can get so much stuff second hand and everyone has heard of it. As a new player, I want to know I am buying something from a company that will exist in 10 years time, and if raising prices or switching materials helps see that happen, then so be it. You can say it is a poor business decision or whatever, but the people who actually decide have a lot more at stake than their hobby, its their livelihood and legacy. Once again, this is just my first impression as one of these "new players" everyone keeps referencing, and for the record, I have bought two armies in 6 months since starting, but mostly second hand or from ebay.

What do YOU know?
You're just some stupid newbie!!!

I kid.

Seriously, though, welcome to the hobby. It truly is fun.
You are right, re: large player base and 2nd hand stuff.

I understand your point. Can't say I agree, but...

Welcome, anyway. : )

Eric

Once again, this is just my first impression as one of these "new players" everyone keeps referencing, and for the record, I have bought two armies in 6 months since starting, but mostly second hand or from ebay.

The key word is Ebay.

I think this thread has served its purpose and has been a very informative fun ride.

Now the only thing that will prove either side right is time. We will have to wait and see what happens.

On a positive note lots of companies go through hard times and come out better for it. Hopefully this will be the case with GW. They do good work as well as make some big mistakes so all is not lost.

I personally have put my armies on the shelf and have moved on to other games. I will have fun with those and in a few years 5 to 10 I will check back and see what is going on. Who knows maybe I will be that new newb to keep GW's strategy going....

Mr Mystery wrote:Nope. It's not the price.

Nope, nor is it Change.

Hell, it's not even different rules etc.

It's us. We are a product of their success.

Take me, former employee (no less than three stints) loyal to the product, a total gaming whore, but most interested in friendly, narrative gaming. I buys what I likes, and I likes what I buys. Yet there are some aspects I wish they'd do more with. More terrain for a start (please...modular river/roads) more Fantasy novels from BL, plus sundry other niggles. The rest of it I'm happy with.

Then, we have purely for example, HBMC. Apart from the gaming whore aspect, we're pretty much diametrically opposed on everything else. How exactly is GW meant to please us both? Neither of us is in the right, as there is no right or wrong here.

If you like, we're the spoiled brats to GW's parents. They physically cannot please every single player. That they manage to keep their core gamers happy is a small miracle.

Some want a game based on competitive gaming, others want a more flexible ruleset, with custom options (like VDR used to do). Whilst not exactly mutually exclusive, every gamer has their preference as to which has greater precedent.

So face up to it. GW do really rather well, all things considered.

My friends here we have a classic case of the Battered House Wife Syndrome
Its our fault GW hits us, we didn't make them the Turkey Pot Pies they wanted quick enough

It's more like Stockholm Syndrome.

Game Workshops customers are its biggest problem?

I dont think so, it reminds me of The Soup Nazi ..... 'No Thunderwolf Cavalry for you NEXT!!!!'

A businesses number one concern is to make money.

A businesses biggest problem by far is no customers.

Sucess in business comes from meeting the demands of the market.

The level of success comes from volume of customers and the bottom line.

No big business has ever or will ever keep every one happy.

GW's may be increasing their profits in the short term to the detriment of their survival in the lorm term.

Im a customer not a problem lol

Meeting the needs of as many of your customers as possible while remaining profitable is a good recipe for success.

GW plcs number one problem is....

A complete lack of synergy through its buisness , leading to diffuse and contradictory corperate directives...

Good buisninesses listen to thier customer base and provide the goods and services that actualy ask for at competative prices.

GW plc simply listens to the ever diminishing demoghraphic that like what GW plc corperate directors decide to do.

Lanrak wrote:GW plcs number one problem is....

A complete lack of synergy through its buisness , leading to diffuse and contradictory corperate directives...

Good buisninesses listen to thier customer base and provide the goods and services that actualy ask for at competative prices.

GW plc simply listens to the ever diminishing demoghraphic that like what GW plc corperate directors decide to do.

Trouble is though, all sides involved like to declare themselves the majority, and therein lies the problem. I now it's a bit lame, but what about the thousands of gamers with no strength of opinion one way or the other? You don't tend to hear from them, as they simply aren't that fussed one way or the other. What percentage do they make up? I'd wager they're a majority to themselves, but then by their very silence, they are impossible to quantify, no?

Mr Mystery wrote:Think of it as the girl that everyone agrees is pretty, but who might not be the first on everyone's list. You'll happily go with it, but if your dream bint comes along, you're off.

And another thing! Why are women so under-represented in the hobby, eh?

Mr Mystery.
I forgot to say most companies have a clearly defined demoghraphic based on suitability to thier product.

GW plc seem to market thier products to the easiest to please, irrspective of thier suitablity to thier product.

The 'GW hobby' (TM) involves the use of solvents adhesives and sharp blades/ tools.It requlres a large investment in time and money to gain the full benifit of it.And having a fully rounded social skills is realy helpfull too .

So the ideal demoghraphic would be mature, responcible,and patient .

Just remind me who Tom Kirby belives GW plc is selling to ?
Oh thats right '...kiddies...'
Because every 'Toys R Us' is stocked with ;- knives saws drills solvent , and 'grim dark' visions of a war torn world full of despair , genocide and totalinarianism, for the 'kiddies' to enjoy...
How wrong can they be!

GW plc s range of products are NOT for 'kiddies.'

They are most suited to mature responcible patient gamers and collectors.(Of any age.)

(I know some 11 year olds that fall into this group , and some 30 year olds that dont!)

Linsay40k.
Which hobby are you refering to?
Table top wargameing in general ;-
Many women are not interested in the subject matter.(Most of the women/girls I know prefer RPGs , and painting minatures to playing 'wargames')The only women I know that play wargames prefer fictional settings.(Probably because some guys are so OTT about historical accuracy in historical wargames .)

40k specificaly.
Because it is written for 13 year old boys!

Lanrak wrote:
So the ideal demoghraphic would be mature, responcible,and patient .

Just remind me who Tom Kirby belives GW plc is selling to ?
Oh thats right '...kiddies...'

You know the more I see some of the fanboy posts on here defending the way GW treats its customers one can only conclude that GW targets these people, generally people with no concept of the value of money and generally seem to bend over the counter every time GW announces a price rise dropping their trousers.

And another thing! Why are women so under-represented in the hobby, eh?

I well they tried, but it was too subtle! Most people didn't get the Twilight reference that was Blood angels and Space wolves! They should have made commanders Jacob and Edward.

yeah,

Andrew1975 wrote:

And another thing! Why are women so under-represented in the hobby, eh?

I well they tried, but it was too subtle! Most people didn't get the Twilight reference that was Blood angels and Space wolves! They should have made commanders Jacob and Edward.

God Damn it Lego! where's my 'Like' button!

Panic...

God Damn it Lego! where's my 'Like' button!

If you don't know where your G-spot is, not sure this is the right way of going about trying to find out.

And another thing! Why are women so under-represented in the hobby, eh?

I well they tried, but it was too subtle! Most people didn't get the Twilight reference that was Blood angels and Space wolves! They should have made commanders Jacob and Edward.

Chibi Bodge-Battle wrote:

God Damn it Lego! where's my 'Like' button!

If you don't know where your G-spot is, not sure this is the right way of going about trying to find out.

Asked and answered. Most women don't really want to deal with us juvenile menfolk.

Andrew1975 wrote:Well let's be honest. You are a shop owner, so you would not like people to buy online. I completely understand your apprehension.

Don't mistake annoyance for apprehension. ) I sell comics and games. I get the "print is dead" crap told to me all the time. After the first 100 or so it's just aggravating. Print is here, so is the internet. People have the choice to support either medium.

And honestly, I really don't care if someone buys online or not, that's their choice. I focus on my store, not how people get their models in the rest of the world. If people support my store, I support them by staying in business and giving them events and a place to play.

Your statement that "only Noobs buy WD" is an incorrect . You have no idea how many people buy and enjoy the magazine. I sell over 35 copies a month, and maybe one or two of those go to new players. The overwhelming majority sell to people that have been collecting or playing the game for years. I won't say that the sample of people in my store is the average, but obviously it refrutes your statement.

mikhaila wrote:

Andrew1975 wrote:Well let's be honest. You are a shop owner, so you would not like people to buy online. I completely understand your apprehension.

Don't mistake annoyance for apprehension. ) I sell comics and games. I get the "print is dead" crap told to me all the time. After the first 100 or so it's just aggravating. Print is here, so is the internet. People have the choice to support either medium.

And honestly, I really don't care if someone buys online or not, that's their choice. I focus on my store, not how people get their models in the rest of the world. If people support my store, I support them by staying in business and giving them events and a place to play.

Your statement that "only Noobs buy WD" is an incorrect . You have no idea how many people buy and enjoy the magazine. I sell over 35 copies a month, and maybe one or two of those go to new players. The overwhelming majority sell to people that have been collecting or playing the game for years. I won't say that the sample of people in my store is the average, but obviously it refrutes your statement.

I'll can admit that markets are different, but I rarely have seen vet buy white dwarf, except for the odd copy here and there that has something specific in it. Obviously some people buy it, but it could be done much effectively as a good website.

Like with all theories… we try to explain ONE that describes everything for everybody.

And to illustrate our theory, we draw conclusions from the two extreme ends… only.

When I first got introduced to GW in Australia during the mid-1980s, there were over 200 locals listed in UKWD (for Australia) as selling the product, numerous wargaming clubs, and thousands of veteran wargamers (having grown up with Airfix et al, Micro Armour et al, Battle Tech et al, and others through D&D et al).

With not one GW staff member, let alone a shop, in sight.

We, the veterans introduced our friends, our family, our children, and a few strangers to the GW world.

We, the veterans, created and built the GW following in Australia.

We, the veterans, created the thriving market in Australia.

GW saw the money, and moved in with their shops… now numbering 34, while the original 200+ were reduced to 42, because, while GW were building their retail empire, around 160 shops closed down… their reward from GW “helping and investing” in the local GW gaming world.

Although there are now around 140 locals listed in WD… that’s only 100 new shops, because they cannot compete with GW retail strategy (selling at GWUK factory cost not GWAU wholesale cost).

The United States is a similar story, however, the UK is not… the UK always had a GW shop and/or factory presence to influence the market and therefore sales.

It is true that the enticement of noobs, at the GW shop or even through the locals or at the clubs, is good tactics to create a never ending supply (loose description) of future customers.

But, if these players become veterans who could introduce the game to others, pyramid style expansion, and they are treated like the current veterans are treated… well, the numbers show the way of the future for GW plc… reduced sales volume (the profits mean nothing on the customers level, because they only increase with the price rises, and not even proportionally).

This will lead to higher prices, which will generate fewer sales volume, which will lead to higher prices to keep the same (more or less) profit as previous years, which will generate fewer sales volume…. Get the drift here?

At a certain point… soon… the income will be less than the outgoings.

This will lead to closure of GW shops… they are already aiming for one man shops, what’s cheaper than that?

GW has only one choice to remain on top – change to a modern business plan for the future… introduce fair prices across the globe, use the internet (no, really USE it), mix print with epub productions, really really support the existing customers, and listen to the vets.

No, you can’t please everybody all the time, however, you can do things right… which will make more sales volume, hence more profits… and if the price rises now and again, GW will be supported with pleasure.

And, for reference, I still buy WD... my first one was #124.

I have bought into three GW systems, spending over A$25,000 in almost 25years. I do not overly gripe at the price or the rules... I believe I have a large stake in GW position in Australia... I should be of some importance to them, like many others... but not so.

Like religion (I believe in god, just not the business of religion)... I believe in Warhammer 40K, just not the current GW business.

Mik

+1

Well said Lord Castellan Mik. Well said

@Lord Castellen Agreed very good comment and example


@Mikhaila Print will never be dead it may go through some changes but it will always be around. Nothing and I mean nothing can beat having something new in your hands.
This isn't just me speaking either magazine sale all over the world have never diminished no matter what is going on. It is a medium that seems to be mainly unaffected by the internet. LOL

Nothing and I mean nothing can beat having something new in your hands

What if that something new is poop. Don't care how fresh it is, I don't want to hold it, thanking you kindly.